Brewmaster Haste

[Buster4932 0]

Most places you look say the stat priority for Brewmaster is

1. Agility
2. Bonus Armor
3. Haste (until you are comfortable)
4. Mastery
5. Versatility
6. Multistrike
7. Critical Strike

What is a good amount of haste I should be going for? How do I know when to stop going for haste?

 

Thank you

Edited January 24, 2015 by Buster4932

[Orthios 271]

Most places you look say the stat priority for Brewmaster is

1. Agility
2. Bonus Armor
3. Haste (until you are comfortable)
4. Mastery
5. Versatility
6. Multistrike
7. Critical Strike

What is a good amount of haste I should be going for? How do I know when to stop going for haste?

 

Thank you

Haste is good so that you aren't waiting on energy to refill for Keg Smash or Jab, and once you get to the point where you are comfortable with your energy regen, then you can focus on other stats.  I'm sitting at about 600 haste, and with ascension this puts my energy regen at a comfortable level for me.

[Lockybalboa 618]

600-700 is about what I aim for most of the time. makes it nicely smooth.

[BrewmasterJi 5]

NONONONO. Both the above posters are wrong.

Haste is bad, you want as low haste as possible. The only reason to use Jab is to stop you sitting at 100 energy when Keg Smash is on cooldown.

Your rotation is simple, Keg Smash on cooldown, tiger palm to fill gcds -> 70+ energy and Keg Smash has more than 3 secs left on CD? Then and only then Jab.

Replace Jab with Expel Harm if you're low HP.

You do not need haste to play BrM, and it certainly wont help make things easier.

You should also be using Power Strikes. Ascension is the wprst talent of the three. If you're uncomfortable with Power Strikes then Chi Brew isnt far behind in terms of Chi Per Minute.

[ralwn 1]

it really pains me to see the guides written that way for stat priority since haste is so worthless for mitigation. 600 haste is more than enough. You should never go above this amount unless you are literally forced to (example: most highmaul gear has haste accompanying it and even worse is that much of it is haste-focused too). Our T17 bonuses make haste even less worthwhile (skip the tier helmet btw and wear the other 4)

 

The key to energy management is using Tiger Palm (and not grabbing more haste). Try to get in 2 tiger palms for every keg smash you use. You can do this and never energy cap (even at 800 haste + ascension). Doing so will also give you no empty globals in your rotation.

[Lockybalboa 618]

NONONONO. Both the above posters are wrong.

 

 

[ralwn 1]

NONONONO. Both the above posters are wrong.

Haste is bad, you want as low haste as possible. The only reason to use Jab is to stop you sitting at 100 energy when Keg Smash is on cooldown.

Your rotation is simple, Keg Smash on cooldown, tiger palm to fill gcds -> 70+ energy and Keg Smash has more than 3 secs left on CD? Then and only then Jab.

Replace Jab with Expel Harm if you're low HP.

You do not need haste to play BrM, and it certainly wont help make things easier.

You should also be using Power Strikes. Ascension is the wprst talent of the three. If you're uncomfortable with Power Strikes then Chi Brew isnt far behind in terms of Chi Per Minute.

I think 0 haste is just as bad as stacking haste honestly. You do need some.

 

 

1. Agility
2. Bonus Armor
3. Haste (until you are comfortable)
4. Mastery
5. Versatility
6. Multistrike
7. Critical Strike

Just want to point out about this stat priority that multistrike is pretty worthless for your tanking and shouldn't be above crit in your stat priority. You can multistrike heals + get healing orbs but your baseline multistrike provides enough for this.

 

Only add multistrike if forced to or when its later in the expansion and doing so would add more dps than just stacking crit (standard disclaimer that dps is a secondary consideration until your mitigation is already solid).

 

Item level > bonus armor > haste (no less than 400, no more than 600) > Crit >= mastery >= versatility > multistrike > haste past 600

Edited February 7, 2015 by ralwn

[Halbaradkenafin 0]

 

He may be mad but he's right.

 

I think 0 haste is just as bad as stacking haste honestly. You do need some.

 

Some haste is unavoidable but you still want as little as possible.

 

Item level > bonus armor > haste (no less than 400, no more than 600) > Crit >= mastery >= versatility > multistrike > haste past 600

For max survival:

Bonus armour > agility > mastery > Versatility >crit >Multistrike >>>>> haste

For dps (with good survivability):

Bonus armour > agility > crit > mastery >Multistrike > Versatility >>>> haste

[Lockybalboa 618]

 He may be mad but he's right.

 

 

Wasn't arguing the validity of his statement, just pointing out that calm answers are more helpful.

 

 

If anyone knows of someone that has done deep theorycrafting on brewmaster, let me know who they are/where they post. I've only picked up BM as my main with WoD so I'm working behind the curve and the theorycrafting community for the spec seems really weak.

 

Bored today so I ran some math. Keep in mind that this is rough math and that I commonly found answers resulting in 7-15 decimal places and I rounded those numbers to either 1 or 2 decimal places, expect in places where more were required. As such this does have a small margin of error.

 

Some of the math is useful, some was done just because I wanted to do it to see what would come about of it.

 

Haste needed to get one more Jab or Keg per one minute == 606 haste (40 energy per 1 min = 0.667_EPS from haste = .0011_EPH * 0.667_EPS = 606 haste required)

 

So haste for the sake of Chi seems to be fairly useless, 606 haste to gain one extra is a solid amount of stats for not much return.

 

The other thing that is effected by haste is auto attack speed. But still the return per point is really bad, I didn't do the deep math but just looking at my haste level of 723 and looking that I get 3.03% haste from that = 0.19 seconds off my swing speed making it every 2.41 seconds Vs. 2.6 seconds.

 

I think the IV guide needs to be changed a bit or someone needs to tell me why on earth haste would be of value to BM in WoD.

 

I was basing my "need for some haste" off of the guides I've found that all say that we do, but after running sims and doing some math and looking at my own play style I really don't see WHY we needed and instead would say that the guides are either flat out wrong or at least out dated.

 

 

 

Your rotation is simple, Keg Smash on cooldown, tiger palm to fill gcds -> 70+ energy and Keg Smash has more than 3 secs left on CD? Then and only then Jab.

Replace Jab with Expel Harm if you're low HP.

 

The key to energy management is using Tiger Palm (and not grabbing more haste). Try to get in 2 tiger palms for every keg smash you use. You can do this and never energy cap (even at 800 haste + ascension). Doing so will also give you no empty globals in your rotation.

 

 

I've been using the TP spam since starting Twins progression and seeing logs of Monks doing 250+ TP Vs. my 70 TP on our first progression night. Since then I've been spamming the crap out of TP and using a Jab fairly often to keep from energy capping, jabbing more often then I would really like to due to GCDs and Keg. Less or almost non-existent haste would solve this.

 

 

For Ascension my math shows it being so bad that I question if I did my math right since I find it hard to think that it is really THIS bad.

 

Power Strikes give 4 Chi per min (1 per 15 seconds) so in order to get that in Ascension we need to gain energy equal to 4 jabs/kegs per 1 min, 4_chi * 40_energy = 160 energy per minute.

 

To get an extra 160 energy in a single minute we need to get 2.7_eps from Ascension. Since it works off of our energy regen levels we would need a level of energy regen that would make E*A=2.7_eps (E being the energy regen level, A being the 15% from Ascension)

 

This is where I think my math might be wrong, to make this work we need 18_eps*.15=2.7

But to GET 18_eps we need a haste level that gives 8 extra energy per second.

 

1 point of haste = 0.0011_eps (value taken from taking gear on and off and checking to see the loss/gain in EPS Vs. loss/gain in haste. If this ratio is wrong, someone let me know)

 

8_eps / 0.0011_eps = 7273 haste.

 

Current answer: 913 haste makes Ascension = PS.

 

Ascension modifies your base haste by 1.15x, so you start with 11.5 eps instead of 10.  To get that to 12.7 eps needed to get 4 more jabs per min, we would need 12.7 = 10*1.15*E, where E is the energy regen from haste, and E = 1+ Haste%.  From there we need E to be 1.10145, or 10.145% haste%, and from the hotfix that puts 90 haste = 1%, we get 913.0434 haste rating.

 

[Orthios 271]

For Ascension my math shows it being so bad that I question if I did my math right since I find it hard to think that it is really THIS bad.

 

Power Strikes give 4 Chi per min (1 per 15 seconds) so in order to get that in Ascension we need to gain energy equal to 4 jabs/kegs per 1 min, 4_chi * 40_energy = 160 energy per minute.

 

To get an extra 160 energy in a single minute we need to get 2.7_eps from Ascension. Since it works off of our energy regen levels we would need a level of energy regen that would make E*A=2.7_eps (E being the energy regen level, A being the 15% from Ascension)

 

This is where I think my math might be wrong, to make this work we need 18_eps*.15=2.7

But to GET 18_eps we need a haste level that gives 8 extra energy per second.

 

1 point of haste = 0.0011_eps (value taken from taking gear on and off and checking to see the loss/gain in EPS Vs. loss/gain in haste. If this ratio is wrong, someone let me know)

 

8_eps / 0.0011_eps = 7273 haste.

 

...

...

...

... Ascension can't be THAT bad, can it?

 

 

Anyone sees errors in my math or theory let me know.

Ascension modifies your base haste by 1.15x, so you start with 11.5 eps instead of 10.  To get that to 12.7 eps needed to get 4 more jabs per min, we would need 12.7 = 10*1.15*E, where E is the energy regen from haste, and E = 1+ Haste%.  From there we need E to be 1.10145, or 10.145% haste%, and from the hotfix that puts 90 haste = 1%, we get 913.0434 haste rating.

[Halbaradkenafin 0]

Ascension really is that bad. If it was true haste and haste reduced the CD of Keg Smash then it would be viable but we're still limited in the number of Keg smash we can get per minute and Jab is pretty bad most of the time.

Best guide I've found is over of MMO-C and has some good theory crafting being done by Totaltotemic, Madgod and others. Plus the discussion there is very good, with a lot of feedback for logs etc.

[Lockybalboa 618]

Ascension modifies your base haste by 1.15x, so you start with 11.5 eps instead of 10.  To get that to 12.7 eps needed to get 4 more jabs per min, we would need 12.7 = 10*1.15*E, where E is the energy regen from haste, and E = 1+ Haste%.  From there we need E to be 1.10145, or 10.145% haste%, and from the hotfix that puts 90 haste = 1%, we get 913.0434 haste rating.

 

 

Ya your math is right then. I was...Im not sure what I was doing but I was doing it wicked wrong.

[Kulia 39]

Wait a minute. 
Am I correct in taking from this that Ascension is complete crap and I should switch to Power Strikes? D:

because I really like Ascension due to the way I can pool chi with it.

[Halbaradkenafin 0]

Wait a minute. 

Am I correct in taking from this that Ascension is complete crap and I should switch to Power Strikes? D:

because I really like Ascension due to the way I can pool chi with it.

 

Power strikes is considerably better. It takes a little getting used to the different play style and keeping away from the Jab key unless you're at 80+ energy and Keg Smash is not off CD for more than 3 seconds, but it's well worth it for that extra 4 chi per minute.

[Kulia 39]

Power strikes is considerably better. It takes a little getting used to the different play style and keeping away from the Jab key unless you're at 80+ energy and Keg Smash is not off CD for more than 3 seconds, but it's well worth it for that extra 4 chi per minute.

Okay, I'll give Power Strikes a go then.

[Lothrandir 12]

Re-kindling this thread, although in a slightly different direction - still concerned with state weights though.

 

But ... I see Agi over Bonus Armor in some guides and not in others. Anyone has any solid math or practical experience on this regarding trinkets, since that comes down to choosing between AGI or added armor?

 

Or is it perhaps a case of 'do you need the self-healing or the mitigation?', which warrants having a set of each for different content?

 

Thanks

[Lockybalboa 618]

From what I understand Agl and BA are basically equal in value, most of the difference comes from Kings buff since it gives you 5% extra Agl. 

 

Sims on my own monk puts them less then 0.05 difference.

[Lothrandir 12]

Cool, thanks. Just starting out BM'ing due to tank leaving, so got way better Agi trinkets, which are then perfectly viable it would seem.

[Lothrandir 12]

Well, my current sim actually has a 25% edge to bonus armor.

 

Anyways, I'm thinking there could be some merit to the 'two-sets' idea, if the right (probably mainly magic damage) boss is on the menu, but it looks to me like armor will be the default choice.

[Brady84 4]

Well, my current sim actually has a 25% edge to bonus armor.

 

Anyways, I'm thinking there could be some merit to the 'two-sets' idea, if the right (probably mainly magic damage) boss is on the menu, but it looks to me like armor will be the default choice.

 

For Trinkets BA is king, They both give the same AP, AGI gives dodge and BA gives physical damage reduction + Most of the BA Trinkets also have mastery which is further Damage & Mitigation through Stagger

 

[unless of course your on a fight with next to no physical damage and magical attacks that can be dodged] 

 

so pretty much between the drops from Blast Furnace, Hans & Franz, Twins & Crafted depending on how far your progression is, Or Tectus as well if you need the extra HP to live

[Fuxxi 0]

yeah sry you theorycrafing folks

 

but

 

i´ve got 1083 haste and 1379 mastery (600+crit and 500+multi) all buffed of course

 

i think these values are great without 4p bonus, because i´m going ks..tp..jab..tp..jab..jab..tp..

 

then in between i´m using my chi for guard flamedebuffdunnothenamesryverydrunkrightnow and going pb all the time

 

pb spamming is the best for me

 

call me noob or whatsoever, but i´m the best tank in my parties and can lay low cause of this 

 

but my pb spam cause of high haste is really rockin ^^

 

dunno why your all so gungho on the small stuff when you can get 42+% dmg off your back when you´re spamming pb every 1-3 secs

 

pls remember we´re tanks and no dd or heals ;P

[BrewmasterJi 5]

Stop pretending haste is good. If you want to stack it be my guest, but don't go around spreading the cancerous stat that is haste to anyone else.

We've listed why its bad, we've mathematically proved why it's still bad. But you still pretend its good.

If PB spammimg is good, i dont even understand why you would need haste with Serenity -.-

[Brady84 4]

yeah sry you theorycrafing folks

 

but

 

because i´m going ks..tp..jab..tp..jab..jab..tp..

 

Unless your at 100 energy, KS is still on CD & your at 100% health then jab is the worst thing you can do

 

Keg Smash - Does 10x the damage and generates 2x the Chi

Expel Harm - Free heal[scales with resolve] + more DPS & same chi as jab

 

 

Stop pretending haste is good. If you want to stack it be my guest, but don't go around spreading the cancerous stat that is haste to anyone else.

We've listed why its bad, we've mathematically proved why it's still bad. But you still pretend its good.

If PB spammimg is good, i dont even understand why you would need haste with Serenity -.-

 

^^ I Play & Main resto druid [at an "acceptable" level] but I'm starting to run BrM Monk as my main "alt" The info I gained from the above/misume/leblue etc in a 5-10minute read through a 160+ page thread [before reading it all] far outweighs anything I've learned from posts/guides on here "no offense" but a lot of what he says should be taken seriously rather than instantly dismissed 

[MadBrewmaster 2]

Hello all, I'm The Madgod from over at MMOC. This thread was mentioned over there in my guide and I wanted to take a look in and something caught my eye.

 

I know this is kinda bringing up old dirt but I think it's important to keep the community as informed as possible.

 

Ascension modifies your base haste by 1.15x, so you start with 11.5 eps instead of 10.  To get that to 12.7 eps needed to get 4 more jabs per min, we would need 12.7 = 10*1.15*E, where E is the energy regen from haste, and E = 1+ Haste%.  From there we need E to be 1.10145, or 10.145% haste%, and from the hotfix that puts 90 haste = 1%, we get 913.0434 haste rating.

 

This is incorrect. At 12.7 Er/s you are not equal to PB's chi generation.

 

PB generates an additional chi every 15 seconds, or is equivalent to an additional 2.66 Er/s (1 chi = 40 energy, 40 e / 15 s = 2.66 Er/s). This much is known.

 

However the way you are treating Ascension is that you simply need to get to 12.66 Er/s. This is not accurate because it ignores the haste value of the character when using Power Strikes. In order to tell when Ascension and Power Strikes are equal, you have to figure out when Ascension provides 2.66 Er/s, because otherwise, Power Strikes + the haste you have will be superior. That 15% additional regen has to be equal to the equivalent regen of PS.

 

To illustrate my point, 12.66 Er/s with Ascension is about 908 haste rating (rounding up).

 

908 haste rating without Ascension is just a bit above 11 Er/s. Adding on the 2.66 effective energy regeneration of Power Strikes, however, makes that a 13.66 effective Er/s, still superior to Ascension.

 

So really 908 haste does make Ascension equal to Power Strikes... but only if you are using Power Strikes at 0 haste.

 

The real equal point assuming equal haste would be thus:

 

X * 0.15 = 2.66

 

X = 2.66/.15

 

X = 17.73

 

17.73 Er/s - 10 = 7.73 added Er/s

 

7.73 * 10 = 77.3 % haste

 

77.3 * 90 = 6957 haste rating.

 

 

I think the IV guide needs to be changed a bit or someone needs to tell me why on earth haste would be of value to BM in WoD.

 

I was basing my "need for some haste" off of the guides I've found that all say that we do, but after running sims and doing some math and looking at my own play style I really don't see WHY we needed and instead would say that the guides are either flat out wrong or at least out dated.

 

It's based off of an old philosophy (which funnily enough I think I was the first to use, actually) in MoP after 5.1. Before then there was an idea that there was a haste "cap" of 13.33 energy regen per second, which got us I want to say enough energy regen for an extra jab in a 6 second period or something like that? It was a really old concept which was ultimately eliminated when Ascension was changed to basically what it is today.

 

More or less the philosophy back then was that because purifies didn't mean that much and self-healing was far more potent, the extra energy regen gained from Ascension was more useful. Further compounded by the natural 10% additional energy regen, haste actually had a decent use. Of course the problem with it was that you TECHNICALLY didn't need any haste at all, so it became a crutch stat. You got enough to feel comfortable with your chi generation and that was really all it was useful for. It had some decent secondary affects, it did provide some service, and it was almost impossible to get rid of entirely, so that is why it was recommended to a point.

 

With Warlords, self healing has become less potent and mastery and crit contribute far more to survivability and damage than before (purifies mean more now and EB was buffed), all the while our energy regeneration bonus was removed and power strikes was buffed. With a higher importance on EB and chi, Ascension has become an even larger crutch talent (in both meanings of the phrase) and haste's value has plummeted. Because you can still get a solid amount of chi with Power Strikes and an absurd amount with Serenity, and with further understanding and more modern techniques, haste's "comfort cap" is no longer really a good idea because of the stat's low value and because of how it's basically able to be ignored if you simply learn energy management and proper jab usage.

Edited February 26, 2015 by MadBrewmaster

[Fuxxi 0]

yeah sry brady just forgot to mention that i´m using EH on cd and KS too.

 

take one Jab out and one EH in for it. The rota isn´t changing. After the rota is KS rdy again.

 

Meanwhile i switched to Chiex playstyle with 3+ depending on the fight and thats more fun + preparing for p4

Nonetheless i personally still value haste as high as multi/crit, especially with the 4p coming in.

But i think that´s just a casual opinion

 

and pls don´t explain multi for GOTO or crit for Elusive, i know it.

Edited March 3, 2015 by Fuxxi