[DW Frost] Plaguebarer+Necroticplague

[Threonin 2]

With the upcoming buff to Necrotic I had an Idea for DW Frost if it would be beneficial to go Necrotic, since we use a lot of HB and FS we could quickly stack up the NP.

I was wondering if it could be worth thinking about or if its just crap DPS wise.

 

Pls let me know what u think

[demonardvark 556]

With the upcoming buff to Necrotic I had an Idea for DW Frost if it would be beneficial to go Necrotic, since we use a lot of HB and FS we could quickly stack up the NP.

I was wondering if it could be worth thinking about or if its just crap DPS wise.

 

Pls let me know what u think

 

I've been looking at this for awhile. I need to play around with it more but, I feel unholy blight is better for 1h necrofrost. It gets you a full 30 seconds of a 15 stack necrotic quickly. The problem with building it up via plaguebearer is your duration remaining isn't increasing only the stacks. So, while you can get it to 15 relatively faster than not using it, you won't get the full duration. 

 

Now, once unholy blight is burnt you will have 30 seconds of no free boosting and have to build stacks the old fashion way. Doing this I found with good luck from RNGesus you can get about a 10 second full stack which isn't too bad. So, I've seen 1h frost maintaining 75-80% ish uptime with full stacks. 

 

Now, im not saying plaguebearer isn't good. I'll play with it later today however, since frost cannot increase the duration of the diseases we must keep in mind that as we build the stacks we are losing the duration. So up front a quick free full stack every min vs maintaining several 10 second full stacks, unholy theoretically sounds like it will win.

 

Long story short though, there is a great deal of viability for 1h frost to use necrotic. There is also a lot for 2h frost. Im seeing more and more necrobliterate play where they forsake plague leech for unholy blight and i'm seeing some stupid numbers out of them. 

[VRDRF 9]

Looking at the current sims Im amazed people still want to play DW Frost, Its just not worth it anymore to be honest.

At least in a PVE environment.

[demonardvark 556]

Looking at the current sims Im amazed people still want to play DW Frost, Its just not worth it anymore to be honest.

At least in a PVE environment.

 

ehhh looking at the big sims its the top of the bottom (number 1 in bottom 10) so that being said you can pull competitive dps to get the job done and if you are having fun go for it. 2h frost slowed down alot so i can see people liking the faster rotation of 1h. so if you are having fun and able to contribute enough to down the boss you are good to go.

 

also sims bims, pandaland sims told me not to play unholy and I cleared mythic SoO as one of the top dps in my group. (was called heroic at the time :P but you get what i mean)

[VRDRF 9]

its 2-5k behind on most things in 6.0.3 and even more in 6.1, as a raid leader I'd rather have them play the best spec out there but if your guild is trying to progress I doubt they will let you get away with a spec that delivers sub par dps while you could do more with a more optimal spec but thats just me

 

But if you are in a guild that clears normal/heroics and have no interest in Mythic then yeah go for it

 

Obviously if 2 1 handers drop from gruul mythic and you are coming from heroics then its a no brainer :P

Edited February 2, 2015 by VRDRF

[Threonin 2]

also in cleavefight/ae-fights DW pulls ahead of 2H-Frost, so it depents on the style of fight

[Lusitan 2]

its 2-5k behind on most things in 6.0.3 and even more in 6.1, as a raid leader I'd rather have them play the best spec out there but if your guild is trying to progress I doubt they will let you get away with a spec that delivers sub par dps while you could do more with a more optimal spec but thats just me

 

But if you are in a guild that clears normal/heroics and have no interest in Mythic then yeah go for it

 

Obviously if 2 1 handers drop from gruul mythic and you are coming from heroics then its a no brainer

 

i can tell you that playing sub-optimal spec in Mythic does work, especially when the player can ditch out more DPS in that spec than the Optimal one.

 

I cant play to any strength UH either in ST or Cleave and AoE, my number drop quite considerably when i play that spec, but i do very well as 2H frost, this was before Frost got the Haste buff.

 

I havent used Defile in ages, couldnt give a rat's arse about it, its still the best optimal talent in the simc but in reality making it work to full potential is damn right impossible

[demonardvark 556]

Well I played around with it and if you want to go 1h with necrotic plague frost you need to use unholy blight. Every min i got my full 15 stacks of the plague for the full duration. Plaguebearer just wasn't quick enough. The second you start building stacks the clock ticks and you are losing duration, so by the time i got my 15 naturally I had like 8 seconds of the full power. In addition however, like many people have posted here, the power of 1h frost is very limited. 

 

If you are going to roll 1h frost I would really recommend defile over necrotic (yeah i know this is coming from me XD) 1h frost doesn't hit that hard and needs a really strong push to try and make them competitive.

 

NOW rolling 2h necrotic plague I have gotten VERY interesting results. I pair it with unholy blight and on some fights im doing more damage then my unholy dk. This is because necrotic is passively played, use unholy on cd, if disease falls off use outbreak. While the disease is ticking you are doing full damage as 2h frost dk. So you are doing really strong damage with intermittent full stacks of necrotic plague. Necrobliterate play can very much be a thing and with the boost coming to necrotic plague it is looking very exciting.

 

tldr, 1h frost = no necrotic, 2h frost = use necrotic

[ChaiNspliT 5]

Well I played around with it and if you want to go 1h with necrotic plague frost you need to use unholy blight.

 

No, no you don't. If you look at recent Sims, then UB+NP for 1H ist pretty damn bad. PL+NP is the go to, if you want to do any good damage, since BrF is add heavy and Defile needs your target to stay still. NP is failsafe and will do a lot more damage than Defile once 6.1 rolls out.

Source: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Bmw_9ZvCBNcD79APeHiZ3Nj-M1z1N2v28fqRlKmigO8/preview?sle=true&pli=1#

 

 

NOW rolling 2h necrotic plague I have gotten VERY interesting results. I pair it with unholy blight and on some fights im doing more damage then my unholy dk. This is because necrotic is passively played, use unholy on cd, if disease falls off use outbreak. While the disease is ticking you are doing full damage as 2h frost dk. So you are doing really strong damage with intermittent full stacks of necrotic plague. Necrobliterate play can very much be a thing and with the boost coming to necrotic plague it is looking very exciting.

 

tldr, 1h frost = no necrotic, 2h frost = use necrotic

 

Everything you say is purely based on your feeling and no actual sims. Again, UB+NP is terrible for 2H Frost, you should go with PL, combined with NP.

Source: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Bmw_9ZvCBNcD79APeHiZ3Nj-M1z1N2v28fqRlKmigO8/preview?sle=true&pli=1#

 

The 6.1 buffs will make NP competitive for all 3 DPS specs and replace Defile completely. Still, the only viable spec for Unholy Blight is the Unholy DK himself. Frost stays with PL.

 

EDIT: Please refrain from making your feelings and opinions about stuff, that modifies DPS a "fact" and turn to some actual sources and examples.

Edited February 3, 2015 by ChaiNspliT

[demonardvark 556]

No, no you don't. If you look at recent Sims, then UB+NP for 1H ist pretty damn bad. PL+NP is the go to, if you want to stick with NP.

Source: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Bmw_9ZvCBNcD79APeHiZ3Nj-M1z1N2v28fqRlKmigO8/preview?sle=true&pli=1#

 

 

 

Everything you say is purely based on your feeling and no actual sims. Again, UB+NP is terrible for 2H Frost, you should go with PL, combined with NP.

Source: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Bmw_9ZvCBNcD79APeHiZ3Nj-M1z1N2v28fqRlKmigO8/preview?sle=true&pli=1#

 

The 6.1 buffs will make NP competitive for all 3 DPS specs and replace Defile completely. Still, the only viable spec for Unholy Blight is the Unholy DK himself. Frost stays with PL.

 

Actually everything I use is off real play data not sims. The problem with sims is they assume far too much and assume absolutely perfect player response time and usage. The other issue is they don't take into account mechanics and maintaining dps while dealing with them (current highmaul not too many mechanics but i digress).

 

In my guild I have 4 other people who run the real life scenarios with me to interpret results. Now, if you would prefer me to smack you in the face with constant graphs and charts, I can do that if you require more REALISTIC aka average player data. 

 

Now, TC asked specifically about using plaguebearer with necrotic plague. The answer was no plaguebearer is not competitive, that if you want to use necrotic plague to maximize your damage from that then use you would want unholy blight. The perspective here is focused on maximizing necrotic plagues output. If you aren't maxing stacks you are limiting the usefulness of it and may as well stick with defile. The same for 2h frost. 

 

What we are addressing here isn't what is absolutely optimal we are addressing an optional play style. If you truly look at skullflowers sims they are still saying defile is the best for all situations. Beyond that the differences you get between plague leech and unholy are so small as to be irrelevant. So if you want absolute super max dps you need defile and to have perfect time with it. If you want to necrotic around unholy blight makes it easier and you suffer a 1.5-2% dps loss at best. Even then how they have plague leech being effective with necrotic is beyond me. I see yes suck up necrotic when its about to expire but you have so little uptime at full stacks you are making it worthless and should stick to defile. 

[ChaiNspliT 5]

Even then how they have plague leech being effective with necrotic is beyond me. I see yes suck up necrotic when its about to expire but you have so little uptime at full stacks you are making it worthless and should stick to defile. 

 

That's the thing, you didn't inform yourself on that matter. If you go with PL, which is superior if used on CD, then you never PL your main target. 

Instead, you take it from any of the adds, since as I mentioned, BrF is incredibly add heavy. NP will spread the disease to any target near it, once expired (which you know too good) so there's no DPS loss.

 

Especially for DW it's important to have a constant flow of Runes generating and if you take UB, instead of PL, then you eliminate that factor and end up with a DPS loss. You realised yourself once, that HB will stack NP pretty quickly, that's not the problem here.

 

Based on these sims, PB+NP is actually even better than UB+NP and now please tell me, which once is easier to use? The passive PB or UB?

 

Anyway, I just wanted to make my point clear. Hope you don't take it bad.

 

 

EDIT: Look at the Guide for Beastlord Darmac.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Bmw_9ZvCBNcD79APeHiZ3Nj-M1z1N2v28fqRlKmigO8/preview?sle=true&pli=1#heading=h.47b2ql8xxg9f

 

It's a good example for DW, the rest though is tuned for Unholy.

Edited February 3, 2015 by ChaiNspliT

[demonardvark 556]

That's the thing, you didn't inform yourself on that matter. If you go with PL, which is superior if used on CD, then you never PL your main target. 

Instead, you take it from any of the adds, since as I mentioned, BrF is incredibly add heavy. NP will spread the disease to any target near it, once expired (which you know too good) so there's no DPS loss.

 

Especially for DW it's important to have a constant flow of Runes generating and if you take UB, instead of PL, then you eliminate that factor and end up with a DPS loss. You realised yourself once, that HB will stack NP pretty quickly, that's not the problem here.

 

Based on these sims, PB+NP is actually even better than UB+NP and now please tell me, which once is easier to use? The passive PB or UB?

 

Anyway, I just wanted to make my point clear. Hope you don't take it bad.

 

 

EDIT: Look at the Guide for Beastlord Darmac.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Bmw_9ZvCBNcD79APeHiZ3Nj-M1z1N2v28fqRlKmigO8/preview?sle=true&pli=1#heading=h.47b2ql8xxg9f

 

It's a good example for DW, the rest though is tuned for Unholy.

 

Interesting Interesting. I'll tell you i love these boards and all the different view points because you brought up a VERYYY interesting concept. Using plague leech to steal necrotic from adds instead of main target. this NEVER came to my mind. Oh that is something very neat to play with. 

 

and from here I'm going to leave a stay tuned for the rest of my response. I want to play around tonight with this idea. I agree with you for 1h frost I see this being beautiful if not necessary. 2h maybe. What i'll need to see though is the implication this has on necrotic itself. Again until its 15 stacks the damage is subpar and without being able to refresh its duration you get limited amount of full uptime. So, does the rune gain from leeching adds over ride the extra damage from necrotic? T17 bonus ahead of time I can say absolutely for the need to burst during pillar but outside of the bonus I'll have to play around. 

 

Great job on catching that chain!!! I have a big update coming to my necroblight guide and I'm going to look into plague leech for unholy as well. 

[ChaiNspliT 5]

Well, I'm glad I could contribute.

 

Then be sure to say something, when your guide has been changed.

[demonardvark 556]

I played around with plague leech 1h frost particularly. I find it to be the dividing line between perfect play and realistic play. Perfect sims it works great, real viability its very hard. The problem comes in with frost and necrotic. The time on it is just not enough. So as adds spread there isn't available disease to leech. Also, the downtime on the stacks is a noticeable dps decrease. Making it work is probably possible with a lot of add ons and tracking but for basic play I would recommend unholy blight with 1h (honestly first I would recommend defile, but if we are using necrotic 1h i'd use ub with it).  

 

As far as working for unholy I find it makes the rotation a bit clumsy. I never find myself so short on runes that it be worth sucking up my disease. Plus with necrotic hitting so much harder on unholy losing the stacks and having to take the time rebuild them is a big dps loss. 

 

So, sim wise I can see it yielding big numbers. Realistic play I have a harder time with it. It's certainly strong, and it certainly is potent in the right hands, I think it just takes the right hands to make it work.

Edited February 4, 2015 by demonardvark

[Lusitan 2]

 

 

NOW rolling 2h necrotic plague I have gotten VERY interesting results. 

 

we might have a hidden gem right here (not top damage but viable figures), there some stupid high number on Brackenspore, with UB+NP as 2h Frost

[ChaiNspliT 5]

we might have a hidden gem right here (not top damage but viable figures), there some stupid high number on Brackenspore, with UB+NP as 2h Frost

 

I'd like to see said logs. I'm quite skeptical about such a mixture of Talents.

[demonardvark 556]

we might have a hidden gem right here (not top damage but viable figures), there some stupid high number on Brackenspore, with UB+NP as 2h Frost

 

Overall i'm really starting to like this combination. I'm getting the highest dps out of this guy even over unholy. The only thing is necrotics placement in damage source is sporadic. Sometimes it will be in the top 3 of my damage sources and sometimes it will be 5th or 6th. Part of it comes down I think to RNGesus. With UB on cooldown we need to build up stacks. Viably the only source is outbreak, rime procs, and plague strikes when available. So, on high rime days the UB CD time  dps isnt quite as low as others. 

Edited February 5, 2015 by demonardvark

[ChaiNspliT 5]

Overall i'm really starting to like this combination. I'm getting the highest dps out of this guy even over unholy.

 

It's been shown and simmed, that UB+NP is a terrible choice for 2H Frost. The only "good" choice would be PL+NP. It may be very well possible, that you're better geared for 2H Frost and thus make more damage in it.

 

Either way, you guys are spreading the wrong information...

[Lusitan 2]

 

 

What we are addressing here isn't what is absolutely optimal we are addressing an optional play style. If you truly look at skullflowers sims they are still saying defile is the best for all situations. Beyond that the differences you get between plague leech and unholy are so small as to be irrelevant. So if you want absolute super max dps you need defile and to have perfect time with it. If you want to necrotic around unholy blight makes it easier and you suffer a 1.5-2% dps loss at best. Even then how they have plague leech being effective with necrotic is beyond me. I see yes suck up necrotic when its about to expire but you have so little uptime at full stacks you are making it worthless and should stick to defile. 

 

PL + NP - works if you PL an add not your main target, like focus target add or something

[Lusitan 2]

Overall i'm really starting to like this combination. I'm getting the highest dps out of this guy even over unholy. The only thing is necrotics placement in damage source is sporadic. Sometimes it will be in the top 3 of my damage sources and sometimes it will be 5th or 6th. Part of it comes down I think to RNGesus. With UB on cooldown we need to build up stacks. Viably the only source is outbreak, rime procs, and plague strikes when available. So, on high rime days the UB CD time  dps isnt quite as low as others. 

 

this is very based on where the adds spawn and the boss is being tanked, if spore-shooters are far away from boss then it becomes a problem.

[Lusitan 2]

I'd like to see said logs. I'm quite skeptical about such a mixture of Talents.

 

 

It's been shown and simmed, that UB+NP is a terrible choice for 2H Frost. The only "good" choice would be PL+NP. It may be very well possible, that you're better geared for 2H Frost and thus make more damage in it.

 

Either way, you guys are spreading the wrong information...

 

you should just try it for yourself and stop pointing out the SIM, its pretty easy roll the talents, join LFR or start a guild run, and test it for yourself, simple and effective. then you'll see "the misinformation" you say we spreading. 

 

we never claimed it was the top choice or better choice, we claimed that the number are high for such, according to Simc, un-optimal choice.

 

 

People should use Simc as Guideline not absolute truth, guys like you are the same that look at recount and see one DK doing 44k DPS on Kargath and another doing 28K and complain like little girls but forget to ask why is that, the reason is simple one went to the stands the other didnt.

 

Simc, is there to provide guidelines for us to test not to take it as absolute truth, cause if it was as absolute they wouldn't need to constantly fix bugs on it

Edited February 5, 2015 by Lusitan

[ChaiNspliT 5]

In contrary to you (propably), I've played 2H Frost for a while now and played with different talents. I can only support the sims from Skullflowers.

 

It's funny, because, you know. I'm the only one showing some actual sources and explained my point multiple times.

Until any of you can prove, that UB+NP did more damage than PL+NP (considering you plague leech the adds and not your main target) for 2H Frost with Logs, you are simply wrong.

 

EDIT: I understand it's not about doing maximum DPS for you guys, but even then. Someone here mentioned he saw great logs of 2H Frost with UB+NP and he still didn't prove that. That's the reason I can't take that choice of talents serious.

Edited February 5, 2015 by ChaiNspliT

[AthenaDI 0]

Testing a PL + NP weak aura it also comes with a Defile setup.

 

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1c-fl6WvXulls8X5B7uzTsYf-yDErMxupavGoRz6FA1g/edit?usp=sharing

[demonardvark 556]

In contrary to you (propably), I've played 2H Frost for a while now and played with different talents. I can only support the sims from Skullflowers.

 

It's funny, because, you know. I'm the only one showing some actual sources and explained my point multiple times.

Until any of you can prove, that UB+NP did more damage than PL+NP (considering you plague leech the adds and not your main target) for 2H Frost with Logs, you are simply wrong.

 

EDIT: I understand it's not about doing maximum DPS for you guys, but even then. Someone here mentioned he saw great logs of 2H Frost with UB+NP and he still didn't prove that. That's the reason I can't take that choice of talents serious.

 

One thing I think we need to take in mind is numbers we are discussing. Using skullflowers sims we are talking 2-3k dps differences in sources between specs and talent choices. If any of these differences were 5k+ or truly monumental then maybe more serious attention would be necessary.

 

Looking at sims from the previously linked skullflowers guide unholy will out perform frost but frost will only be a couple k dps behind. As far as frosts options go the easier play style will end up being paring necrotic with it it. Defile always sims higher but is harder to match your simmed dps with. 

Edited February 8, 2015 by demonardvark

[Anfauglith 6]

I don't understand why would anyone choose to go PL + NP, when Defile is so much better in that situation. I mean, it takes roughly 15 seconds for NP to reach 15 stacks (and that's if you pretty much spam Howling Blast), and you only get half the benefit from it. It might as well be a DPS loss over the normal diseases.

Edited February 18, 2015 by Anfauglith