Glyph of Savagery?

[Sonick 0]

Is it worth taking? Here is the reason I ask. On a recent butcher encounter I had no problem keeping Savage Roar up (99%)... but, it caused me to only be able to keep Rip up for 91% of the 3:52 fight and only got in 10 Ferocious Bites. My overall dps for the fight was 25k with a 657 ilvl (now 669 and doing 29k). I can't post my armory because it's not coming up but the toon is Sonick on US Sargeras. 

 

Would it be worth the 10% buff loss to take Glyph of Savagery to raise my uptime on rip and use more bites? Thanks! Here is the log btw.

 

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/jDv6twKJHz9Rx4Z7#fight=6&type=damage-done

[Tarazet 144]

It's not worth using on a single target fight, but if you have multiple sustained targets, then it becomes an interesting option as it makes it much easier to sustain Rip on all of them. It's a glyph that you're going to take for a QoL buff, though, not to eke out the last few% of DPS. Hoping for better performance with a ~7% nerf to all your abilities is asking a lot.

[Sonick 0]

Makes sense. So for fights such as Tectus or Operator it would be good, but Butcher and Gruul style fights stick with Savage Roar?

[Tarazet 144]

I don't think it will ever be a DPS gain, even in multiple target situations. At best, it will make things easier while still performing within a couple%, and at worst, you're going to be nerfing yourself needlessly. But there is always value in making the class easier to play so that you can keep your attention on raid awareness and mechanics. This is where my thinking often differs from the top theorycrafters; I put as much value on the human factors as I do on hitting the highest potential numbers, because not everyone who raids is going to be raiding in greens trying for world firsts. And of course execution is always the biggest driver of performance, regardless of talent choices.

 

If you do take it, then you should not use Incarnation. It would be invalidating half the good in that talent choice. Instead, you should be taking Soul of the Forest (getting even more benefit out of the extra combo points), and most likely Lunar Inspiration would be the best pairing from T7.

[Paloro 39]

Glyph of Savagery will always be a theoretical dps loss. 

 

It seems you are doing well enough (maintaining a 91% Rip) to not use that glyph.  What conditions do you find yourself in when you use FB?

 

Try to play a bit more conservatively (less uses of FB) and keep Rip up closer towards 100%.

[FaFiend 0]

I played around with that glyph too and some investigations showed that it is always seems to be a DPS loss as far as the math can tell.

To get a picture of how powerfull Savage Roar (SR) in itself is, picture this scenario:

 

You do not have glyph of Savagery, so Roar provides 40% bonus damage.

Fully Raid-buffed, flask etc all active, your DPS at a butcher fight is, say, 28k.

Thus, without Savage Roar, your DPS is 20k (since 20k * 1.4 = 28k).

For its duration of 42 seconds (at 5CP), SR increases your DPS by 8k. I.e. its total damage is 8k*42 = 336k.

 

If you decide to take the glyph, an execution of SR would increase your DPS by 6k per second, for 42 seconds.

Here, the effective damage of SR is 6k*42 = 252k.

 

The DPS loss from taking the glyph (without accounting for extra Bites or Rips) is 336k - 252k = 84k.

However, by taking this glyph, the 5CP otherwise spent on SR can be used for a Rip or a Bite.

Thus, in order for the glyph to be a DPS gain, the average damage of either a Rip (in a multiple target fight) or a Bite (in single Target) needs to exceed the 84k that is the difference in effective damage that one gets out of a unglyphed and glyphed SR.

By 'average' I mean the base damage including averaged effects from crits and multistrikes.

 

More general, this glyph is a theoretical DPS gain, if the damage of an average Rip or Bite is larger than 10% of your base DPS without SR times 42 seconds. I wonder whether the scaling of attack power and the secondary stats will put us into that position at one point...

Of course this does not account for the free SR you get at the start of the fight and during incarnation (thus making the glyph a bit worse than the numbers above make it look like).

 

However, as Tarazet already pointed out, when learning the rotation, getting used to it, or to increase raid-awareness, it may be the better choice.

[Kulia 39]

Yeah, as others have stated the glyph is pretty much always a DPS loss, it *IS* an interesting one and the only time it really has it's place is well, when you're learning the rotation/fights and when you're levelling as it just gives you one less thing to manage.

[Nikolai 0]

Yeah, as others have stated the glyph is pretty much always a DPS loss, it *IS* an interesting one and the only time it really has it's place is well, when you're learning the rotation/fights and when you're levelling as it just gives you one less thing to manage.

 

This. Having so many spells is always comofrtable removing one from the rotation, even if its a dps loss. After all 84k in 42 secs arent that much, having in mind that rotations are raid oriented and there are at least 6 dps hitting the boss. It would just be a couple of seconds of difference between killing the boss or not killing it.

[Bradykin 16]

I always have been in the position that even when learning, it is a bad idea to use this glyph, because you become dependant on it. It is (on average) a 4-7% dps loss, and that will get higher the farther we get into WoD. 

 

It is better (in my opinion) to learn to maintain all of your buffs and debuffs, rather then to get used to not managing SR then throw it into your rotation afterwards.

[Sonick 0]

Thanks for the info guys! I'm gonna stick with the Savage Roar glyph and just try to get better uptimes on my rips. Thanks again.

[Tarazet 144]

I always have been in the position that even when learning, it is a bad idea to use this glyph, because you become dependant on it. It is (on average) a 4-7% dps loss, and that will get higher the farther we get into WoD. 

 

It is better (in my opinion) to learn to maintain all of your buffs and debuffs, rather then to get used to not managing SR then throw it into your rotation afterwards.

 

I agree to an extent, but there's nothing wrong in principle with trying different builds that omit spells. The dotless talent for Shadow Priest comes to mind. Glyph of Savagery is not the best thing for a brand-new player of the class who still needs to learn how to properly John Madden everything, but Feral's rotation is pretty unforgiving. Add in unfamiliar/difficult raid mechanics, and it puts me into plenty of situations that test the limits of my juggling skills. Sometimes I'm just going to have a hard time keeping it all working properly.

 

That said, I haven't used this glyph. I have used Claws of Shirvallah because I like the tiger form, and there are a couple of dungeons where being able to Soothe is handy. When I was leveling, I was opening from stealth anyway, so Glyph of Savage Roar was still awesome.

[suchtie 1]

Yeah, as others have stated the glyph is pretty much always a DPS loss, it *IS* an interesting one and the only time it really has it's place is well, when you're learning the rotation/fights and when you're levelling as it just gives you one less thing to manage.

 

I think Glyph of Savage Roar is still better while levelling, because you can stealth and open on mobs much more often. Also, even tough quest mini-bosses usually live only around half a minute if you use your CDs, so you don't have to manage SR no matter the glyph. I'd rather have the normal 40% buff then.

[Kulia 39]

I think Glyph of Savage Roar is still better while levelling, because you can stealth and open on mobs much more often. Also, even tough quest mini-bosses usually live only around half a minute if you use your CDs, so you don't have to manage SR no matter the glyph. I'd rather have the normal 40% buff then.

Depends on how you quest, I can see why Glyph of Savage Roar can be better, but personally I'd use Savagery, purely because I like being able to pull large packs of mobs and AOE them down, rather than kill things one or two at a time(where Glyph of SR would be better). Because in large AOE you don't really have the energy/combo points to be spending on a SR anyway. But, I guess if you quest by pulling large packs of mobs you're better off going boomy (starfall makes levelling a joke, like seriously I had a blast levelling my two druids(one ally one horde)).

[Tarazet 144]

Depends on how you quest, I can see why Glyph of Savage Roar can be better, but personally I'd use Savagery, purely because I like being able to pull large packs of mobs and AOE them down, rather than kill things one or two at a time(where Glyph of SR would be better). Because in large AOE you don't really have the energy/combo points to be spending on a SR anyway. But, I guess if you quest by pulling large packs of mobs you're better off going boomy (starfall makes levelling a joke, like seriously I had a blast levelling my two druids(one ally one horde)).

 

If you want to pull a lot of mobs, might as well go Guardian for that matter. You can grab half the map and Thrash it down.

[Kulia 39]

If you want to pull a lot of mobs, might as well go Guardian for that matter. You can grab half the map and Thrash it down.

That's true. Does the same thing as boomy with more survivability. 

[Bradykin 16]

I agree to an extent, but there's nothing wrong in principle with trying different builds that omit spells. The dotless talent for Shadow Priest comes to mind. Glyph of Savagery is not the best thing for a brand-new player of the class who still needs to learn how to properly John Madden everything, but Feral's rotation is pretty unforgiving. Add in unfamiliar/difficult raid mechanics, and it puts me into plenty of situations that test the limits of my juggling skills. Sometimes I'm just going to have a hard time keeping it all working properly.

 

That said, I haven't used this glyph. I have used Claws of Shirvallah because I like the tiger form, and there are a couple of dungeons where being able to Soothe is handy. When I was leveling, I was opening from stealth anyway, so Glyph of Savage Roar was still awesome.

 

With all due respect, dotless shadow priest isn't a great comparison for this point, because it's actually the best dps rotation for (to my knowledge) all reachable levels of gear at the moment. Savagery rotations are never the best dps choice. My point is mainly that if someone learns to play without it, they shouldn't have trouble doing the rotation in unfamiliar scenarios, and if someone practices with it, it will make it much harder for them to play without the crutch.

[Tarazet 144]

With all due respect, dotless shadow priest isn't a great comparison for this point, because it's actually the best dps rotation for (to my knowledge) all reachable levels of gear at the moment. Savagery rotations are never the best dps choice. My point is mainly that if someone learns to play without it, they shouldn't have trouble doing the rotation in unfamiliar scenarios, and if someone practices with it, it will make it much harder for them to play without the crutch.

 

When you're leveling, nothing lives long enough to have to maintain Savage Roar beyond the free 5-CP one you get opening from stealth with Glyph of Savage Roar. Maintaining the buff is almost exclusively an added complication for performing in a raiding situation, and facing a boss that will last longer than 30 seconds. So regardless of what talent you use when learning the class, you're going to have a completely different rotation when it comes to raiding.. and that's the case for most classes, for that matter. Gotta hit that training dummy.

[Sonick 0]

I tested it for the past week or so, it is definitely a DPS drop for me. I went from 27-29k on butcher in my current gear to 24-25k when I used this glyph.