6.1 Demo: Not as bad as the Demonbolt nerf makes it look.

[iriecolorado 3]

Not as bad as it looks.  The 22.5% -> 30% DS change isn't a tooltip adjustment, but rather an actual buff.  

 

Naked Shadowbolt on Live with NO DS:

 

 

Naked Shadowbolt on Live with DS:

 

 

Naked Shadowbolt on PTR with NO DS:

 

 

Naked Shadowbolt on PTR with DS:

 

 

 

That should compensate for some of the loss of Demonbolt in the single target.  Basically off-loaded some of the obscene damage from Demonbolt onto our other abilities.  So we're looking at something like a ~3% loss ST and a little beefier AoE.

[Lolflay 0]

nvm I'm dumb, haven't slept

 

it doesn't seem that's correct, as the poster below me is saying.

Edited February 14, 2015 by Lolflay

[Wallum 1]

Huh, 1413 to 1806 is a about a 22% increase in damage. While 1430 to 1827 is just about the same (.0004% difference).

[spikeysquad 50]

Haven't really looked at the numbers but if the DS really is going back to 30% (it is curently 22.5%) then it will be nice to shift some of the damage out of DB. 3% sounds quite reasonable, 8-9% nerf to ST is not though. 

[Tread 1]

Not as bad as it looks.  The 22.5% -> 30% DS change isn't a tooltip adjustment, but rather an actual buff.  

 

Naked Shadowbolt on Live with NO DS:

 

 

Naked Shadowbolt on Live with DS:

 

 

Naked Shadowbolt on PTR with NO DS:

 

 

Naked Shadowbolt on PTR with DS:

 

 

 

That should compensate for some of the loss of Demonbolt in the single target.  Basically off-loaded some of the obscene damage from Demonbolt onto our other abilities.  So we're looking at something like a ~3% loss ST and a little beefier AoE.

Sorry, mate, but have you been smoking something? The numbers on all 4 of these screens are pretty much the same. DS changes are already up on live and we get no DS buff.

[Liquidsteel 279]

Still need to see proof that Dark Soul is getting the extra 7.5% for sure.

[Lolflay 0]

DS is NOT getting extra buff. It was already live when all the other hotfixes went through a while ago.

 

So yeah, we're looking to recieve a nerf around approx 7% single target DPS, which places Demo below Affli and Destro basically.

[Breklin 0]

DS is NOT getting extra buff. It was already live when all the other hotfixes went through a while ago.

 

So yeah, we're looking to recieve a nerf around approx 7% single target DPS, which places Demo below Affli and Destro basically.

 

Below are several images proving that there was indeed a buff to DS:

 

Live - no DS

 

Live - DS

Here you can easily see there is a 22.5% Mastery increase when popping DS (38.21 - 15.71 = 22.5).

 

Now on the PTR, we have the following (same exact gear):

 

PTR - no DS

 

PTR - DS

 

You can see there is a 30% increase in Mastery on the PTR when popping DS (50.95 - 30 = 20.95). This represents a damage increase of all abilities while in Meta by an additional 15% over live (including DB). So a Demonbolt during DS Meta that does 100,000 damage on live will do 86,250 when 6.1 launches - which is a 13.75% overall nerf.

 

For a fight where DB is 33% of your total damage (taken from our last heroic Gruul kill as an example), this means there is a total nerf of 4.5% on pure single target, just looking at the DB nerf. If you also consider that there was a 15% buff to all other abilities while in Meta during DS, the nerf would be decidedly less than 4.5%.

 

Overall I don't think the sky is falling with this nerf (but it should have been no more than 15-20% imo). I think what blizzard's intent was with this is that you can't have super strong cleave AND super strong single target. For fights like Operator or Beastlord, if you aren't using DS with Demonbolt but rather for cleaving adds, it will hit like a wet noodle in 6.1. However, on pure single target, DB will still be very strong as long as it is paired with DS every single time.

 

p.s. Hopefully the maths check out, let me know if you see any errors.

[Tread 1]

This was discussed on mmo-champion forums. Its just wrong tooltip on live. Check the damage, you will see exact same results.

[Wallum 1]

The Demonbolt nerf is an 8.25% nerf played perfectly and at a 695 ilvl. I can't say how much it differs throughout but it varies on how much % damage DB does for overall damage. For ST it's ~33% which nets an 8.25% nerf. As of right now it will be right above Frost 1h (unless they're getting buffs). which is 9th worse.

 

After the buffs to Destruction, DB and Destro w/CR+GoSac will be very close to the same in pure ST. Affliction, however, still taking the cake. 

 

So basically we have two specs fighting over who's the best in the bottom 10 and the other one sitting just about middle. Blizzard balances pure DPS classes as if we have tertiary specialization and could change them on the fly.

[Vixcis 0]

I don t get it guys i am very confused

Did we get buffed ? Nerfed ? At the 6.1 or actually live ?

I have to say that I noticed a little decrease on my dps (maybe it s because of me raid leading now tho).

It seemed to me that DS 22,5 % ==> 30 % looked like a nice buff. Still confused.

Will those changes make destruction viable again ? Especially with KJ buff ?

Thanks for your quick & accurate answers guys.

Ps : wat does ST stands for pls :p

[taliesin52 3]

I don t get it guys i am very confused

Did we get buffed ? Nerfed ? At the 6.1 or actually live ?

I have to say that I noticed a little decrease on my dps (maybe it s because of me raid leading now tho).

It seemed to me that DS 22,5 % ==> 30 % looked like a nice buff. Still confused.

Will those changes make destruction viable again ? Especially with KJ buff ?

Thanks for your quick & accurate answers guys.

Ps : wat does ST stands for pls

Some changes are live some are coming in 6.1.  We are currently buffed.

 

Yeah raid leading will do that to you.  For example marking the spear that the hunter or ret pally (really?  how does a ret pally even get out to a spear?) gets stuck under and telling everyone to kill it every thirty seconds makes me miss my Demon Bolt CD falling off frequently.

 

Destro is viable, just not a top spec.  KJC buff will help.

 

ST= Single Target

[Furyio 3]

So in short, I need to worry? MY Warlock just became raid reliable after the last wave of buffs, am I baack middle of the pack again? :( 

[Tread 1]

Yes.

[Vixcis 0]

I don t get blizz logic, what are they trying to do ? make us less count on DB ? go cataclysm ? destruction ? wtf ? why ?

 

i m so sac atm. 

Edited February 16, 2015 by Vixcis

[Zagam 1,982]

Here is why the Demonbolt nerf isn't as bad as most think...

 

Link to thread I wrote: http://darkintentions.net/forums/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=40

 

Copy/Paste...

 

What does this nerf mean? Let's explore it a bit.

 

Here's what the values look like live, at 6.0.3:

Demonbolt = 412.5%
Touch of Chaos = 67.2%
Soul Fire = 81.6% (always crits)

 

The only way to really evaluate these is to see the value per Demonic Fury spent.

 

Demonbolt 1 = 412.5% / 80 DF = 5.16 SP/DF
Demonbolt 2 = (1.2 * 412.5%) / 160 DF = 3.09 SP/DF
Demonbolt 3 = (1.4 * 412.5%) / 240 DF = 2.41 SP/DF
Demonbolt 4 = (1.6 * 412.5%) / 320 DF = 2.06 SP/DF
Touch of Chaos = 67.2% / 40 DF = 1.68 SP/DF
Soul Fire = (2+crit chance) * 81.6% / 80 DF (assuming Molten Core) = 2.04 SP/DF

 

These values show why it was beneficial for us to use 4 Demonbolts while in Metamorphosis. However, with the change to Demonbolt, this is what our Demonbolt numbers look like now...

 

Demonbolt 1 = 309.375% / 80 DF = 3.87 SP/DF
Demonbolt 2 = (1.2 * 309.375) / 160 DF = 2.32 SP/DF
Demonbolt 3 = (1.4 * 309.375) / 240 DF = 1.80 SP/DF
Demonbolt 4 = (1.6 * 309.375) / 320 DF = 1.55 SP/DF

 

This shows that DB 3 is just a hair above Touch of Chaos. Keep in mind that Demonbolt has a cast time, so you'd have to calculate that into your DPET. To save you some time and boring details, this means that at a 2 stack of Demonbolt's debuff, Touch of Chaos and Soul Fire are more efficient uses of Demonic Fury. It also shows that Soul Fire is only 21% higher in damage over Touch of Chaos even after the guaranteed crits of SF are considered against never critting with ToC. This shows that ToC will trump SF when you have Crit pushing a value of around 20% keeping in mind cast times and other costs.

This change will need to be properly modeled before simulationcraft accurately represents the damage change.

 

Yes, it's an overall damage loss, which blows, but here are the good things from this change:

1. More Metamorphosis uptime.
2. Easier to maintain Doom outside of burst cycles. It was already easy, but now it doesn't feel like you're killing yourself when you go into Meta to reapply Doom.
3. Higher physical damage mitigation. Now you can pop into Metamorphosis more often for the 250% armor bonus to mitigate abilities like Demolish on Blackhand.
4. This pushes our playstyle away from 8 seconds of burst and back into 20-30 seconds of burst. I miss the model from Cataclysm where Meta lasted 30 seconds (36 with glyph) and you had Impending Doom procs that lowered your 3 minute Meta CD by 15 seconds per proc. This was the only RNG in the game I really liked.
5. This allows for easier adaptation to 10 second trinket procs like we will have in BRF. It was hard to fit in 4 DBs within a 10 second window outside of Dark Soul burns. With this new playstyle, you can actually save Metamorphosis until you get a 10 second proc, pop in, and go.

 

The Glyph of Dark Soul may actually be optimal for short burst periods like this where you can bank charges so long as you don't sit at 2 charges. This will require real testing and can't be modeled realistically.

 

Everyone has their own stance on Demonology. I've personally loved it and it has always been my preferred spec while raiding, so I share a biased view towards all things Demonology. Other Warlocks hate it and only play it when it's the best. I try to provide data and analysis in an unbiased way, so the math is pretty solid barring an arithmetic error, but my reactions, such as this post, are purely my own thoughts and feelings which can always be different from others.

[Zagam 1,982]

Also, your character sheet's statistics have not updated to the 6.1 values.  DS gives 30% Mastery now, similar to how if you look at your mastery on your character sheet, it will differ from the value pulled on the armory which does not require 6.1 to update its values. 

 

If I look at my Mastery in game at 680, it reads 13.92%.  If you look at my armory, it says 18.56%.  The values you see on your character sheet for Mastery are NOT correct - they ARE correct on the armory. 

[KoragonArt 0]

You should post that on the wow subreddit.  It's nothing but doom and gloom over there whenever warlocks are mentioned. Personally I like the idea of being able to incorporate many more ToCs for better movement.

Edited February 16, 2015 by KoragonArt

[Paracel 165]

We've got to really see those changes on live realms for the right math.

A bad omen for sure, yet I think we still could pack a punch.
 

[Nyanchan 2]

Here is why the Demonbolt nerf isn't as bad as most think...

 

Link to thread I wrote: http://darkintentions.net/forums/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=40

 

Copy/Paste...

 

What does this nerf mean? Let's explore it a bit.

 

Here's what the values look like live, at 6.0.3:

Demonbolt = 412.5%

Touch of Chaos = 67.2%

Soul Fire = 81.6% (always crits)

 

The only way to really evaluate these is to see the value per Demonic Fury spent.

 

Demonbolt 1 = 412.5% / 80 DF = 5.16 SP/DF

Demonbolt 2 = (1.2 * 412.5%) / 160 DF = 3.09 SP/DF

Demonbolt 3 = (1.4 * 412.5%) / 240 DF = 2.41 SP/DF

Demonbolt 4 = (1.6 * 412.5%) / 320 DF = 2.06 SP/DF

Touch of Chaos = 67.2% / 40 DF = 1.68 SP/DF

Soul Fire = (2+crit chance) * 81.6% / 80 DF (assuming Molten Core) = 2.04 SP/DF

 

These values show why it was beneficial for us to use 4 Demonbolts while in Metamorphosis. However, with the change to Demonbolt, this is what our Demonbolt numbers look like now...

 

Demonbolt 1 = 309.375% / 80 DF = 3.87 SP/DF

Demonbolt 2 = (1.2 * 309.375) / 160 DF = 2.32 SP/DF

Demonbolt 3 = (1.4 * 309.375) / 240 DF = 1.80 SP/DF

Demonbolt 4 = (1.6 * 309.375) / 320 DF = 1.55 SP/DF

 

This shows that DB 3 is just a hair above Touch of Chaos. Keep in mind that Demonbolt has a cast time, so you'd have to calculate that into your DPET. To save you some time and boring details, this means that at a 2 stack of Demonbolt's debuff, Touch of Chaos and Soul Fire are more efficient uses of Demonic Fury. It also shows that Soul Fire is only 21% higher in damage over Touch of Chaos even after the guaranteed crits of SF are considered against never critting with ToC. This shows that ToC will trump SF when you have Crit pushing a value of around 20% keeping in mind cast times and other costs.

This change will need to be properly modeled before simulationcraft accurately represents the damage change.

 

Yes, it's an overall damage loss, which blows, but here are the good things from this change:

1. More Metamorphosis uptime.

2. Easier to maintain Doom outside of burst cycles. It was already easy, but now it doesn't feel like you're killing yourself when you go into Meta to reapply Doom.

3. Higher physical damage mitigation. Now you can pop into Metamorphosis more often for the 250% armor bonus to mitigate abilities like Demolish on Blackhand.

4. This pushes our playstyle away from 8 seconds of burst and back into 20-30 seconds of burst. I miss the model from Cataclysm where Meta lasted 30 seconds (36 with glyph) and you had Impending Doom procs that lowered your 3 minute Meta CD by 15 seconds per proc. This was the only RNG in the game I really liked.

5. This allows for easier adaptation to 10 second trinket procs like we will have in BRF. It was hard to fit in 4 DBs within a 10 second window outside of Dark Soul burns. With this new playstyle, you can actually save Metamorphosis until you get a 10 second proc, pop in, and go.

 

The Glyph of Dark Soul may actually be optimal for short burst periods like this where you can bank charges so long as you don't sit at 2 charges. This will require real testing and can't be modeled realistically.

 

Everyone has their own stance on Demonology. I've personally loved it and it has always been my preferred spec while raiding, so I share a biased view towards all things Demonology. Other Warlocks hate it and only play it when it's the best. I try to provide data and analysis in an unbiased way, so the math is pretty solid barring an arithmetic error, but my reactions, such as this post, are purely my own thoughts and feelings which can always be different from others.

 

So i might be completely misunderstanding your post but then it will mean that for 6.1, it will be meta -> demon bolt x2 -> spam toc (if i have 20% crit)? this sounds awful...

[spikeysquad 50]

Thanks for the info Zagam. 

 

Nyanchan I actually have the opposite opinion to you. I personally do not like the regimented get 850 fury>meta>DBX4>Doom then caster for another 35-50 seconds. If it does turn out that it is 2 DBs only then it will be more similar to the end of MoP/Cata playstle which gives us more options during boss fights in how we build and spend fury but we do lose the diversity between talent choices that we have now. 

Edited February 17, 2015 by spikeysquad

[Recklessfear 33]

So i might be completely misunderstanding your post but then it will mean that for 6.1, it will be meta -> demon bolt x2 -> spam toc (if i have 20% crit)? this sounds awful...

 

 

how did you feel about MoP demo because with the exception of hog weaving, that's what it is.

[KoragonArt 0]

Is it really toc spam after the 2 demonbolts? Even if you have mc stacks? Seems like soul fire is starting hit decently hard in meta with procs and cds.

[Puns 3]

If you need particularly high burst at certain times of the fight (primal elementalists for example) you will want to use x4 demonbolts and perhaps soulfires inside meta as well. Zagam's post is about efficiency and maximing dps over mid to long range fights.

[iriecolorado 3]

So i might be completely misunderstanding your post but then it will mean that for 6.1, it will be meta -> demon bolt x2 -> spam toc (if i have 20% crit)? this sounds awful...

 

More like say goodbye to Demonbolt and run AD/GoServ/DS instead.  Instead of being a fixed turret with 33% of your damage coming from Demonbolt it will come passively from your Doomguards.  "You're now free to move about the encounter."  *DING*

Edited February 17, 2015 by iriecolorado