Boomkin DPS help. Logs included plus more.

[Kazewulf 0]

Hey all. I've been researching and maining a boomkin since this xpac and felt like I've been doing pretty well overall. Last night heroic BRF wasn't great so wanted to get feedback from the community about what I could do better.

Armory: us.battle.net/wow/en/character/medivh/Kazewulf/simple
Logs: www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/gQWwhv84rTVxDA1R#fight=7&type=damage-done&source=45

Druids name is Kazewulf.

I'm specifically looking at Gruul but will take criticism and advice on the others we did as well. I know why I wasn't top on Operator as I wasn't just spamming starfall as aoe/cleave isn't as important as ST to burn down Thogar, Man at arms, and the fire chicks. I usually starfall when I have an extra charge up and I am about to cap and there are adds up.

Here is my opener:
6s pre-pot
4s Inc
1-2s CA and Shards and Starsurge
Moonfire
Starfire x2
Starsuge
Starfire x2
Starsurge
Moonfire (usually around here I have a few secs left on CA)
begin standard rotation

I started casting starsurge first since I've noticed that using moonfire first sometimes procs a charge before I get off a starsurge so instead of wasting the initial proc I precast the starsurge so that I can starfall immediately with empowerment.


Issues I feel like I'm having are not casting enough starfalls and not sure why.

thanks all!

Edited February 20, 2015 by Kazewulf

[Krazyito 521]

Do you mean starfire when you say starfall? 

[Shedim 13]

You apply your dots (moonfire/sunfire) 6.5 seconds into the fight. You also seem to waste the majority of your Celestial Alignment being idle. Was this a ninjapull? And why would you prepot so early. 

 

I use the following opener:

 

-4.5: Incarnation (if talent chosen)

-3.0: Prepot + Wrath

-1.5: Starsurge

0.0: CA + (Trinkets) + Moonfire + Solarbeam

Starfire

Starfire

Starsurge

etc.

 

The idea is that you cast a Starsurge right after your Wrath. The projectiles will fire at once, and if timed correctly, they will both hit the boss on exactly 0:00 where you also apply both your dots and cast Solarbeam. The GCD is 1.5 by default. You might wanna alter the numbers a bit based on your amount of haste so you don't end up pulling too early. Also make sure you're standing as far away from the boss as possible, so the casts don't reach the boss before your GCD has ended (or you won't be able to cast Moonfire on 0:00 mark). 

[Krazyito 521]

Don't precast wrath to just to have it land at the same time as starsurge. What's the point in that? Precast starfire because it's your highest DPET spell. Hell, execution time doesn't even matter for a precast. Use the hardest hitting spell. Just time it so it lands at 0 and then starsurge after. This will result in the same thing, but a slightly bigger opener (especially of you get lucky crits) 

 

Refer to this post for more help on the opener. 

 

 https://www.icy-veins.com/forums/topic/10317-boomkin-critique-log-inside-guide-on-boomkin-opener/

[Shedim 13]

I disagree. The difference between Wrath and Starfire is the fact that Wrath has a travel time and Starfire doesn't. You can use this to your advantage. Using my opener you will be able to land a Wrath, a Starsurge and apply all your dots within the same global, while use your opener will only allow you to fit in a Starfire and your dots on the first global. 

[Krazyito 521]

What difference does it make to do the damage in the same global? All the damage is going to happen anyway, why use softer hitting abilities just to do some "trick".

Assuming nothing crits, the damage you gain for saving that 1 global can be negligible, or less, compared to using a harder hitting starfire.

In those odds, I'd rather rely on a starfire crit.

[Shedim 13]

"All the damage is going to happen anyway". No. That's about the same as saying you should use Incarnation after the pull, because it doesn't matter. It does matter how much damage you can actually deal without pulling the boss. 

 

If I were to use the rotation you refer to, I would gain 1 free Starfire by precasting it. 

Using my follower I gain 1 free Wrath and 1 free Starsurge. I would say that the damage of Starsurge + Wrath exceeds a Starfire. Not to mention you already have the empowerments before pull this way, which means you can get off more empowered Starfires during the CA window. To back up my claim, here is my highest DPS attempt on Mythic Gruul, zoomed on the 6 minute time the fight lasts until enrage. 

 

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/t1HbNJgwMmPZArTC#type=damage-done&fight=25&start=8888086&end=9254380

[Krazyito 521]

First, no its not the same. Because I'm not suggesting you dont use a damage modifier when Precasting. Second, where do you get this free starsurge? The ONLY difference between the two is what spell we are using. I'm still suggesting to use Starsurge after the precast and then into CA.

Literally the only difference is what spell we precast and "the time the spells hit the boss" has no real impact on your overall dps.

Sure you hit 2 spells at once, but the globals you spend are the exact same. (and don't say it isn't, because the precast spell can be essentially counted as an instant spell without a GCD)

The only difference, again, is the time your spells hit the boss and the strength of the spell. Which again, I will take the stronger hitting spell.

[Shedim 13]

I don't think you understand the opener I explained.

 

I precast Wrath, then I precast Starsurge. On pull I cast Moonfire.

 

You precast Starfire. On pull you cast Starsurge.

Edited February 19, 2015 by Shedim

[Shedim 13]

My opener:

-3.0: Wrath

-1.5: Starsurge

0.0: Moonfire

 

As you can see I get a Wrath and a Starsurge off before pull. Those are "free"

 

Your opener:

-2.0: Starfire

0.0: Starsurge

 

You only gain 1 free Starfire, by precasting that instead. 

 

Do you agree on this?

Wrath+Starsurge > Starfire

[Krazyito 521]

I don't understand where you get this incarnation thing either. It's not the same at all. When the amount of globals used is the same and the only difference is which spell you use, then I don't see where incarnation fits. We agree on everything except which spell we are casting which is going to make up like 0.1% of your dps difference.

If it's not that big of a deal, but there's no way you're going to tell me that overall damage is more in the same scenario just because all your spells landed at the same time.

[Krazyito 521]

I agree on that, but I do not agree that is what we are comparing. Just because combat starts 1 global later for you doesn't mean the starsurge are "free"

[Shedim 13]

The damage is not higher because the abilities land at the same time. The damage is higher because you have 2 cast projectiles in their air before the boss is pulled. Those are "free" because they were casted before pull, but did not actually pull the boss. The fact that the abilities hit at the same time is just a result of this, which is used to explain WHY it is possible. 

[Krazyito 521]

And again, just because you're starting a second later doesn't mean it's free damage. Sure your "dps" might look higher in the first 2-3 seconds, but your overall damage will suffer. (again, miniscule)

[Shedim 13]

How will my damage suffer? We have the exact same conditions on the pull. The difference is that I get my Starsurge off before the pull, meaning I can use Moonfire 1 GCD earlier, which means I can fit one more GCD in the CA window. The only cost is that Wrath deals less damage than Starfire, but this is far outweighed by the gain of a GCD and thus an extra free ability before the pull.

[Krazyito 521]

meaning I can use Moonfire 1 GCD earlier, which means I can fit one more GCD in the CA window.

What magic GCD are you gaining in CA? We are NOT talking about CA. Our CA window is the SAME. we are talking about the 3 gcds before CA. (precast, starsurge, CA/MF)

Once you pop moonfire with CA you have the same amount of time under it as I do doing the same things. (which is starfirex2 starsurge, etc..)

When the only difference between what we are doing is what spell we cast, I again, will choose the harder hitting one.

Until you realize that that is the only difference, then we can't really discuss it anymore until you show me otherwise.

Your "dps" will look higher in the first couple seconds (maybe) because more things are hitting the boss in that second. But overall damage in that same time frame is lower because of spell selection

Edited February 19, 2015 by Krazyito

[Shedim 13]

Oh yeah, just realized you aren't using CA for the first Starsurge. This is largely irrelevant for the sake of this argument so leave that be.

 

Where does the 'magic' GCD come from? Let's compare when we use CA and Moonfire?

We're assuming we have 0% haste and a GCD therefore lasts 1.5 seconds.

 

My opener:

-3.5: Wrath (2 second cast)

-1.5: Starsurge (GCD)

0.0: CA + Moonfire

 

Your opener:

-3.0: Starfire (3 second cast)

0.0: Starsurge (GCD)

1.5: CA + Moonfire

 

Now, as you can see, your opener is delayed 1.5 seconds of mine. I did nearly the same damage as you in one less GCD. This is where the magic GCD comes from. Now, I empathized nearly, because you did use a higher DPET ability on the opener though. Let's compare how effective this is:

 

If you normalize the power of the abilities you get the following values: (It's pre-pull so they're affected equally by Eclipse)

 

Wrath: 100

Starfire: 160

Starsurge: 200

 

As you can see, Starfire deals 60% more damage. So if the only thing that differed in our openers was the choice of pre-cast ability, you would win by 60% here. Starfire is clearly better. BUT, as Wrath doesn't hit instantly unlike Starfire, I actually gain an additional GCD, which I can use before pull. I use this GCD on Starsurge. My total opener value is now 300 while your opener is 160. That is nearly twice as much damage I manage to precast. 

Edited February 19, 2015 by Shedim

[Krazyito 521]

You don't get an extra GCD in CA though. You're only starting CA a GCD sooner from the start of combat which again has 0 effect on total damage before you even use CA, which is the only point that matters here.

Just because spells are hitting the boss in less time (relative to the 'start of the encounter') does not increase your overall damage. Just the 'dps' in that one GCD.

[Krazyito 521]

I'm going to back off for a sec and going to think about this now. Cause now the discussion is actually going somewhere and I see what are differences are.

You're using the relative time of when the boss encounter starts as a damage increase, when I see total damage done before CA is cast.

I'm still not convinced that wrath is better because that one extra GCD I have in combat before I pop CA does not mean I would do less damage.

Maybe within that first 2 seconds, but it's still farfetched for me.

[Shedim 13]

It is a minimal damage increase. Using Starfire is not bad. I've seen a few good Balance Druids using just a Starsurge for precasting as well. It won't influence your total damage significantly, but what we're doing here is just discussing the most optimal opener.

 

Using my opener will on average yield 87.5% ((100+200)/160) more damage before the combat actually starts.

[Shedim 13]

And then I am 1 GCD ahead as well as you can see. This is not much, but still an increase. Especially because my dots land on the target 1 GCD earlier, which also means a slight increase in Starsurge procs during the heroism/trinket proc window. 

[Krazyito 521]

I think you're over valuing starsurge in your normalized values.

Based on your logs starfire did 69k average vs starsurge 64k. Now let's assume most of those starfire were empowered, so we reduce starfire to about 53k (which add 30% of 53k makes 69k~)

Based on that the normalized values should be closer to

Wrath: 100

Starfire: 115

Starsurge: 128

(offset of 62 points [100 - 38] (38 being the average wrath with 30% buff))

Was too lazy to lower wrath right now, but I'll give it the extra for the sake of the argument.

Edited February 19, 2015 by Krazyito
Fixed math cause I suck

[Krazyito 521]

Whoa I math failed hard. Let me fix that

[Shedim 13]

Check your Spellbook. Divide Starsurge's damage by Wrath's damage and you get 2. Divide Starfire's damage by Wrath's damage and you get 1.6. This is where I get the numbers 100, 160, and 200 from. 

 

On pull the eclipse bar is centered at 0 until combat beings. All the abilities are therefore affected by an equal amount.

Wrath: on the middle, affected by 50% of mastery

Starfall: on the middle, affected by 50% of the mastery.

Starsurge: affected by the highest eclipse bonus. They're equal, so Starsurge is also affected by 50% mastery.

[Orthios 271]

I think you're over valuing starsurge in your normalized values.

Based on your logs starfire did 69k average vs starsurge 64k. Now let's assume most of those starfire were empowered, so we reduce starfire to about 66k (which add 30% of 66k makes 69k~)

Just going to correct the math here, but if starfire gets a 30% buff and averages 69k, then without the 30% buff it averages 53k (69k / 1.3 = x), not 66k. If it were 66k before the 30% buff, you'd see an 86k average.