Blood TPS issues

[TeamC 6]

Hello all,

 

I wanted to solicit some feedback to help improve my performance in HM BRF, primarily where TPS is concerned. I feel like the MT (BM Monk) habitually has to cut way back after tank swaps, and in any sort of single target situation where which of us has aggro isn't an issue he wipes the floor with me. This primarily affects fights with single boss switches, like Oregorger, Gruul, Kromag, etc. I don't lose threat to him in group fights like Hanz + Franz, or Maidens.

 

I was generally f̶r̶u̶s̶t̶r̶a̶t̶e̶d̶   okay with that being the case because I was chalking it up bit to him being a good player, and it really wasn't impacting our success as a raid. But after a few Blast Furnace attempts tonight, I was all too aware that our fill-in tank (Prot Warrior) was basically looking at the mobs and ripping them left and right from the pull. I couldn't keep aggro with the standard use of diseases, blood boil, etc. And on the slag behemoth right before Blast Furnace I had a decent lead in time as the only tank, had used BoS, Glyphed DRW, and the Warrior arrived and the mob went right to him. I didn't see any notification of a taunt or anything.

 

I feel like I'm not using a bad rotation and that I have a good feel for my CDs, as surviving and HPS is generally not something I find to be an issue, but I'd appreciate any help on my TPS.

My Armory: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/character/windrunner/Cyanni/advanced

- necklace is just from tonight, haven't enchanted it yet. Redid enchants and gems to try out Multistrike for Breath of Sindragosa uses. Had habitually been all Mastery prior, using Defile. Still had TPS issues, so I'm not sure the switch was directly responsible.

 

Tonight's Logs: https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/Tm9LN4djVgPCx6h7#boss=-3

 

Warrior's Armory: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/character/windrunner/Zarkul/advanced

 

Monk's Armory: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/character/windrunner/Lynux/advanced

 

I appreciate any help that comes my way.

[Fennalie 1]

Hiya, 

I don't tank that much since we have 2 beast tanks and I am the third tank for mythic but anyhow I'll throw in my 2 cents :p.

I gotta say I haven't had any sort of aggro problem from any other tank classes at all, on beastlord when we tried three tanking I even took aggro from the boss even though I wasn't really all out hitting him or anything. When we did tank swap I also had no problem holding aggro but still it could be because the other tanks weren't hitting my boss (may be,although I like to chalk this down as my own glorious death striking spam skills in my head).

That said our aoe got nerfed remember so with other tanks going all out (I'm guessing by adds you meant on pull?) we won't be taking all the threat. However if it's not causing you wipes then I don't think its an issue you should be worried about to be honest. If it is causing adds splitting problems on furnace then you could ask the other tank to go slower or utilize your Dark Command, Grip and Gorefiend to group your designated bunch together. Also ask for tricks/md/tranq grips + slows and roots til your DC/DG is off cd (why not?).

My gears are the same as yours for my tank spec with some trinket differences but I doubt that is the difference. Personally if you can hold aggro from the dps/healers, mitigate the relevant stuff, taunt at appropriate times you have done your job so I wouldn't be worried bout losing aggro at Behemoth where it doesn't matter who tanks it and how long for :). Plus, if it is getting you down a bit, don't worry, your time to shine is at blackhand balcony p2 :P

[Morgulz 1]

Hi, 

 

I play as second Tank in our Raid. Our MT is a Prot War (also, our GM), and I know how you feel.

Fact is, my Mt tends to play very aggressively and I can't seems to keep the aggro when we  are tanking multiple mobs.

 

However, I never had any troubles in single target fights, or switch situations.

 

I don't think you should worry about it. It's frustrating because as a tank you'll want your share of the damage to make it easier for the healers, but I understood that most of the time it doesn't really matter.

 

As Fennalie said, I sometimes ask him to stop bursting at the beginning of a fight so I can build some threat, but it's rarely needed.

[TeamC 6]

I appreciate the feedback. I guess what bugs me is that if they yank a few mobs in an aoe situation that's not such a big deal, but I feel like my threat is abysmal by comparison, and it makes me think there's something I'm doing wrong or could just do better. I was a bit embarrassed tonight when the MT left early and the bench tank pretty much came in and ripped everything he could on basically every pull, including Foreman Feldspar who was my primary target my assignment to tank. I've tanked on my DK since WotLK and I've never really felt like I was ever having this much difficulty until tonight.

[simpetar 12]

Good and ongoing communication with your tank buddy is the key here. Ask them nicely not to burst on targets they are not assigned to tank. I had this issue with my protadin mate, kept losing aggro even on single target, that created several messy situations. After few pulls I discovered that he popped Seraphim + Holy Avenger right after I taunted. Asking nicely helped  

 

Less important adds can be tanked by any tank, it should not matter too much. If you feel your co-tank has them all and you feel jealous, simply taunt a few away. Just make sure it does not interfere with boss mechanics and/or you will not need taunt again soon (for boss swapping).

 

For important adds you will be probably assigned to 1. pick them up and hold aggro and 2. NOT have aggro on mobs you should leave alone. The same applies for your co-tank. A beautiful example are adds on Furnace, where you need to separate Firecallers and Security Guards. Taunt is mandatory and in DK case also Death Grip. Speak up when something is beating on you that should not be and vice versa.

 

One last thing about communication: it helps to let your co-tank know in advance that you are going to taunt - especially in boss switching debuff-stack-based mechanics (e.g. Butcher, Kromog etc.) When you say something like "Taunting in 5", they will know not to use big burst that lasts 20 seconds. A great tank can keep track of everything including stack debuff things on you, but talking hurts less than a wipe  

[Bearbehemoth 3]

I'm a Blood Dk tank , and I have not noticed any inherent class issue with TPS as AOE or ST.

 

The main criticism with Blood DK AOE is that to get loads of it, you need to use Death Runes on Bloodboil, which means you are not spending them on DS. Most other tank classes do not need to sacrifice survival for AOE, so if you are taking big hits you need to choose one or the other. 

On fights like Furnace where the adds can come thick and fast at times, or build up, maintaining threat can have issues because of this.

 

Also - Both Prot Warriors and Monks have something you do not - an ability to auto taunt via Mocking Banner or Black Ox Statue. These abilities will constantly taunt the adds and there is nothing you can realistically do to keep aggro. Check to see if your tank buddies are popping these at the start to make life easier on themselves.

Edit: technically AotD can be your autotaunt, but that is not its intended purpose and it can be more of a hindrance than a blessing.

 

 

As for single target - you may get out TPSed if you are trying to carefully time your DS strikes and the other tank is going all out button mashing. I normally blow them all to start with to build agrro, then settle into a better rotation once the pull is over. 

 

If taunt swaps mid fight is the issue, then pool RP prior to the swap and blow Death Coils or Death Strikes as soon as you have taunted. This will make good use of the Threat modifier that you'll get with Dark Command.

 

Looking at your gear, you should not be struggling. You have enough Multistrike to generate TDS, and a nice amout of mastery that your should not fall over 2 seconds into the fight. Try the above tips and see if they help.

[TeamC 6]

Thanks, Bear and Simpetar for your feedback. It's much appreciated. 

 

@ Bear - I do tend to do the RP pooling in preparation for tank swaps, particularly when there are parts of the fight where I'm mostly just doing nothing more than DPS, fights like Gruul and Oregorger. I think part of the issue is that -- like you said -- I'm in a state where I'm kind of sitting on my DS waiting for a hit to heal rather than using it proactively, while the other tank is effectively running their rotation and catching up to/overtaking me as a result. I'm not entirely sure how to counteract this because overhealing with DS seems wasteful and counter-intuitive. Having played other tanks like the Brewmaster, it seems like you can always at least be hitting Tiger Palm while waiting for your Energy or Chi, and DK doesn't seem to have that "spammable" ability, though it does seem like you'll have RP for DCs if your runes are down and vice versa. We really only do Heroics, not Mythics, so perhaps I'm being overly cautions with my DS usage?

 

@ Simpetar - Yeah, that's the one thing the BM Monk and I had going was we did communicate pretty well. He knew he had to give me just a few seconds to establish aggro after a pull, and I think the warrior was pretty much just going balls to the wall on aggro, pulling everything and promptly dying as a result. He and I hadn't tanked together and have no real dialog outside or inside of raids, so we'll have to establish one if he's going to continue to tank, otherwise I think HM-BF will take a lifetime...

[simpetar 12]

Rather than pooling RP I suggest saving runes for tank switch. If threat is a bigger concern than your surival, you probably want to use 2 Death Strikes right after taunt. Taunt (among other things) increases your generated threat by 200% for 3 seconds, or 2 GCDs. If you manage to use 2 Death Strikes during this time, you are golden: DS is the biggest aggro generator in your arsenal (on par with warrior Shield Slam, paladin SotR and others). DC is a filler and its aggro is much lower (on par with warrior Devastate, or monk Tiger Palm).

 

If you are at RP cap, and use DS twice in taunt's window, at least 43 RP will be wasted (40 from DS + 3 from Blood Presence passive generation). 

[Bearbehemoth 3]

Re RP pooling - sorry I meant resources in general. DS is your big threat maker for ST as simpetar states. The only issue with this is that those 2x DSes are going to put up some pretty pathetic shields as you will not have taken much damage whilst not tanking. Does that matter? generally not, as you will probably not be falling over from the first few hits.

 

Regarding "waiting for a hit to heal", I find the logic on this playstyle a bit cumbersome as even big spikes are only a small part of the total damage you will have taken in the last 10 seconds. I personally drag the damage taken graph from recount and have it off to the side of my screen - It can be used to quickly see all damage taken in the last 10 seconds, not just a single hit.

 

So when i can see that damage starting to rocket upwards I can blow the extra runes (and plaguebearer etc) on more DSs to capitalise on that damage. This is just me though, the accepted "way to play" is to wait for a big hit.

[simpetar 12]

 

Regarding "waiting for a hit to heal", I find the logic on this playstyle a bit cumbersome as even big spikes are only a small part of the total damage you will have taken in the last 10 seconds. I personally drag the damage taken graph from recount and have it off to the side of my screen - It can be used to quickly see all damage taken in the last 10 seconds, not just a single hit.

We will probably have a big disagreement here

 

1. Big spikes are what kills tanks. Tanks seldom die from smooth and predictable damage, no matter how big it is - healers can deal with that, because they can... well... predict it. Big spikes make them panic. If neither your healers, nor you are ready for big spikes (i.e. you have at least 1 pair of runes for DS), you are in risk of dying.

 

2. Why 10 seconds? If you are referring to Resolve, it is passive. You have little to no control over your Resolve. It is baked-in to the encounter, depending on difficulty, raid size and other external factors. When you take one or more big hits, you will want to heal yourself back up whether you have 20% or 200%. If you hold DS until your resolve is high, you are setting yourself up to get killed.

 

3. Blood Shield is 10ish times weaker than it used to be in MoP and Cata. You cannot spam DS mindlessly BEFORE you are hit and hope that it will soak the next hit. Blood Shield wil get fully eaten by the very next boss' autoattack in WoD raid environment. DS is REactive mitigation. You have other tools in your arsenal to be used PROactively.

Edited March 28, 2015 by simpetar

[Bearbehemoth 3]

Yeah, I know how you are supposed to play them - the DS on big hits etc. But I personally play a bit differently and fair just fine.

 

For upcoming damage spikes I rune tap (Or AMS depending on damage type) to mitigate it up front. And I treat DS as a heal and blap them out when my health bar takes a pummelling - whether it is spiked or sustained.

 

DKs have so many awesome CDs they have something for every possibility, and can Proactively handle almost every situation.

 

But- like I said, its just me, and the way I play. I currently cover HC content 8/10 and I have never had a problem with feeling like I am squishy - quite the opposite in fact.

[Redfella 51]

A little point that is often overlooked, is that Dark Command not only forces the target to attack you, but also increases threat that you generate against the target for 3 seconds. Death Grip doesn't do that, so you should always use Dark Command as a taunt, instead of Death Grip. Make sure to Death Strike + Death Coil after a taunt to maximize the value of the short buff.

 

Also, while actively tanking, if the taunt swap isn't due inside the next 20 seconds and you find your co-tank getting near your threat level, it's better to Dark Command the target and Death Strike + Death Coil right after, giving you a nice extra threat burst to keep safely ahead.

 

The 20 seconds part of the advice is due taunt diminishing returns, if you keep taunting for extra threat on quick taunt swap bosses, the boss will quickly become taunt immune and you'll be in a world of hurt.

Edited July 21, 2015 by Redfella

[Kelaan 0]

Good and ongoing communication with your tank buddy is the key here. ... I had this issue with my protadin mate, kept losing aggro even on single target, that created several messy situations. After few pulls I discovered that he popped Seraphim + Holy Avenger right after I taunted. Asking nicely helped 

 

As a blood DK, I agree with the above posters: prioritize using death strikes right after a taunt, as they are the hardest hitting GCDs we have.  I also just taunt it back if my co-tank overaggros me in the early part of the fight in most cases.  Making sure to use those 6 seconds of increased threat generation nearly always makes it a non-issue. My initial pull seems to have settled as: taunt, DRW, DS, DS, Outbreak (it doubles diseases due to Dancing Rune Weapons).

 

Bursty Co-Tank Perspective: Rather than saying, "Don't be bursty!," consider talking about how to use it, or how to handle it.  Saying "You have high initial TPS, you should pull the boss initially" goes a LONG way.  I've nearly never met a tank who had ego over that, and anyone with enough threat to rip from you initially probably won't mind being the initial tank.

 

I main a prot pally, and love my blood DK as well.  My normal co-tank is a blood DK (with much better gear than me).  If I'm using Seraphim and HA, I absolutely burn those on the pull (and nearly on cooldown thereafter), because I want to be using them during potion + heroism. This means that, with a pre-potion, my DPS is often going to be higher than his, even if I don't taunt.  This is okay! Prot pally has so many tools to rectify, e.g. hand of Salvation (ignore my threat) on myself, bubble myself, turn off RF at the start, etc.  If I don't use Seraphim + HA, my geared DK co-tank will often pull aggro from me. ;)

 

Seraphim comes up every 30 seconds, and not using it on cooldown is a pretty large DPS loss for a paladin tank.  This means that while I like to use it as a defensive CD or during HA for burst, I will also use it in AOE adds, or when I am not the active tank.  If your co-tank uses Seraphim, they probably are doing similarly.  Any time they use HA, they also will have Hand of Salvation available to use on themselves (both are 2 min CDs) if necessary, too.

Our normal tactic is that either my co-tank taunts a Second Time if I pull ahead (which is nearly always fine), or I just end up pulling the boss initially (more common).  I can't recall many fights (other than perhaps Gruul) where the co-tank pulling aggro a few seconds in is catastrophic (which is a good reason to use Salv), and any one where it's important is usually a fight where you're either not having taunt immunity (Gruul), or the tank-swap mechanic isn't happening right away (Butcher), or where your bursty co-tank can focus on a priority add (Flamebender).

On Kargath, I recall I often would overtake him -- but the debuff mechanics worked such that it was never a problem for my co-tank to taunt it back.  As long as they + you know what's going to happen, it's never a problem.  As Simpetar says, ongoing communication is key.

 

Good and ongoing communication with your tank buddy is the key here. ... One last thing about communication: it helps to let your co-tank know in advance that you are going to taunt - especially in boss switching debuff-stack-based mechanics (e.g. Butcher, Kromog etc.) ... talking hurts less than a wipe 

 

This is far and away one of the most important take-aways. Talking about tank swaps ("I'm taking him...", "I'll take him in 7 seconds") is tremendously helpful for most co-tanks.

 

Bursting on later tank swaps is nearly never a problem, though. Aggro happens when you overtake the current aggro target (tank) by 10%, which is a larger and larger number the longer the fight goes.  I can't think of many times this has ever been a problem, short of tectus motes -- and then it's often a matter of either getting all of them (seraphim) or none of them (no seraphim) on me.

 

TL;DR: Talk ahead of time with your co-tank. Consider changing who tanks first (don't have ego) or who tanks an add, and don't be afraid (in most cases) to just taunt things back.  Pool your death strikes before a taunt, so you can maximize threat post-taunt, and you should be fine.