6.2 Buffs/Nerfs

[taliesin52 3]

I think  this is mostly due to the bug in BRF (that they have never acknowledged or fixed) of DoTs doing damage to targets that are already dead. This hugely inflates Demo numbers and gives them grounds for bad ideas.

 

Demo is the most complex spec, at least for warlocks and arguable the game, I also agree that I don't think that it is playable to max without some addons. Demo is far from intuitive and can be down right weird to juggle sometimes, but that was the appeal of it.

 

Demo is made to look worse then it is because of how gutted Aff and Destro became. Aff is absolutely the most brain dead spec there is now, you can't even really Multi-DoT and without snap shotting there is NOTHING to do in the spec. Give me an afternoon and a semi-trained rottweiler and I can teach him to play Aff.

 

Desto isn't really all that much better, it is slightly more complex but not by very much at all.

 

Over all Aff is a -20 on a scale of 1-10 of difficulty and Desto is maybe a 4/10. Then there is Demo sitting there at a 8.5/10. The answer here, IMO, isn't to nerf Demo but rather buff (skill level and complexity, not numbers) of Aff and Destro. The sad part is this kind of overhall is never going to happen in a mid-xpack patch.

 

Blizzard also didn't help the situation with the failure that Demonbolt was. I don't know who on the Dev team thought that one up or who approved it in the face of every respectable warlock begging them not to do it, but ya...that was dumb.

 

 

This is the demo we're getting people, nerfed to hell and back to drive the community away from it. Get out your drool buckets for when you play aff and ready your poor Incinerate finger for destro. Welcome to patch 6.2.

Play the nerfed Demo while you can because I'm not particularly confident that Demo Revamp #536 that we'll get in 7.0 will be any more interesting or fun than current Aff.

[Zagam 1,982]

It's a cop out.  Use your developer time to balance specs and classes. 

 

Newsflash - players of EVERY CLASS WILL ALWAYS PLAY THE MOST POWERFUL SPEC.  It's why theorycrafting, guides, fansites, and the top tier players are consulted and learned from - so they can maximize their performance in a game where numbers actually matter.  The fact that a lead designer said "It's time for xyz to be the weakest" is mind-numbingly infuriating to me.  Do they throw a dart at a spec and go "ITS YOUR TURN TO SUCK!"? 

 

Extremely disappointed.  Maybe top tier players want to play Demonology because it's the only non-boring spec?  I don't want to look like a Fire Mage or a Shadow Priest. 

[Recklessfear 33]

I think the HM level of balance between specs is what they should strive for. 

 

Each spec saw different fights, and that's how it should be.

 

This "time for X to be worst" is stupid balancing because not only will another spec excel on the fights that push their own mechanics (kromog and destro for example), but also on every other fight.

 

Devs really letting me down here.

[vaeevictiss 17]

It's a cop out.  Use your developer time to balance specs and classes. 

 

Newsflash - players of EVERY CLASS WILL ALWAYS PLAY THE MOST POWERFUL SPEC.  It's why theorycrafting, guides, fansites, and the top tier players are consulted and learned from - so they can maximize their performance in a game where numbers actually matter.  The fact that a lead designer said "It's time for xyz to be the weakest" is mind-numbingly infuriating to me.  Do they throw a dart at a spec and go "ITS YOUR TURN TO SUCK!"? 

 

Extremely disappointed.  Maybe top tier players want to play Demonology because it's the only non-boring spec?  I don't want to look like a Fire Mage or a Shadow Priest. 

im more upset at the fact they said its demo locks turn to suck...because it has been the top spec since vanilla right? lol

 

demo has been the worst spec for far more time than the other two.

 

UPDATE: I found a leaked video of some guy playing a warlock in 6.2

 

 

Edited June 14, 2015 by vaeevictiss

[Stunlocked 8]

Forgive me if I am missing something. I know Watcher said some stupid stuff about Demo, but when I look at the numbers floating around so far, it still seems like a strong spec for 6.2. Affliction only send to pull way ahead with the 4p, which seems to be so strong that it might be needed. I personally don't like Demo so I won't be sad to get rid of it, but are people overreacting?

[vaeevictiss 17]

the problem is they basically came out and said they want to revamp it for the casuals. Demo was the one spec that really took some sort of skill to play well. Now they want to dumb that down to Aff/Destro levels. This is the problem with the more seasoned locks. We enjoy the playstyle of demo because it is challenging and fun. Not boring like the other two...ignoring my signature obviously lol. it was something i made several expansions ago.

[Liquidsteel 279]

I don't think Demonology is that much harder to play any more to be quite honest. Certainly there was a much larger contrast in MoP than now. It has some entry level nuances which aren't implicitly obvious, but I feel the skill gap is much narrower. 

[taliesin52 3]

I don't think Demonology is that much harder to play any more to be quite honest. Certainly there was a much larger contrast in MoP than now. It has some entry level nuances which aren't implicitly obvious, but I feel the skill gap is much narrower. 

Other than not burning SF in human form and maintaining your 2 stack of HoG what complexity is there really?

[spikeysquad 50]

Yeah Recklessfear Highmaul was good in that sense though swapping through 3 specs was a pain in the arse as well (at least for me). Bracken and Imp for Destro, Tectus for Demo and Aff (or perhaps any) for the other 4? Pre DB buff this is.

 

So I am glad that people find Demo so easy and natural but I would definitely say that you guys are in a small minority and perhaps have been playing the spec for years? If you read logs a lot from all manner of players, even ones who have read guides and/or raiding mythic, then you will see there are a lot of aspects which can be seen as basic but that are not obvious to people and that they really do not understand. 

 

Guides give a very basic outline but very few talk about proper fury and resource management and the importance of DS and how to use it optimally. I would also suggest the choice of HoG or to CW is also complexity or at least separates the good from the rest. I do tend to believe that most of my knowledge comes from not from guides but from posts in multiple forums. I would have never have gotten to the place I am now without this so for people who do not read a lot and like me cannot do the maths they will be left behind more than in the other 2 lock specs.

 

Saying all this though I do not think that is a bad thing. Wasn't it once said that complexity should be rewarded? What about the specs in game that are actually harder? Will they get the same treatment? Do people really think you need addons for Demo and not for Affliction and Destro? It's the same principles of resource management and reacting to procs. What a stupid point to make.

 

I really enjoy Demo and I will despair if it goes further down the same route as Affliction and Destro (especially CR). I do notice a general "dumbing down" anyhow from earlier times. Now a good-excellent player and a poor-average one are so much closer in damage output in my opinion and probably more at mercy from RNG.

 

In my opinion like already said the issue isn't Demo being too strong as such (though the 4 set bonus is OP and Demo overall has a better toolkit) or too complex. It's been the other 2 specs not being good enough or engaging enough (though now with better gear they are on a much more even level).

 

Edited for clarity

Edited June 15, 2015 by spikeysquad

[Zagam 1,982]

My 6.2 Warlock Demonology guide will be a hit.  

 

6.2 Update: Blizzard has admitted to overnerfing the spec for 6.2 and justified it by saying they screwed up by making the spec convulted.  Therefore, for their mistakes, we are now reduced to two specs to play instead of being able to play three.  

 

Hey, saves me some time.

 

In all seriousness, this is what 6.2 will be.  Whether our complaints are valid or just some QQ depending on how you look at it, we just have to nut up, shut up, and deal with it like we have for every other patch where our class was slapped in the face with the nerfbat or completely reworked.  We're the most scrutinized class in the game that continues to find ways to excel when we've had the odds stacked against us.  

 

If you can't find ANY fun in Affliction and Destruction right now, focus your attentions not on what spells you'll be using, but what encounters you'll be doing.  Take advantage of Affliction and Destruction's lack of complexity and start thinking of how you can optimize those specs in the encounters in Hellfire Citadel.  Don't think about how much DPS you bring to your raid - think about what jobs you can make easier for your raid.  If you wanted, for example, you could be the allstar of Gorefiend by absorbing the floating mobs during Feast of Souls so that the rest of your raid can do super damage to the boss.  Or maybe you can be the hero of Tyrant by having the highest damage on her time-sensitive adds that she spawns each phase.  

 

Quit thinking about DPS as metrics against other classes and think of your toolkit in what you can do on each encounter to be a boss.  That's how I'll be doing all of my guides in 6.2.  Let's cut the complaints because it's just a reality now.  Let's instead focus on what we're in control of and that's becoming even better raiders in 6.2 than we were in 6.1.

[Stunlocked 8]

Therefore, for their mistakes, we are now reduced to two specs to play instead of being able to play three.

People keep saying things like, but all the theory crafting and simcraft numbers I see show Demo still ahead of Destruction by a substantial amount, and only falling behind Affliction when the tier bonuses come into play.

[Janglybits 1]

People keep saying things like, but all the theory crafting and simcraft numbers I see show Demo still ahead of Destruction by a substantial amount, and only falling behind Affliction when the tier bonuses come into play.

Destro pulled ahead of Demo at the end of last week when they finally fixed the way the class trinket works with Chaos Bolts.

[Zagam 1,982]

People keep saying things like, but all the theory crafting and simcraft numbers I see show Demo still ahead of Destruction by a substantial amount, and only falling behind Affliction when the tier bonuses come into play.

Why would you not keep tier bonuses in mind when considering which spec to play?  Demonology will be "viable" until you get 2 pieces of tier.  That could come REALLY quickly.  As soon as you pick up 2 pieces, Affliction knocks it out of the water.  

 

Destro pulled ahead of Demo at the end of last week when they finally fixed the way the class trinket works with Chaos Bolts.

From what I saw and tested, the two values of Crit Chance and Crit Vulnerability were unique and different.  Crit Chance is what your character has as a percent chance to crit and Crit Vulnerability is how I describe the debuff from the class trinket for Destruction on what it applies to enemies.  Last I saw and tested, these two remained separated making it still not good for Chaos Bolt.  I've not tested since June 10th, though.

[Liquidsteel 279]

They fixed it a couple days ago to make CB scale with the additional crit chance.

[Stunlocked 8]

Why would you not keep tier bonuses in mind when considering which spec to play?  Demonology will be "viable" until you get 2 pieces of tier.  That could come REALLY quickly.  As soon as you pick up 2 pieces, Affliction knocks it out of the water.  

 

 

Of course you should keep tier bonuses in mind when considering which spec to play - the question was more about whether Demonology was really in as bad a shape as everyone is making it out to be.  I don't really know anything about the specific HFC fight mechanics, but Demo still brings greater mobility and AoE to the table when compared to Affliction (and certainly much better mobility than Destruction).  

 

I personally have never been a big fan of Demonology and I'll be happy to drop it.  But I've also seen people over-react to changes as well.  So I'm just trying to dig in more and see if this is one of those cases, or if the sky really is falling this time.  

Edited June 15, 2015 by Stunlocked

[Zagam 1,982]

I personally have never been a big fan of Demonology and I'll be happy to drop it.  But I've also seen people over-react to changes as well.  So I'm just trying to dig in more and see if this is one of those cases, or if the sky really is falling this time.  

Go read the Q&A session by one of the lead game designers when he specifically says they aren't bad at math and admit to overnerfing Demonology because they'd rather you not play the spec.  People are reacting to that - not simcraft or PTR.  

[Infernity 0]

If you can't find ANY fun in Affliction and Destruction right now, focus your attentions not on what spells you'll be using, but what encounters you'll be doing.  Take advantage of Affliction and Destruction's lack of complexity and start thinking of how you can optimize those specs in the encounters in Hellfire Citadel.  Don't think about how much DPS you bring to your raid - think about what jobs you can make easier for your raid.  If you wanted, for example, you could be the allstar of Gorefiend by absorbing the floating mobs during Feast of Souls so that the rest of your raid can do super damage to the boss.  Or maybe you can be the hero of Tyrant by having the highest damage on her time-sensitive adds that she spawns each phase.  

 

Quit thinking about DPS as metrics against other classes and think of your toolkit in what you can do on each encounter to be a boss.  That's how I'll be doing all of my guides in 6.2.  Let's cut the complaints because it's just a reality now.  Let's instead focus on what we're in control of and that's becoming even better raiders in 6.2 than we were in 6.1.

 

10/10, would read again!!  Really loved this answer :)

[spikeysquad 50]

Alright moving forward... With current numbers (though perhaps there's more tuning coming) does anyone actually know what are the best specs? This is assuming T17 gear and no trinky.

 

I'm totally lost at the moment but is Hellfire Assault: CR Destro then Iron Reaver and Hellfire High Council: as SB: H Affliction correct? Is Aff really going GoSac as well? Would be nice to see a list for each boss though I appreciate that things are not clear yet especially in regards to Demo.

[Zagam 1,982]

All three specs are close at 700 ilvl with T17 bonuses.  Choose the spec that best suits what you need to do in your raid.  Cleave = Demo, add burst = Destro, single target = Affliction.  Affliction pulls away with at least 2pc tier.

[Soulzar 42]

http://downloads.simulationcraft.org/Gahddo/

 

I keep close tabs on Gahddo's SIMc folder.

 

I wont link the actual HTML because he has a habit of moving or deleting them a few days later, but in the root he currently has a 6.2 Lock_T17m that will show you where the specs currently stand with T17 gear.

[spikeysquad 50]

Thank you both. Yeah those numbers are actually really close and it will probably be a while until I get T18. That Demo result was with using DB (aka ST but yeah CWx3 spam) so it does seem like I'm gonna roll with Aff as main for ST FTW and then Destro on a few fights. Of course I may switch out to Demo at some point as well. At least though for the first night I will be 2 specs only and ideally also learning the fights with the specs that I plan on playing the most in HFC. Will Demo Cata ever be a thing or is that dead?

Edited June 17, 2015 by spikeysquad

[Soulzar 42]

 Will Demo Cata ever be a thing or is that dead?

 

I was hoping it would be a thing after the Mastery Buffs but it does not sound like it will be the case.  Furty was talking in the Lock IRC the other day and mentioned that Demo performed decently well on some of the add fights since the buffs.  I asked if he has used Cata or just stuck with Demonbolt.  He said after messing around with a bunch of talents he settled on DB.

 

From what I have seen of the fights that include adds(which addmitedly is not a hell of a lot), Cataclysm just doesn't fit as well as it did with Darmac and Thogar.  Take Mannoroth for example.  Big Doom lords with lots of Hp, infernal's with medium hp, and waves of low hp imps.  The imps seem to spawn every 15 seconds or so and are fairly spread out.  A grip, Smoke bomb.. will probably help group them up, but the nature in how they spawn and frequency, diminishes Cataclysms role in padding on them.  Demo is not terrible after the Mastery buffs ST, but that's using a mastery buffed Demonbolt.  Without Demonbolt or Servitude, Demos boss dmg will be donkey shit unless you can hit it with every cataclysm, which you probably wont be.

 

Demo IMO was perfect, which is why it was a 'problem' when tuned to be top spec dmg wise.  Our lvl 100 talents could choose between Burst ST, AoE, and Sustained ST.   I use Cata on 5 fights, DB on 2 fights, and Servitude on 3 fights...IMO perfect design. 

 

Destro-CR doesn't Sacrifice anything from its ST toolkit to gain AoE strengths... and kinda voids the other two talents from their Sustained Single Target and AoE niches.  If Affliction's Single Target dmg wasnt broken op from set bonuses, CR-Destro would be filling the same role Demo did... a spec that can do everything... only with one talent, instead of having to choose accordingly.

[Drkdragon 9]

OK so I have been trying to follow all the changes and I thought I knew where I was going but I still don't quite understand how the mastery buff balanced out the direct spell nerfs in Demo.

 

On Tuesday with 4p T17 should I be going in to HC with my standard Demo/Destro spec? Transitioning to Affl/Destro at 2p T18?

 

-Lews

[Zagam 1,982]

OK so I have been trying to follow all the changes and I thought I knew where I was going but I still don't quite understand how the mastery buff balanced out the direct spell nerfs in Demo.

 

On Tuesday with 4p T17 should I be going in to HC with my standard Demo/Destro spec? Transitioning to Affl/Destro at 2p T18?

 

-Lews

All three specs are moderately close single target DPS at 4p T17.  Affliction got a buff, Destro remained the same, and Demonology got a small nerf.  So Aff > Destro > Demo.  This separation will separate as you acquire tier.  This is for SINGLE TARGET ONLY - and if you took my advice and looked up the fights, you won't see a lot of ST burns, but there are a few fights where single target DPS is VERY important.  I suggest you be open to all 3 specs the first week you see the fights and adapt appropriately.  Why bank on two specs when you can hearth out, change, and be back in the lineup in 5 minutes with a 3rd spec if needed.  With preparation, you can have that planned out while your guild is clearing trash.

[spikeysquad 50]

In theory I agree with you Zagam on being open to 3 specs. In practice if the numbers are close enough then I personally will not be putting my guild through that. Perhaps you guys are better organsied (it feels like we never know which boss we are going to) and open to that as a group. Your guild sounds a lot less "casual" than mine though.

 

For my guild you are going to get the slacking on trash issues and issues getting summoned back as they never get out of combat or have run away from the portal or having to fly or whatever. Personally I want the time to reflect on the upcoming fight not going around the world because Blizz hasn't given us 'trispec" yet. Outside of raids yes I am always respeccing and that is no issue so it's not a case of not being willing to.

Edited June 19, 2015 by spikeysquad