Demon Hunter ruins Demonology

[Gnar 26]

Ok, let's be real for a second guys and let the ranting begin to a slight degree.  I like demonology. I like that I get to turn into a demon during some high buff moments and shit on some mobs.

 

Demon hunters ruin this for me.  Demon hunters use demonic fury, have a meta form that looks sooooooo much better than ours and its customizable. They steal a lot from demo locks The only ammo Blizz has right now to justify this is that "oh they are melee, they don't use pets, and they can tank".  All true and I don't disagree that their playstyle will be different even without rotation released, but I can't get over the fact that total class identity was stolen here.  Its not like the classic Destro as a re skinned fire mage debate. We aren't stealing just a spell school here (which by the way, they use chaos damage....), we are stealing a whole concept of changing into a more powerful form that happens to be identical.

 

Throw your thoughts here guys and make sure Demo gets the love it deserves.  Demon Hunters won't go away but maybe it can lead to improvements to Demo before the release.

[taliesin52 3]

We'll likely lose meta, demo leap, demonic fury.

 

Either they'll make us green fire wielding BM hunters or they'll do something different, whether its a demon possessing skinwalker or maybe we'll summon multiple demons, our own mini legion.  Regardless I'll wait and see before saying anything is ruined. 

[Lockybalboa 618]

I'm waiting for information, since we have none right now there is no point in randomly guessing.

[Shadowlock22 1]

with demonic servitude it take makes fel/wrathguard fall behind doom/terrorguard in dps so makes our spec specific demon less special and if they do demo like BM hunters and make us feed demons command all fight ill be pissed demons have higher intellect then beast so we shouldn't have to feed them commands like BM,

but with all 3 specs able to summon doom/terrorguard making our fel/wrathguard inferior what is there left for demo to excel at?

destro has
1.faster casts
2.more constant area damage
3. far stronger nuke spell (chaos bolt)
4.constant mana regen with out health loss

affliction has
1.more dots
2.a channel spell as a filler
3.abale to force dots to tick more

then demo
1.fel/warthguard (doom/terrorguard is stonger overall)
2.demon form to increase damage and give a second dot ( no meta only corruption as a dot)

so demo only had the added power and dot of demon for and our specific demon even thos as above stated isn't the best to use even in demon spec so whats left to make use nothing more then a watered down combo of affliction an destruction anyone see what im saying

[Greenthy 0]

do we need two posts about this, and even copy pasting of posts between them ?

[Orthios 271]

with demonic servitude it take makes fel/wrathguard fall behind doom/terrorguard in dps so makes our spec specific demon less special and if they do demo like BM hunters and make us feed demons command all fight ill be pissed demons have higher intellect then beast so we shouldn't have to feed them commands like BM,

but with all 3 specs able to summon doom/terrorguard making our fel/wrathguard inferior what is there left for demo to excel at?

destro has

1.faster casts

2.more constant area damage

3. far stronger nuke spell (chaos bolt)

4.constant mana regen with out health loss

affliction has

1.more dots

2.a channel spell as a filler

3.abale to force dots to tick more

then demo

1.fel/warthguard (doom/terrorguard is stonger overall)

2.demon form to increase damage and give a second dot ( no meta only corruption as a dot)

so demo only had the added power and dot of demon for and our specific demon even thos as above stated isn't the best to use even in demon spec so whats left to make use nothing more then a watered down combo of affliction an destruction anyone see what im saying

 

Seriously people, it's been 3 days since the announcement and all we have is a few ideas for upcoming changes.  NOTHING is set in stone.

[Stunlocked 8]

 The only ammo Blizz has right now to justify this is that "oh they are melee, they don't use pets, and they can tank".

 

Well the other ammo is that much of the Demo toolkit was actually part of the Demon Hunter Class in WC3, so technically they had it first.  

 

Like Locky I'm waiting to see what happens.  I am not too upset because I'm not a huge fan of Demo anyway.

 

I think it will depend on what they do with other specs - I would not be shocked to see Demonic Servitude or even Grimoire of Supremacy become Demonology only talents.  I think those talents being available to all dilute the idea of Demonology being the demon summoning spec.  But maybe they will do something completely different - based on what they said about hunters and Disc priests, the door seems wide open. 

[Rakrakcity 0]

Soooo.... In my opinion this is just ridiculous. First of all technically Demonology Warlocks stole Meta from Demon Hunters since it's originally a DH ability, in fact it's their trademark ability and you can't tell me Blizzard created a warlock that used Meta before WC3's Illidan. I would have to say that your entire post about Demon Hunters "stealing" Demo warlock abilities is complete rubish. The whole point of a Demon Hunter is they take on demon powers in order to fight them while a warlock more or less channels/abuses demonic powers so of course lore wise they will have a lot of similarities.

Now besides Meta (which again is orginally a Demon Hunter ability NOT a Demo Lock one) I fail to see how they "steal a lot from demo locks". From the spells/combat clips Blizz has shown so far they have different spells. Again lore wise the two classes share many traits so their may be some overlap somewhere but we don't know yet and likely won't know for months to come.

Addressing your other points....

      - There is no stolen identity, lore wise they are similar and Demon Hunter Meta came before WoW's Demo Lock Meta

      - Of course Demon Hunters will have Chaos Damage spells, they take on demon powers in order to fight demons, do you think they would be using Frost or Nature? Saying that they're stealing a freaking spell school is like saying Oh Frost Death Knights stole Frost from Frost Mages, oh but Frost Mages stole Frost from Shamans.

 

I would also like to add that Blizzard said that they don't like where Demonology Warlocks are right now, and they've been planning to change them for awhile. According to some of the interview points that different websites (including Icy-veins) had with Blizzard (you can see a rundown of them all on mmo-champion) they said they want to make Demo more like BM hunters where they are based around their demon pets that are summoned.

Here are the two points on mmo that Blizzard stated: "Demonology Warlocks will also be getting some bigger changes, focusing more on their demons." and "Demonology Warlocks will be refocused on summoning and controlling demons rather than having Metamorphosis dominate. Other specs will still have access to demons."

 

I understand that you may feel that your favourite class/spec is being taken away but just know that they are rebuilding Demo into something that they feel it should be and .... well technically Demo stole it's Meta from Demon Hunters so... yeah....

[Greenthy 0]

Well lorewise one could say it belongs to warlocks, as it's demonic powers Illidan gets after consuming the skull of guldan, pretty much warlock personification.

[InfernoRFU 125]

I feel like the warlock minority in that I love the idea of demon hunters because I can be in demon form without having to do demo's gameplay mechanics.

[rawr3212 0]

Soooo.... In my opinion this is just ridiculous. First of all technically Demonology Warlocks stole Meta from Demon Hunters since it's originally a DH ability, in fact it's their trademark ability and you can't tell me Blizzard created a warlock that used Meta before WC3's Illidan. I would have to say that your entire post about Demon Hunters "stealing" Demo warlock abilities is complete rubish. The whole point of a Demon Hunter is they take on demon powers in order to fight them while a warlock more or less channels/abuses demonic powers so of course lore wise they will have a lot of similarities.

Now besides Meta (which again is orginally a Demon Hunter ability NOT a Demo Lock one) I fail to see how they "steal a lot from demo locks". From the spells/combat clips Blizz has shown so far they have different spells. Again lore wise the two classes share many traits so their may be some overlap somewhere but we don't know yet and likely won't know for months to come.

Addressing your other points....

      - There is no stolen identity, lore wise they are similar and Demon Hunter Meta came before WoW's Demo Lock Meta

      - Of course Demon Hunters will have Chaos Damage spells, they take on demon powers in order to fight demons, do you think they would be using Frost or Nature? Saying that they're stealing a freaking spell school is like saying Oh Frost Death Knights stole Frost from Frost Mages, oh but Frost Mages stole Frost from Shamans.

 

I would also like to add that Blizzard said that they don't like where Demonology Warlocks are right now, and they've been planning to change them for awhile. According to some of the interview points that different websites (including Icy-veins) had with Blizzard (you can see a rundown of them all on mmo-champion) they said they want to make Demo more like BM hunters where they are based around their demon pets that are summoned.

Here are the two points on mmo that Blizzard stated: "Demonology Warlocks will also be getting some bigger changes, focusing more on their demons." and "Demonology Warlocks will be refocused on summoning and controlling demons rather than having Metamorphosis dominate. Other specs will still have access to demons."

 

I understand that you may feel that your favourite class/spec is being taken away but just know that they are rebuilding Demo into something that they feel it should be and .... well technically Demo stole it's Meta from Demon Hunters so... yeah....

 

Thank god someone said it

[Gnar 26]

What's in lore first and what's in game first is different. I'm use to playing demonology warlock with meta, not reading about demon hunters or playing warcraft. They take away from the current state of the game but with new releases of info it seems like the current state is getting a massive overall beyond the scope of ability pruning.  If the introduction of demon hunters is the excuse to make a better demonology now that maybe doesn't even have meta, then I'm open to seeing how that turns out. So yeah maybe demon hunters won't ruin demo and instead give it the opportunity to be OG and have a more forgiving playstyle to newer players and still have the min/max of higher end players. Excited for more info.

[Puns 3]

etc.

Warlocks have been top tier performance wise for many years with a few short breaks in between minor tuning patches. People always complain when things aren't exactly as they want in this game. If they had added DH back in TBC with meta and all that jazz we wouldn't hear a single complaint about demonology's current state. However meta was part of warlock for over 7 years and ripping it out to give it to another class is just another shitty retcon.

 

Lore wise it makes sense for both warlocks and demon hunters to know how to metamorphose. In fact many abilities/effect overlap between classes because they all take inspiration from each other (or share same roots). For instance Tranquility and Healing Rain are two separate abilities used by two different specs yet share the same concept and arguably are identical in every way except sheer power. In Warcraft 3 Wardens were able to use blink, should we remove it from mages' arsenal because of that? Or Blood Mages having both mage and warlock abilities? Or Dark Rangers having a mix of survival

 

First and foremost Illidan was a mage. He learned how to metamorphose after consuming the energies of the skull of Gul'dan who as we know was a prodigious warlock and all warlocks are former arcanists (and in orcs' case, former shamans) who in pursuit of greater power turned to demons. 

 

It is up to Blizzard to decide how they want to develop each class/spec to feel unique and full of flavour. But to claim that an ability is exclusive to one class because it was so 15 years ago is absurd.

[Soulzar 42]

TBH, what pisses me off more than the presumed loss of Meta is those mouth breathers who talk down players for being upset at it being removed... because of "Well actually Warlocks stole it from DH first.." bullshit

 

*I* didn't design the fucking class, Blizz did.  I have every right to be upset at my favorite part of the class being taken away because they didn't have the foresight to not give it to us in the first place.  

 

/rant

 

Affliction was ruined for me when they removed Shadowbolt...Chaotic Resources ruined Destruction.  Demo was the only spec left I enjoyed.  Really hoping 7.0 brings more than just a Demo revamp

[Sagnuts 1]

Soooo.... In my opinion this is just ridiculous. First of all technically Demonology Warlocks stole Meta from Demon Hunters since it's originally a DH ability, in fact it's their trademark ability and you can't tell me Blizzard created a warlock that used Meta before WC3's Illidan. I would have to say that your entire post about Demon Hunters "stealing" Demo warlock abilities is complete rubish. The whole point of a Demon Hunter is they take on demon powers in order to fight them while a warlock more or less channels/abuses demonic powers so of course lore wise they will have a lot of similarities.

Now besides Meta (which again is orginally a Demon Hunter ability NOT a Demo Lock one) I fail to see how they "steal a lot from demo locks". From the spells/combat clips Blizz has shown so far they have different spells. Again lore wise the two classes share many traits so their may be some overlap somewhere but we don't know yet and likely won't know for months to come.

Addressing your other points....

      - There is no stolen identity, lore wise they are similar and Demon Hunter Meta came before WoW's Demo Lock Meta

      - Of course Demon Hunters will have Chaos Damage spells, they take on demon powers in order to fight demons, do you think they would be using Frost or Nature? Saying that they're stealing a freaking spell school is like saying Oh Frost Death Knights stole Frost from Frost Mages, oh but Frost Mages stole Frost from Shamans.

 

I would also like to add that Blizzard said that they don't like where Demonology Warlocks are right now, and they've been planning to change them for awhile. According to some of the interview points that different websites (including Icy-veins) had with Blizzard (you can see a rundown of them all on mmo-champion) they said they want to make Demo more like BM hunters where they are based around their demon pets that are summoned.

Here are the two points on mmo that Blizzard stated: "Demonology Warlocks will also be getting some bigger changes, focusing more on their demons." and "Demonology Warlocks will be refocused on summoning and controlling demons rather than having Metamorphosis dominate. Other specs will still have access to demons."

 

I understand that you may feel that your favourite class/spec is being taken away but just know that they are rebuilding Demo into something that they feel it should be and .... well technically Demo stole it's Meta from Demon Hunters so... yeah....

Warlocks didn't steal meta from Demon Hunters. Demon Hunters didn't exist in WoW. See, this is the problem with just putting new classes in the game just to put new classes in. You run out of ideas. Illidan changed once. When he consumed the skull of Gul'dan He didn't turn from a regular night elf into his demon form whenever he felt like it. 

 

And all warlock specs summon demons. Demonology isn't special in that regard. Demon Hunters feel rushed, and watered down. And the entire point of Demon Hunters is hunting demons. What happens when there isn't an expansion with demons in it? They don't make sense. I mean, they feel so rushed that they only have 2 specs. Only 2 races can be demon hunters. It's just kind of lame. And for Demo to have to have it's biggest ability taken away just so Blizz can have an excuse for a new class is cheap.

Edited August 10, 2015 by Sagnuts

[Shadowlock22 1]

I don't wana see anything like the kill command or stamped or any exsesives use of the casters command bar to use a demon most demons save imps have somewhat near human intellect so we shouldn't need extra commands to use demons because that would make us to much like beast master hunters

[Drkdragon 9]

I want multiple demons. Like a Necromancer from Diablo. Demon Army!!!

[Orthios 271]

most demons save imps have somewhat near human intellect

First off, punctuation.  Learn how to use it.  Second, got a source on this?

[Lockybalboa 618]

I don't wana see anything like the kill command or stamped or any exsesives use of the casters command bar to use a demon most demons save imps have somewhat near human intellect so we shouldn't need extra commands to use demons because that would make us to much like beast master hunters

 

 

Dude, really, punctuation. Trying to read your babbling is really hard.

 

Unless you have a source then we have to assume you're just making it up.

[Shadowlock22 1]

lets see demons can speak,cast magic,use weapons,

As an example during the green fire quest an observer could read the book and had knowledge of what the book was about, also in hell fire there's a wrathguard as a boss and he has a conversation with grommash and uses a weapon.

Another example there's a Satyr in the starting area of the night elfs who gives you a quest to get stuff for him and he or another satyr uses magic to free himself from shackles

and all demons locks summon besides regular imps and fel hunters speak

Edited August 10, 2015 by Shadowlock22

[Shadowlock22 1]

First off, punctuation.  Learn how to use it.  Second, got a source on this?

well demons open portals and can use magic, use weapons, talk. several demons have been seen with out a master and doing things that take intellect, theres several sayter like the one in the starter area of the night elfs that give u quests and can convers with u Edited August 10, 2015 by Shadowlock22

[Liarparadox 5]

I see where locks are coming from by being pissed off; for me it's a wait and see situation. Hopefully they have some great ideas for demo locks. This far out it's tough for me to get too excited or too upset at any proposed changes.

[Detinator 0]

Theyve already said they made a mistake with meta form and demonology in general, Demon hunters or not they planned to redesign demo warlocks to be a Demon/Minion controling spec and not a demon shapeshift spec. Logically a warlock should be spending more time controling demons instead of being one anyways. not to mention since they plan to make Warlocks more Minion oriented, besides what already makes warlocks unique to demon hunters, you can expect even more Exclusive demons that Demonology will be able to control and wield, like the ones supplied through the tier 18 bonus, they will have their time to shine

Edited August 11, 2015 by Detinator

[Shadowlock22 1]

I can handle loseing meta as long as they don't beat us into the ground and don't give us all those commands like BM hunter (no offence to hunters) I tried that spec and didn't like that feature of it

[Lockybalboa 618]

That is some very weak lore your basing all of that on. First off the ability to speak does not equate to intelligence, Stephen Hawking can't speak and is widely recognized as one of the smartest humans to have lived. Snookie can speak, "sing", "dance" and even reproduce but has shown no signs of intelligence.

 

Second there is already an established hierarchy of Demons, there is no reason to believe that these do not scale not only in combat power but also in intelligence. My Imp could very well be retarded and Mannoroth be brilliant, or maybe I could get one of the smart Imps, but there is no baseline or metric for such a thing.

 

Third why is it assumed that the demons retain all or even any of their native intelligence after being summoned? A demon summoned and bound to our will, how is that connection established?

 

In cases like Enslave Demon I *think* it works more like a Mind Control than anything else, in such case we would be removing whatever native intelligence the demon had and replacing it with a muddled wifi connection of our own will. How strong this connection is and what is able to be passed through would determine the "intelligence" of the now enslaved demon.

 

Although we don't  cast enslave demon on our normal demons, we do forcible control them. The Void Walker and Fel Guard commonly say things like "SEND ME BACK" or "How dare you summon ME!" not statements that would normally be associated with someone that is happy or even willing to be there on their own. The Imp normally sounds happy to be there but being an Imp, I don't think we can trust it.

 

As far as I know, there is nothing in WoW cannon to support the idea that the demons we summon are of any base level intelligence or that we could definitively say that our demons are smarter/dumber than X other being. Even if we had that baseline to work off of there is no edvidence that I could find in a quick Google search showing one way or another if the demons would retain their personal intelligence after being summoned.

 

All of this is beside the point and totally academic though really. The core part of all of this is: Blizzard is CLEARLY not done with class changes yet, not even done developing their theory for class changes. Freaking out about changes that might happen is a little silly for now.

 

One thing I think all WoW players need to start getting use to though is that this is not the WoW of ten years ago, times they are a changing. Keep an open mind.