Holy PvE Opinions

[Pandariah 6]

Hello, everyone!

I'd like to discuss Holy Paladins with you all. I've read over everything Icy-Veins has been kind enough to provide for our assistance, but - I'd like to get everyone's opinions on certain things. I've been told that Paladins are very weak healers right now, and not the first choice for progression raids. The problem with that is that my main is a Paladin. I recently (1-2 months ago, now) came back to WoW after a three year hiatus. Needless to say, my Pali is quite different now than he was in Wrath. So, I'd like to talk to you all about that.

Personally, I've been intrigued by the Holy spec's use of Mastery. It's not beneficial for all classes and specs, frankly, but Holy Paladins is quite fun! Oh - I forgot to link my character.

http://us.battle.net...n/Zokura/simple

Now for me, personally - I am not having an issue with maintaining my mana. So, I do not stack solid spirit like I've been told by many a healer and website. After all, I'm a big fan of the Glyph of Divine Plea. But here's my first question - do any of you other Pali healers feel like your heals are a little weak? My spellpower is 18K, which isn't very high, as I've noticed other healers with 20-25K spellpower. I've thought about gemming for solid intellect, but that seems foolish, considering it's half the stat weight of other gems. Plus, I have had a good experience with Mastery healing.

The odd part is, I'm not having trouble topping the healing charts. And no - I don't mean that as a cocky statement, please don't misunderstand. The most my Paladin has done is 35K hps. My priest can do about 55K hps. (I've even tested this raiding with my same guild group, and faired just as well with the lower hps.) Also, it's important to note, that I am not an Eternal Flame blanketer. I've read about that, and I find it silly and a waste of time. Padding your numbers is not beneficial to the raid! For example, I don't even have recount up while in LFR. I only use it in my 10 man to make sure that myself (and the other healers) are all doing our parts and staying true to our healing assignments.

So, how are you other Pali healers fairing? Gearing differently than Icy-Veins recommends? Exactly the same? I'm open to all opinions and all advice. Thank you so much for taking the time to read this. Take care!

P.S. - Sorry for being longwinded... I really had to stop myself from saying more. :x Lol!

[Krazyito 521]

I have never mained a Holy Paladin, but I like to think of myself as a connoisseur of healing. I've played all healers and help in big part with my raid team and help call CD's etc.

Anyway, Mastery is a very good way to go and I feel paladins are really good healers at the moment. They can excel more at single target tank healing then raid healing, but they are excellent at both.

To give an example, I have a log from our first heroic Garaon kill from yesterday.

http://www.worldoflo.../?s=1629&e=2051

Now when you look at it you might think there are 8 healers, but really the last two are shadow preists that are spamming divine star. Above the two shadow priests is one of our best healers. Geoda (a paladin), but he is on te bottom of the charts. Why? Because he was assigned the sole responsibility of keeping the Pheromone kiter alive. So he did not do too much AoE healing. Then you look at the top of the list. there is Tolzzy, our other paladin healer. He was assigned the responsbilty (along with me) of running with the melee group and healing them as they dps Garalon's legs and when Melee was with the rest of the range group, he would help heal everyone else as well. He ended up on top because of that role. You can also tell by their spell usage that they were performing their roles effectively.and correctly.

Now obviously we have a lot more gear then you, but if you look at their armorys, they are gemming a lot more spirit then you are.

http://us.battle.net...Tolzzy/advanced

http://us.battle.net.../Geoda/advanced

IMO, even if you are good with mana, having more can still help your longevity which will allow you to heal more often or save it for wen you need it.

Ask Mr.Robot also has great pre-sets for holy paladin builds if you care to look at that.

To conclude, I think Holy Paladins are in a great position, as they always have been. They are not the strong AoE healers they were in Dragon Soul, but they still perform really well. IMO, they are the most balanced healers.

Edited January 17, 2013 by krazyito65

[Pandariah 6]

Thank you so much for taking the time to share so much with me! It seems like my rotations aren't an issue, based on your logs. And yeah, I haven't been too lucky in LFR, and our ten man isn't the strongest progression group. But that's alright! So, I definitely see the spirit stacking, and will give it a shot. I only have one more question for you, sir. I noticed Geoda has Sacred Shield, and I'm guessing Trolzzy does as well. Is it detrimental to my healing that I have Eternal Flame? That's an easy switch, but it just feels silly, since our MT (my priority) is a Paladin with Sacred Shield as well. Should I take Sacred Shield and keep it on our OT instead? And truly, I appreciate the help. ^^

- Zokura / Xiongmushi

[Krazyito 521]

For Geoda on that particular fight he chose Sacred Shield since he was doing a ton of single target healing. Though Eternal Flame I would think does just as well when fully powered. Looking through that log, it seemed Tolzzy has Sacred Shield as well and according to this expression he used it primarily on our warrior off tank. the main reason I think he used that spell instead of EF was probably becasue most of his holy power was going to LoD instead of WoG. While as I mentioned before, Geoda probably could have made good use of it since his WoG was more heavy. Though obviously he thought Sacred Shield would do better for him.

EDIT: To say something else, Sacred Shield is more useful on this fight for Tolzzy (AoE Healer) becasue both tanks are taking the same damage at the same time. So there is no tank switch and I'm not sure how Sacred shield acts with a Prot Pallys. To say the least, its pretty good on this fight since both tank tanke the same amount of damage at the same time and one already has sacred shield.

Though I have seen Tolzzy make good use of selfless healer on some fights (I think Heroic Will of the Emperor was one). IMO that tier of talents gives you a lot of choice for play styles and should be taken into consideration each time you want to try to improve your healing. Being able to use all 3 can greatly diversify your healing to make you adaptable to any encounter. To say the least, I know our paladins make use of both EF and Sacred Shield, and the occasional Selfless Healer for specific fights.

Also, on EF blanket, you definitely don't have to blanket, but remember all those HoT ticks from EF will transfer to your beacon target which can help steady tank damage. If you are using EF, you should probabl at least make use of it on people that need the WoG heal and the EF ticks are extra for your beacon.

EDIT again: Last thing to note. Even though spirit stacking may seem silly (I understand, because I played a resto druid from late wrath through early MoP, and I stacked pure intellect and almost reached a 190k passive mana pool in late cata, when the average was 150k~). But when MoP hit, and the intellect/Mana Pool change came into effect, spirit has just become a very necessary stat. With blues, you need to stack spirit. It is just the best way to go. Intellect and more spirit will come with gear. When you have more gear and can maintain a 10k-13k spirit pool and are comfortable, then I would say start making the intellect switch.

Edited January 17, 2013 by krazyito65

[Pandariah 6]

So, I made the switch for all my gems, and have tested quite a bit since your response, and I'm, frankly, blown away at the difference 1500 in combat regen makes. Now I feel silly for not just listening to all the guides in the first place. The real test will be tonight in my ten man. But thanks again for the in-depth help! I really appreciate it. :)

[braddeus 0]

My Holy Pally is sitting at 20k SP and I tend to agree. Crit RNG has a huge effect; my heals feel somewhat weak until a super Holy Prism that rings up 400-500k. Priests just blow the meters away, but it is what it is. WoG in particular feels underscaled.

I feel confident that I can keep up most tanks, where it seems like Mastery really shines (I've reforged to essentially all Mastery). Spirit would for sure extend full out Holy Radiance spam, but if the raid is depending on that things are probably pretty bleak. I'll try a full-spirit setup once I get a Sha gem and Jade Spirit onto a 496 Kri'tak.

Question: Would an all-out spirit setup noticeably increase the value of haste or vice versa?

[Krazyito 521]

More spirit would probably allow you to have more haste. But, the problem is haste only helps for controlled burst healing. Its a playstyle preferece that you have to decide if you rather.

Mastery build's are the most common and usually do very well.

If you read the 3-presets Ask Mr. Robot has, they have a good explanation for each of the secondary stat builds. Basically: Mastery = Throughput/HPS. Haste = HPS. Crit = Throughput.

Remember, Haste will drain your mana more then any of the other stats, and you already have the proc from Holy Shock crits that reduce the cast times. IMO if you are going to not use a mastery build, Crit would be the next best option.

Haste is better if you find you need more burst healing on a progression fight.

Edited January 24, 2013 by Krazyito

[riccaforte 4]

I'm at 500 ilvl and I still stack Spirit and Mastery, it's by far (imo) the best overall healing. I've tried a haste build, and it was definitely better in some fights like Sha of Fear, which needed lots of controlled burst healing. The only healer in our raids that ever bests me is the disc priest, mainly because of Atonement and Spirit Shell, and no one seems to consider overhealing. From what I've experienced, Holy paladins are the most effective healers in raids, even with mastery absorb shields since they last long enough to be helpful.

Just wondering, has anyone tried a crit-heavy build (spirit, crit, mastery, haste)? I feel that it would be helpful in some encounters, but I'm afraid crit would be just too unreliable.

[Pandariah 6]

I do miss crit, terribly. :< I played back in Wrath (missed Cata altogether), and stacked crit all the way. I loved it! Every single spell crit, and it was amazing. Mana? PFFFT. Never ran out. I was an oasis to a raid's desert. Bah! I miss that. xD I felt powerful! Not that I don't feel like I can save people now, just sometimes, not so much as I want to. But, I suppose that's the tradeoff. But to be honest... I'm really enjoying my Druid more right now. :x Uh-oh!

[Krazyito 521]

Druid is a completely different play style. Which has you managing a lot of passive healing with your mana. They are actually getting a sizable buff next path which should bring them more in line with other healers.

If you wish I can elaborate more on druids. It was my first healing class and old main. For now I'm going to sleep. I was up all night leveling an alt.

[penance 0]

This forum has helped alot. i did start with a haste build and saw i was almost always oom after a few min. im going to regem and reforge into spirit and mastery and see how it works. my current spirit is 8312

http://us.battle.net...neally/advanced

Besides the obvious unenchanted shoulders and enchants ( just got them) i have 10% haste with no buffs. i think thats a bit much, but have a look see on her. This is my first forum post and not sure of any forum etiquette. Thanks.

I have started to do a spirit and mastery build now. the difference is significant. i dont hardly oom anymore and my "HPS" is up. due to the higher mastery thus more "absorbs" that count toward the HPS counter.

Edited April 5, 2013 by CodyCarlisle