Zagam going Destruction

[Kaboozey 16]

600 Crit Rating = 1% crit

2083 Int = 1% crit (I believe)

Destruction Mastery Rating for 1% = 200/600 Rating*

Affliction Mastery Rating for 1% = 194 Rating

*(Shamelessly stolen from: http://www.totemspot.../entry.php?b=52 comment):

Live data indicates the warlock Emberstorm bonus to ember-eating spells is 3% per full point of Mastery, which effectively results in needing 200 mastery rating per 1% of bonus at level 90.

The secondary feature of Emberstorm is a buff to Immolate, Fel Flame, Incinerate and Conflagrate equal to 1/3 of the full mastery bonus + 1 percent. To increase this bonus by 1%, 600 mastery rating is required.

If that's correct, that throws a wrench in theorycrafting. It also means for the majority of your spells that Mastery = Crit.

Edited January 28, 2013 by Kaboozey

[Kaboozey 16]

By taking Haste of Crit, I make Destruction more fun to play (fast casts) without relying on the RNG of crits or spending way too much rating to get a noticable increase in Crit. A 0.05 stat weight difference means if you had 10000 Haste rating, you'd gain 16500 DPS via Haste whereas you'd get 17000 DPS if you had 10000 Crit rating for a whopping difference of 500 DPS. When stat weights are this close, you can just play the way you want to, and I like casting stuff fast.

This is probably it. We're approaching it differently. You're looking for more spells cast, while I'm attempting to see how big of numbers I can achieve. BAM! addon for the win? Haha...

[Zagam 1,982]

600 Crit Rating = 1% crit

2083 Int = 1% crit (I believe)

Destruction Mastery Rating for 1% = 200/600 Rating*

Affliction Mastery Rating for 1% = 194 Rating

*(Shamelessly stolen from: http://www.totemspot.../entry.php?b=52 comment):

If that's correct, that throws a wrench in theorycrafting. It also means for the majority of your spells that Mastery = Crit.

This would mean, if I'm interpretting it correctly, that Chaos Bolt and Shadowburn would gain 1% damage at 3x the rate that Immolate, Conflagrate, and Incinerate get via Mastery. If they wanted to buff Destruction to line up with Affliction, they could just make Immolate, Incinerate, and Conflagrate scale like CB and SB...oh shit, there I go making sense again, so we know Blizzard won't use it.

By that same stretch, if they wanted to nerf Affliction, they could do something like require 400 mastery rating per 1% benefit. While I always pray for buffs to other specs to make them equal, I'm afraid we will see Destruction untouched and Affliction nerfed right there. My Warlock sits at about 6500 Mastery rating, or 9500 raid buffed. So right now, as Affliction, I'm getting 9500/300 = 31% additional damage with my DoTs which is about 80% of my total damage (31% additional on top of the base bonus amount that being Affliction gives). By that same virtue, if they did do something like make it 400 mastery required, I'd see a direct nerf of 9500/400 = 24%, or 7% of 80% which is about 5.5%. This, coupled with the Grim of Sac nerf, would hurt quite substantially.

I vote to buff Destruction's Mastery so that some of the spells that gain 33% of the gain of CB and SB gain 100% of it. Perhaps not all of them, as I can see buffing the mastery scaling of Immolate, Conflagrate, and Incinerate would cause Destruction to blow up, so maybe perhaps just Incinerate? For Destruction, 9500 Mastery would mean 47.5% more damage from CB and SB while only 16% more Incinerate, Immo, and Conflag damage. If they were to, say, increase Incinerate's scaling to match CB and SB, then we'd see Destruction's Incinerate do 32% more damage which sounds drastic. Maybe just Immolate? Or Conflagrate? So many ways to fix it...irritating that we can spell out how to fix Warlocks here in this thread yet the people earning their living this way do not operate as quickly or efficiently.

[Bozzley 4]

Thats because at blizzard,they seem to nerf/buff things based on how it performs in pvp,and they seem not to take into account or care how it affects pve.I mean why else cant we as locks summon someone in the same manner that mages port people,we STILL NEED 2 other people for it i mean come on.Also it took blizzard how long to get rid of the dead zone for hunters,and that community was begging for that for years and one of the best hunters in the game as far as reputation goes Brian Wood aka frosthiem ( i mean they even put a epic cloak in game in his honor) does alot of theorycrafting on his site either buffing/nerfing hunters which Zag i'm seeing you kinda taking that mantle for us locks and it seems they never listen to him or that community.

So with all that aside i agree that destro needs help and i think affliction needs to be scaled down but it'll take at least another xpac before that happens because as we all know blizzard knows best........

[Frontright 1]

I'm super excited about this. As I mentioned, destruction warlock was my first character in WoW and I played it straight for like 4 months getting to 90. When I switched to Affliction I was bleak, but I'm really enjoying it now a lot, but somewhere deep inside that fire still burns. I like to think of destruction as the coal miner - a hard S.O.A.B, just clanky and robust as all hell - where Affliction is the concert pianist. Both very fun in their own right. Ganna be watching this spot like a HAWK. Thanx so much dude

[Zagam 1,982]

I am SO freaking confused. I can't play Destruction...it just doesn't perform. I've come home and DPS'd a dummy for 5 minutes using various reforging with Affliction and Destruction single target and it's not even close. Simcraft and my personal testing shows the same thing...Affliction completely owns Destruction.

Just ran a Sim on my Aff model and it prioritized Hit for the first time this tier. I'm unsure if that's because I'm 498 ilvl now or what, but here are my new stat weights for Aff:

Int = 4.22

SP = 3.43

Hit = 2.83

Mastery = 2.57

Haste = 2.27

Crit = 1.76

Stats = 6800 Haste, 5106 Hit rating, 6221 Mastery...DPS = 113596

Real Test = 3 5 minute tests on lvl 90 training dummy WITHOUT full buffs but WITH spell haste

1) 108565

2) 108534

3) 109122

With this SAME set up as Destruction, I sim at 91k and did 3 5 minute tests with the same get up.

1) 87656

2) 88933

3) 88954

It's not even a contest. I'm going to postpone any Destruction testing until number changes come from Blizzard. I just feel like if you're a responsible raider who aims to contribute to your group the best you can, you should be Affliction. I can't see any reason why you would try to be Destruction. Trust me, this breaks my heart as much as it does you guys'...I want to be able to play Destruction, but I can't bring myself to cut my throughput by 15%.

Since I'm already posting here, I'm going to be running another test of my DPS at the 4717 haste threshold to see if we get any gains by taking more Mastery. Y U SO CONFUSING WARLOCKS? Want to see why I ask?

Int = 4.25

SP = 3.46

Mastery = 2.43

Haste = 1.78

Crit = 1.69

Hit = 1.49

I'm retiring from theorycrafting. This is bogus.

[Zagam 1,982]

And I just got a Haste stat weight when I reverted to my normal values of 3.76. I won't be touching Simcraft anymore as values that vary this much make me believe something is bugged.

[Sam 1]

I agree with you Zagam in the fact that Blizz should buff Immolate, and by a lot.. the problem with Destro in PvP or at least the complain from other classes was Chaos Bolt hitting too hard, and the change on Grim of Sacrifice somehow fixed that so on the same sense i think buffing Conflagrate or Incinerate could bring some problems back in PvP balance, so ok need to buff Destro but without increasing the burst, isn't it obious that it needs to be Immolate?, or maybe even adding another dot, we can deal with a more complex rotation, really we can. Destro went from one of the most complex rotations (with lots of buffs, debuffs, CD's, and different spells) to been way too easy. At least in cata there was pride in puting competitive DPS while executing a much more complex rotation than most classes (well single target cause AOE was terrible)..

So i guess that sadly i'll have to keep my destro Spec out of raids and use it only for questing and PvP, where I have to say it's very fun and effective.

haha just letting some of my frustrations out i guess many other Destro Locks feel the same way

[Bozzley 4]

Again pvp comes into play in a pve situation to ruin a spec,because of all the QQQing in arenas and bg's ,as i always say if u dont like what a class can do to you then hey either reroll or dont pvp,but i shouldnt be penalized in a pve enviroment because of what it can do in a pvp eviroment.

i really just wish blizzard would make a pvp spec that has zero bearing on pve so when it gets buffed/nerfed it wont affect a class when it's raiding,questing ect...

[Chinkon 0]

Destruction Lock is easy to play, but still needs some skill to master. I am not a pro or lite player, currently 3/16H. The stats priority is still mastery > crit >haste. Haste is pretty weak, but u still need some haste to have a relatively balanced mana regen, now I am sitting aroung 4%-5% haste. Crit is not as good as it sounds to be. Currently I am using relic of Yulon and blossom of pure snow( valor trinket, increase ur crit by about 3300 for 15 s, 1min cd). 3300 crit is about 5% crit, sometimes during the trinket proc, my incinerate didn't crit at all( which imo, I didnt benefit from the proc crit at all). Crit is really a stat requires some luck... Chaos bolt always crit, but 5% critical gives chaos bolt no notable increase at all. You need ton of Critical strike rating and haste rating to increase crit haste by 1%, while you dont need much mastery rating to increase mastery by 1%. 1% mastery increase my damage by 0.5%( depends on fights, the percentage of chaos bolt and incinearate damage in ur dps), while you only need 600 mastery rating to reach 1% mastery.Mastery is the stat with least invest but most output imo.

My thought for destruction is to maximize chaos bolt casting during Dark soul, minimize chaos bolt casting (not benefited from trinket proc) when dark soul is not up, immolate lined up with trinket proc( though not a big deal to destruction).Plus, essence of terror is better than light of cosmos, the proc of light of cosmos is really not very amazing due to the fact we only have 1 dots( chaos bolt dots....).

In pure single target training dummy fight, destruction is among the middle-pack, and due to the fact that ur ember fades slowly when out of combat, in most fight, destruction has relatively low opener dps. . The strength for destruction is short time bursting and sustained dps in two target fight( which aff can do better). I haven't been in active raiding guild until the release of 5.1. when my item lvl was 488, wielding LFR sha touched sword and LFR 4 set bonus, I pulled 166k on elegon( we got 10 stacks, 10 men) and 100k on will of emperor. Now I got some upgrade and the 496 sha touched staff, ilvl 489, 4 set bonus, pull like 71k on dummy with self buff only no flask , potion, big dude. I am not here to show dps , just list as some references.

Btw, I dont feel happy in my guild. In officers's mind, destruction is broken and the only viable lock dps spec is aff. I just dont like the ugly malefic grasp of aff, it reminds me the spriest in cata( 3 dots, mind flay= malefic grasp, haunt = 3 orbs mind blast ).

Sorry for my bad English.

[Kellhound99 0]

your calculations don't show the execute phase like sim'ing does. I wont even pretend that I understand Simcraft... So I ask, could it the differences you are seeing are solely due to the 5 minute test parses that do not include damage under 20%? That both Demonology and Destruction start to catch up during that phase? Simcraft has Doom leading the "Damage done per execute" phase.

Is it possible that DS: Demo and Destro outpaces performance of DS: Aff during the execute phase as well? Its three different spells.

Something on simcraft I never understood was how low it rated drain-soul as opposed to other loc skills while in that phase.

It may mean that the damage done by Drain Soul in minimal compared to the dots its stacking damage on i guess. Hmm dunno...

[Kaboozey 16]

Perhaps it would be advantageous to get someone like Zumzum in this thread. He's a regular poster over on mmo-c who appears to have mastered Destruction.

His mmo-c profile containing some vids:

http://www.mmo-champion.com/members/683218-Zumzumzum

His armory:

http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/character/Illidan/Z%C3%BBmzum/advanced

His guilds worldoflogs (if you can decipher enough French):

http://worldoflogs.com/guilds/3210/

I'm at work, so I can't really l can't really go through a lot of his stuff right now.

[Zagam 1,982]

your calculations don't show the execute phase like sim'ing does. I wont even pretend that I understand Simcraft... So I ask, could it the differences you are seeing are solely due to the 5 minute test parses that do not include damage under 20%? That both Demonology and Destruction start to catch up during that phase? Simcraft has Doom leading the "Damage done per execute" phase.

Is it possible that DS: Demo and Destro outpaces performance of DS: Aff during the execute phase as well? Its three different spells.

Something on simcraft I never understood was how low it rated drain-soul as opposed to other loc skills while in that phase.

It may mean that the damage done by Drain Soul in minimal compared to the dots its stacking damage on i guess. Hmm dunno...

Affliction's execute phase is the strongest of all three specs. Wouldn't matter if I had tested to an execute phase. Drain Soul hits really hard. The big reason that Simcraft can't model Affliction DPS well is because it doesn't have a way to monitor DoT spell power and update a DoT if it's good. The Simcraft model looks like this:

actions=curse_of_the_elements,if=debuff.magic_vulnerability.down

actions+=/jade_serpent_potion,if=buff.bloodlust.react|target.health.pct<=20

actions+=/dark_soul

actions+=/service_pet,if=talent.grimoire_of_service.enabled

actions+=/grimoire_of_sacrifice,if=talent.grimoire_of_sacrifice.enabled

actions+=/summon_pet,if=talent.grimoire_of_sacrifice.enabled&buff.grimoire_of_sacrifice.down

actions+=/run_action_list,name=aoe,if=active_enemies>3

actions+=/summon_doomguard

actions+=/soul_swap,if=buff.soulburn.up

actions+=/haunt,if=!in_flight_to_target&remains<tick_time+travel_time+cast_time&shard_react&miss_react

actions+=/soul_swap,cycle_targets=1,if=active_enemies>1&time<10&glyph.soul_swap.enabled

actions+=/haunt,cycle_targets=1,if=!in_flight_to_target&remains<tick_time+travel_time+cast_time&soul_shard>1&miss_react

actions+=/soulburn,line_cd=20,if=buff.dark_soul.up&shard_react

actions+=/soulburn,if=(dot.unstable_affliction.ticks_remain<action.unstable_affliction.add_ticks%2|dot.corruption.ticks_remain<action.corruption.add_ticks%2|dot.agony.ticks_remain<action.agony.add_ticks%2)&target.health.pct<=20&shard_react

actions+=/agony,cycle_targets=1,if=ticks_remain<add_ticks%2&target.time_to_die>=8&miss_react

(This says to reapply Agony when you get the full benefit of Pandemic)

actions+=/corruption,cycle_targets=1,if=ticks_remain<add_ticks%2&target.time_to_die>=6&miss_react

(This says to reapply Corruption when you get the full benefit of Pandemic)

actions+=/unstable_affliction,cycle_targets=1,if=ticks_remain<add_ticks%2+1&target.time_to_die>=5&miss_react

(This says to reapply UA when you get the full benefit of Pandemic)

actions+=/drain_soul,interrupt=1,chain=1,if=target.health.pct<=20

actions+=/life_tap,if=mana.pct<35

actions+=/malefic_grasp,chain=1

actions+=/life_tap,moving=1,if=mana.pct<80&mana.pct<target.health.pct

(This shouldn't be there with the change to Kil'Jaeden's Cunning but it makes no DPS difference)

actions+=/fel_flame,moving=1

actions+=/life_tap

You can see from my notes above how there is nothing in Simcraft meant to model a change in the spell power of DoTs. It simply wants you to keep them up full time irrespective of the power of your DoTs. I don't really my supercharged Agony until it has 1 second left because each tick I overwrite after buffs have worn off is a 54% loss of damage to my empowered Agony. Simcraft can't model this, and that's why players who are competent in their playstyle will see their DPS outperform their Simcraft model's DPS expectation. THIS, and this alone is why Affliction is the best DPS spec in the game regardless of what you hear elsewhere. This also leads into your original point about execution. With knowledge of this mechanic, it's not even capable of reaching debate to see how the other two specs hit execute phase.

Perhaps it would be advantageous to get someone like Zumzum in this thread. He's a regular poster over on mmo-c who appears to have mastered Destruction.

His mmo-c profile containing some vids:

http://www.mmo-champ...83218-Zumzumzum

His armory:

http://eu.battle.net...Zûmzum/advanced

His guilds worldoflogs (if you can decipher enough French):

http://worldoflogs.com/guilds/3210/

I'm at work, so I can't really l can't really go through a lot of his stuff right now.

Doing good damage as Destruction is cool and all. Anyone can manage to up your DPS with Destruction and gear and practice and knowledge of mechanics. However, the part that is missing here is how much more he could be doing as Affliction. That point just isn't arguable. Anyone who is doing really well as Destruction could be doing even better as Affliction. Either they don't like the playstyle, would rather raid without all the micromanagement, or just don't want to deal with it later when it's not as good. The DPS gain potential is there and there is just no way around it.

[Kaboozey 16]

Doing good damage as Destruction is cool and all. Anyone can manage to up your DPS with Destruction and gear and practice and knowledge of mechanics. However, the part that is missing here is how much more he could be doing as Affliction. That point just isn't arguable. Anyone who is doing really well as Destruction could be doing even better as Affliction. Either they don't like the playstyle, would rather raid without all the micromanagement, or just don't want to deal with it later when it's not as good. The DPS gain potential is there and there is just no way around it.

With that attitude toward the spec, there's no real point in the thread. Affliction being a higher potential dps isn't exactly old news. The whole idea when you first presented was you wanted to have fun and try something different. Upon taking a crack at it, threw up your arms in disgust and said "Eff this!". I was suggesting something to benefit your own thread about doing something different with the class, and probably learn something from a guy that knows the spec in-and-out. May as well delete the entire thead - cause clearly Zagam ain't going Destruction.

[Zagam 1,982]

I'm going to be playing Destro tonight because it'll be content where my maximum DPS won't be required (just H MSV). I'm just fully prepared to see numbers not near what I can do as Demo. I think I said earlier in the thread that today (Tuesday) would be the first time I could try it. I'm not faltering from my plans, just pointing out the very obvious.

I don't want to do the one thing I hope to avoid: give people who are determined to play Destruction fuel to stay Destruction and hold back their groups. Forcing yourself to play a spec is your decision, but I don't want to entertain any 'how do I get better as Destruction' questions when it'd be like 'how do I fix my beat up, broken car instead of driving my new one around?' I'm dipping into Destruction as an exploration with confidence that my experience will be fun, yet underperforming. I didn't want to give the vibe that Destruction is competitive because it's not.

[Zagam 1,982]

I'm in, logs are on.

[Zagam 1,982]

shit, maybe I should have streamed. Did 157k to Stone Guard because stacking Chaos Bolts on two targets is awesome. I forgot my Grim of Sac buff until Feng hit 55%, so my DPS looks poopy there =(

[Zagam 1,982]

http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/877719xws0odjshy/sum/damageDone/?s=1307&e=1663

Destro log for 4/6H MSV. Ignore the wipes, people were playing AWFUL tonight. Also had some bad internet issues causing some delays. Notes:

Stone Guard: Destro is awesome for two targets. Stack embers, use Rain of Fire on the two dogs, use Havoc on one dog, Chaos Bolt the other...do this on cooldown. Never had mana issues spamming Incinerate. Can armory me, not changing my stats for reference on how I'm reforged (full Mastery).

Feng: meh. Standard single target. I'll have to dig up an Affliction parse, but Destro felt fine. Parse here looks bad because I didn't summon a pet out until Feng was at 55%. Note to self: when you change a talent, Grim of Sacrifice disables.

Gara'jal: Would NOT recommend Destruction. Multi-dotting as Destro in the Shadow Realm left something to be desired. Fire and Brimstone: Immolate, Rain of Fire, and Bane + Chaos Bolt did some work, but it sure was more challenging than Affliction. However, with Shadowburn, you can build 4 Embers quick, come out with a buff, pop Dark Soul, and land 4 800k Chaos Bolts. Pretty nice, but you leave a lot to be desired by not having DoTs on Gara'jal as you go down to the Shadow Realm.

Elegon: Affliction potential is MUCH higher and much easier to get to. Rain of Fire is quite epic as Destro for inter-phases, but nothing to write home about. Seeing 1M Chaos Bolts is fun, but hardly worth it. Might become easier with repetition.

Will of Emps: This is a multi-DoT fight. Don't be Destro. I did it and talked about how we will be doing Heroic Blade Lord and Wind Lord. Didn't do much of anything else haha

Eat your hearts out, take the logs for what they are worth.

[Kaboozey 16]

Those are pretty damn good numbers for a first time parsing with a new spec. Fights like Stone Guard make it look OP. Ignoring Feng... the spikes on Gara'jal are pretty massive. No, you won't have DoTs ticking when you go spirit realm, but that goes with the spec. Pretty sure you make up for it when you come out after using multiple Shadowburns. I think Elegon could be pretty solid with Destro. You could use Havoc more than you did on sparks/celestial protectors. Same thing for Will - I think you'd almost want to use it on CD, even if you don't use a single Chaos Bolt. Unless you generated enough Embers quickly enough with the amount of haste you're carrying? Dark Soul would then end up being used with every third Havoc (with 4-Piece bonus).

I really haven't been playing much WoW recently. Just logging in, doing farmville for raiding mats, and logging. The rest of my time has been in the Path of Exile. You obviously love theorycrafting. If you love ARPG's as well, I HIGHLY suggest it. The passive skill "web" is a theorycrafters dream (or nightmare?). So so so much better than D3 (in my opinion).

[Zagam 1,982]

Yeah, I think Warlocks sim about 2k within each other on two target fights. Destro has Havoc, Demo can apply Doom to both, and Affliction rolls DoTs. The spikes on Gara'jal are KB sniping with Shadowburn followed up with DS + 4 Chaos Bolts. Looks impressive, but felt lackluster. On Elegon, I chose NOT to do the Havoc CBs to the Celestial Protectors because we were DPSing them down too fast. If you look, you can see I still did over 24% of the overall damage to the sparks by using my embers on Fire and Brimstone: Immolate to get Immo on all of the charges as well as a Mannoroth's Fury Rain of Fire on all the sparks on my side.

Destro can be played well...Brusalk is now 16/16H (best Destro Warlock who talks on forums, mostly MMO-Champ) and he said that he did Destro for all of their first kills except for Will of the Emp and Protectors (massively multi-target fights). It's not like Arms Warriors where you simply can't play like that, so Warlocks can play any spec they like...but man is Affliction sweet. I even dumped Haste and went full Mastery and saw an increase in my single target damage. My numbers were massive last night. I'll stay on top of things as Warlock notes become more accessible. So far, the only change made is they gave our silence back that they originally took away which has no bearing on PvE at all.

[Kaboozey 16]

Okay. That makes sense for Elegon - the Sparks bit is pretty funny. I'm curious how you handle heroic sparks as Affliction. We dedicate a dps to each one, and if I end up not having a soul shard, I find myself screwed on taking mine down.

[Zagam 1,982]

As Affliction, make sure you Drain Soul the last Protector to have 4 Shards. Reset your stacks while applying Agony, Corruption, and UA to Elegon. Time a Soulburn: Seed of Corruption to land on him as his Draw Power spell is finished so that your Seed lands just before the Charges form so that the seed blows up as the Charges appear...bam, Corruption on 7 targets (Elegon + 6 Charges). This uses one Soul Shard. I then Soulburn: Soul Swap my dedicated charge and light it up with MG. This leaves me with 2 shards and whatever Nightfall procs I get. Since Corruption ticks every 1.8 seconds for me and I have it on 7 targets, I have 5% chance for each of my 7 Corruptions to generate a Shard every 1.8 seconds for about 5.4 seconds. Statistically speaking, this gives you about an 85% chance to get AT LEAST 1 shard. If I've generated enough shards to get back to 3 or 4, then I reset my stacks, reapply Agony and UA and time my Soulburn: SoC to land again. If I generate no Shards, I reapply Agony only and do a Drain Soul cast to generate a Shard. If you have at least 2 shards, you can do enough to put Corr on all the Charges while having a SB:SS for yours. If you do 5 or 6 waves, you'll want Haunt for those Charges, so you'll have to monitor your situation as things speed up dramatically there. I'm always top damage on these guys by a mile and a half. Let me show you Aff vs Destro for just that part of the fight:

Destro: http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/877719xws0odjshy/analyze/dd/source/?s=8846&e=9310&target=131

(I forgot to log our Heroic Elegon kills when I was Affliction, so here's a normal parse, same idea)

Affliction: http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/c82he1nf0au6lq29/analyze/dd/source/?s=6054&e=6499&target=207

For Destro, I did 11M while 2nd place did 7M. For Aff, I did 11M while 2nd place did 4M (Normal requires less damage). I'll log an Affliction parse on Tuesday and will likely push 13 or 14M then.