Legion Class Preview Discussion

[Carrn 284]

For those of you who haven't read it already:

 

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/blog/19955666/legion-class-preview-series-rogue-11-12-2015

 

Let's talk! What do you like? What don't you like?

 

I think the changes for Sin and Combat / Outlaw are absolutely fantastic, but I'm sort of on the fence about Sub.

 

The whole gun thing looks too cool, and might finally add some dynamic elements to playing Combat. Sin becoming a more fast-paced spec is really appealing too, since that was my main complaint about it before (other than it just straight up not being very good)

 

What about ya'll?

[lipsinch 46]

I think the new addition to Sub makes it a very mobile and unpredictable spec. We'll be hopping in and out of stealth frequently, and this is a quite good flavor for me, since it's a spec that relies on stealth to do it's thing. We haven't seen the other skills yet, if they took off something else or added/modified other things, so we can't be sure how it'll be our place in PvP (currently as a stunbot or a more damage-oriented role) yet. And shadow magic... Well, not bad. But I preferred the Ninja-like concept. =P

 

Com- Er, Outlaw seems quite way more appealing now, especially for those who digged the Pirate/Ninja thing (which Rogue fits in both). I just don't get much the pistol thing when it uses two swords. Where this pistol comes from? Magic? Perhaps if they added back the capacity of Rogues having a ranged weapon, filled in the slot to make them work just like Enh Shamans (Melee/Ranged simultaneously) and add more Pistol skills would make the flavor even stronger than it is currently. Don't get me wrong, I'm really pleased to see it, but I think it had more space for improvement there (just like Survival treatment).

 

Mut, well... For the improvement on Seal Fate and Garrote being able to use out of stealth and having a stronger damage (given my understanding for the wording is correct), there's nothing new there. It may speed up the gameplay yes, but for me still slow and simple. Should they add some complexity to it, would make more interesting. But let's wait to see it out in entirety.

[Spaghettii 0]

I think not having Speed Burst kills rogue.

[Giggles 0]

19 hours ago, Spaghettii said:

I think not having Speed Burst kills rogue.

Not necessarily. The new exsang on assasin is a pretty impressive spell. My bleeds have easily topped most of the weekend event runs. Granted I haven't had a chance to try things out in current content just yet. However, I have seen enough thus far to make me a believer.

[Carrn 284]

On 7/20/2016 at 7:24 PM, Spaghettii said:

I think not having Speed Burst kills rogue.

You mean Burst of Speed?

I'm going to go out on a limb and disagree - I think it was a skill that I rarely ever used, that was effectively the exact same thing as Sprint.

Why do you think it was necessary?

[Iridar 80]

Erhmagerd. Outlaw is the best thing ever. I just can't relay how much it's exactly what I ever wanted. It took me exactly ten minutes to attach some custom gun sounds, and now I can headshot mobz in an epic manner.

 

[Carrn 284]

5 hours ago, Iridar said:

Erhmagerd. Outlaw is the best thing ever. I just can't relay how much it's exactly what I ever wanted. It took me exactly ten minutes to attach some custom gun sounds, and now I can headshot mobz in an epic manner.

 

Rofl. It actually looks so amazing.

I'm honestly a little saddened by the gameplay though... It doesn't feel very good to me, and I really don't like so much RNG particularly from a progression standpoint

[Iridar 80]

2 hours ago, Carrn said:

Rofl. It actually looks so amazing.

I'm honestly a little saddened by the gameplay though... It doesn't feel very good to me, and I really don't like so much RNG particularly from a progression standpoint

I haven't actually raided yet, but from whatever PVE I've done, the rotation does feel a bit clunky at times. I think it's going to change a lot when Legion launches, we got so much stuff packed into artifact weapons. 

Also, let's face it, Blade Flurry isn't an interesting way of doing AOE damage, and I keep forgetting to toggle it on and off, despite having an addon to remind me. I think that's the only problematic remnant of the old days.

Edited July 24, 2016 by Iridar

[Carrn 284]

6 hours ago, Iridar said:

I haven't actually raided yet, but from whatever PVE I've done, the rotation does feel a bit clunky at times. I think it's going to change a lot when Legion launches, we got so much stuff packed into artifact weapons. 

Honestly if anything the Dreadblades kind of make it clunkier, but they're cool I suppose

The bigger problem for me is always trying to roll for True Bearing

[Iridar 80]

1 hour ago, Carrn said:

Honestly if anything the Dreadblades kind of make it clunkier, but they're cool I suppose

The bigger problem for me is always trying to roll for True Bearing

I meant that right now we don't know everything, who knows how it'll work once we actually get to lvl 110. We might get a new talent, new abilites / passives (like dreanor enhancements), maybe some piece of class-specific equipment or a set bonus. Hopefully at least something that'll smoothen out the rotation.

Edited July 24, 2016 by Iridar

[lipsinch 46]

19 hours ago, Carrn said:

You mean Burst of Speed?

I'm going to go out on a limb and disagree - I think it was a skill that I rarely ever used, that was effectively the exact same thing as Sprint.

Why do you think it was necessary?

Doing old content without it seems slow as hell. And since I spend my days doing those... Well, you get it.

[Kozzie 1]

Actually, pretty disappointed in the loss of Slice-n-Dice as the level 100 talent versus the others when it comes to DPS.  How much more rogue can you get by using SND.  The higher dps versus SND is Marked for Death or Death from Above - great, I get to mash a button and get 5 combo points, haven't done that before or some unbelievable talent called Death from Above, what are we jumping so high as rogues we come smashing down - this is an utter debacle of a class change and then you throw in the Roll of the Bones and rely on Blizzard's RNG for 6 different talents - so, I get to sit there in a fight and go, umm, "what did I get" - uh, wow, looky there I got that and not the talent that I need or want.  Finally, lets complete the utter destruction of these specs by taking poisons away which I can't even understand how someone said, um, yeah, lets take applying poisons away because we can give them a concealed gun to pull out in a non-secretive way and let them shoot the boss. Oh, and lets give them Grappling Hook because lord knows they shouldn't be able to use Burst of Speed in stealth or Shadow Step.  Legion just "Marked for Death" the rogue class.  Outlaw is a complete and epic fail to work a class into a more realistic playing scenario.

[Carrn 284]

7 hours ago, Iridar said:

I meant that right now we don't know everything, who knows how it'll work once we actually get to lvl 110. We might get a new talent, new abilites / passives (like dreanor enhancements), maybe some piece of class-specific equipment or a set bonus. Hopefully at least something that'll smoothen out the rotation.

I'd agree with you, except we DO know that we don't get that since we're already levelling and playing at 110 on Beta lol

 

[Carrn 284]

6 minutes ago, Kozzie said:

Actually, pretty disappointed in the loss of Slice-n-Dice as the level 100 talent versus the others when it comes to DPS.  How much more rogue can you get by using SND.  The higher dps versus SND is Marked for Death or Death from Above - great, I get to mash a button and get 5 combo points, haven't done that before or some unbelievable talent called Death from Above, what are we jumping so high as rogues we come smashing down - this is an utter debacle of a class change and then you throw in the Roll of the Bones and rely on Blizzard's RNG for 6 different talents - so, I get to sit there in a fight and go, umm, "what did I get" - uh, wow, looky there I got that and not the talent that I need or want.  Finally, lets complete the utter destruction of these specs by taking poisons away which I can't even understand how someone said, um, yeah, lets take applying poisons away because we can give them a concealed gun to pull out in a non-secretive way and let them shoot the boss. Oh, and lets give them Grappling Hook because lord knows they shouldn't be able to use Burst of Speed in stealth or Shadow Step.  Legion just "Marked for Death" the rogue class.  Outlaw is a complete and epic fail to work a class into a more realistic playing scenario.

I don't think this is a fair assessment at all.

SnD is an option for people who don't want to worry about playing around with RNG and would like to simplify their gameplay. There are many players who will make use of this. You're correct that the other options are higher DPS, but they both alter the rotation and gameplay.

Correct use of MfD is fairly complicated in the middle of an encounter - while it might sound simple enough, being aware of what adds will die when so you can get the most benefit out of extra combo points and not waste any is pretty tough when you're also avoiding raid mechanics AND trying to keep up with your regular rotation, tracking which RtB buff you have etc. DfA is actually one of the most well thought out skills I've seen Blizzard put into the game. It changes the rotation, gives an extra layer of complexity in terms of cooldowns to use, and can be used to ENORMOUS benefit in certain situations to completely avoid damage since as you jump up you're temporarily immune

You can't tell me that applying Instant Poison as a Combat Rogue added anything at all. The poison drip effect hasn't been a thing forever, so it's literally a small amount of extra passive damage - less exciting than more auto attacks, since at least those have animations.

While you might not enjoy Grappling Hook, that doesn't mean that it's bad. Burst of Speed is the exact same skill as Sprint, and so doesn't need to be in the game. Additionally, it's a waste of energy (and therefore a DPS loss) and doesn't give you any more uptime on the boss than what SStep gives you. Shadowstep doesn't fit the Outlaw Rogue thematically, and if you think about it it actually has less utility than SStep because it doesn't require a target

Outlaw is a wickedly cool theme that looks visually awesome and fills a niche that a ton of people are really excited about. It fixed one of the single most boring specs in the game and made it interesting by removing Bandit's Guile and a metric fuckton of SS-spam-induced carpal tunnel

 

[Kozzie 1]

1 hour ago, Carrn said:

You can't tell me that applying Instant Poison as a Combat Rogue added anything at all. The poison drip effect hasn't been a thing forever, so it's literally a small amount of extra passive damage - less exciting than more auto attacks, since at least those have animations.

The entire goal of the class spec reworks is to separate the specs to make it far more unique in each of the specs.  Pulling out a concealed gun when there was nothing to do for it - is just saying, here, here is your gun.  Poisons are a mysterious way any rogue can pull off the application of deadly toxins.  That by far, is much more "rogueness" then - hey, new patch/xpac - here, here is your gun.  I mean how many weapons can be used to apply poisons. Daggers/Knives/Arrows/Darts - WAY more options then - here you go, here is a pistol.

Sorry, but this was by far a very fair assessment.  As I said, Legion "Marked for Death" rogues specs, period.  Sub is an absolute disaster.  The only rogue spec that is a rogue spec is Assassination and it will fail against the other dps specs.  So, you want to be a rogue with "rogue" like play, you just got pigeon holed into Assassination.  Forgot to add before posting that, SND/Poisons has been around since Vanilla, and out of nowhere someone says, well, Combat is no longer viable, says, "your now an Outlaw" with zero Lore, so, gone are your unique poisons and the one spell/talent now SND that you've come to know as a rogue, that is gone after 10 years, and here, here is a pistol, and oh, btw, you don't get to actually do anything with the pistol, its just there: assessment - 10 years of using Poisons/SND in the progression of the spec vs. here is your pistol now hand over that 10 years of spec progression.  You didn't like the assessment, because it was fair, Carrn. 

Edited July 25, 2016 by Kozzie

[Carrn 284]

You're entitled to your opinion.

Combat has never been a "sneaky" Rogue spec. Since Vanilla it has been more of a swordsman / duelist spec, to the point that at many times during WoW's history you didn't even need to stealth. "Outlaw" is a synonym for "Rogue", and both of those terms are used to describe pirates throughout many stories

What about Sub do you think is a disaster? They made it into a spec that kills with shadows from the shadows. That's pretty subtle and sneaky, and Rogues have had shadow based skills (like Shadowstep) for a decade

I would go so far as to say that Assassination is the LEAST appropriate for its description and fantasy - there is very little poison damage, and if you think about it a sneaky assassin is not going to leave a pooling trail of blood behind them as they leave

Again, you're entitled to your opinion, I just don't think that saying they've killed all the specs is a very fair assessment when they each have good and bad things about them

[Iridar 80]

17 hours ago, Carrn said:

I'd agree with you, except we DO know that we don't get that since we're already levelling and playing at 110 on Beta lol

 

Ah. My bad, I'm a filthy casual. So on lvl 110, the rotation is just as RNG-reliant and revolves around rolling for True Bearing?

[Carrn 284]

11 hours ago, Iridar said:

Ah. My bad, I'm a filthy casual. So on lvl 110, the rotation is just as RNG-reliant and revolves around rolling for True Bearing?

Correct. It's more about fishing for the right buff at the right time, and knowing when you can afford to just let another one sit

[lipsinch 46]

10 hours ago, Carrn said:

Correct. It's more about fishing for the right buff at the right time, and knowing when you can afford to just let another one sit

The bait is a bit costy, tho... Talking from a Rogue fisherman PoV. 8D

[gonlaz 6]

been playing sin since 2009, hate all the bleeds, miss the poisons, that is to say the damage being about poison based. That is really all I can say about it, I still enjoy rouge'ing though :)

Edited July 31, 2016 by gonlaz