Invoker Thorns Crusader

[Damien 1,514]

48 minutes ago, AMCope said:

I tried it out last night but I wanted to keep it safe since I'm was trying this out on hardcore. My safety zone topped out at GR72 for it but it still works well until I can get all the pieces for LoN.

We're planning of having a sort of widget on the front page that ranks our builds by attainable GR level range, to make it easier to pick the right ones. It's something I'll work on for the next season update :)

[Guest seacow]

On 5/22/2016 at 1:23 AM, Damien said:

Everyone on the ladder is using Bombardment with LoN. That's not to say that Thorns is not viable, but it's not as good as Bombardment I guess.

I play both in non seasonal. I have slightly more optimized gear for Invoker, thanks mostly to Caldessan. I cleared an 81 with Invoker at around 960 paragon, but I missed 82 by 2 to 3 minutes about 3 times in a row. I switched to LoN Bombardment and cleared 82 no problem, and I feel I could easily go up to 85 with current gear/paragon.

Invoker is good at killing yellows--Invoker loves yellows--but you need density to kill them. You kill trash much slower and are far less mobile than LoNBard. Invoker is definitely "viable" (minus pushing top of the leaderboard, where you'll probably be as limited by paragon/gem disparity as build) and is very consistent, but DPS issues crop up sooner than LoN, and the lack of relative mobility means more time spent seeking out and clearing density.

[Sebastionleo 1]

So I'm playing on PS4. Saw the build that is up here says to use Hack, and a lot of people are saying to use Pigsticker instead. Do we have an updated yes/no on Hack vs. Pigsticker? I still haven't gotten a hack except for the level 61 one i broke down and put into my cube from my barbarian levelling, and I rolled a str/vit/LOH/CDR pigsticker, rerolled its damage range into socket for now until I decide if I'm keeping it, then I'll reroll it into IAS and add a socket to it.

Another question about this, would it be worth it for continuous DPS to keep Hack in the cube, Akarat's Awakening for shield and drop the double provoke thorns damage from Spiker? As of right now I still don't have an Awakening so I'm using Spiker for shield, Pigsticker for weap with Hack in the cube.

 

[Deadset 108]

16 hours ago, Sebastionleo said:

Another question about this, would it be worth it for continuous DPS to keep Hack in the cube, Akarat's Awakening for shield and drop the double provoke thorns damage from Spiker? As of right now I still don't have an Awakening so I'm using Spiker for shield, Pigsticker for weap with Hack in the cube.

Heya, while I'd personally stick to Hack as part of the build, your suggestion is very viable. Akarat's Awakening is vital so I suggest you find one asap. If you go Pig Sticker and Akarat's Awakening in hand + a cubed Hack, you can still run Consecration Bed of Nails in Provoke's place (since in this setup you lose the benefits of Spiker).

[Guest Jaybee]

Hey man, just a quick one. 
Would i use Hack over Pig sticker now? I have Hack (non-ancient) but just recieved a Pig Sticker (Ancient) would i now use Pig sticker until i got an ancient Hack? 
I have Akarats cubed and i am using spiker as my shield :) 
Thanks

[Deadset 108]

3 minutes ago, Guest Jaybee said:

Hey man, just a quick one. 
Would i use Hack over Pig sticker now? I have Hack (non-ancient) but just recieved a Pig Sticker (Ancient) would i now use Pig sticker until i got an ancient Hack?

You can definitely run the Pig Sticker if it's rolled better. I've ran a few simulations on d3planner, the results between the two weapons are very comparable.

Just remember, the only impact of an ancient weapon in a Thorns build are the higher main stats (Strength and Vitality). The weapon damage number is irrelevant, since Thorns damage doesn't scale with it. Stats like Increased Attack Speed and Cooldown Reduction are much more important for a weapon to be considered 'well rolled' :)

[Warden 8]

On 6/27/2016 at 0:30 PM, Deadset said:

You can definitely run the Pig Sticker if it's rolled better. I've ran a few simulations on d3planner, the results between the two weapons are very comparable.

Just remember, the only impact of an ancient weapon in a Thorns build are the higher main stats (Strength and Vitality). The weapon damage number is irrelevant, since Thorns damage doesn't scale with it. Stats like Increased Attack Speed and Cooldown Reduction are much more important for a weapon to be considered 'well rolled' :)

I don't understand why this is.  With Hack applying thorns damage with every hit, and Pig Sticker not, how is it that Hack doesn't do a ton more damage?

[Sebastionleo 1]

3 hours ago, Warden said:

I don't understand why this is.  With Hack applying thorns damage with every hit, and Pig Sticker not, how is it that Hack doesn't do a ton more damage?

Hack is applying 100% thorns damage every hit. Invoker 6pc is applying 800% thorns every hit. So you're getting 800% thorns every hit, faster, with better other stats, also stacking up your 35% thorns increase from 2pc faster, for overall much more thorns. You'll do less damage with your attacks but build up thorns damage higher for more burst damage when you pop cooldowns and get hit.

[Warden 8]

54 minutes ago, Sebastionleo said:

Hack is applying 100% thorns damage every hit. Invoker 6pc is applying 800% thorns every hit. So you're getting 800% thorns every hit, faster, with better other stats, also stacking up your 35% thorns increase from 2pc faster, for overall much more thorns. You'll do less damage with your attacks but build up thorns damage higher for more burst damage when you pop cooldowns and get hit.

Ok, I'm with you so far, but it brings up another question that is probably at the root of my misunderstanding.  Actually, I just answered my own question.

So my issue was with the 6 piece description: applies 800% thorns damage to the *first enemy hit*.  Since Punish only hits one enemy at a time, I couldn't figure out what constituted the First Enemy, but I assumed it must NOT apply 800% thorns with every hit, or else why would they say anything about the first enemy?  Just now I noticed that Slash is an AOE skill, which is why they phrase it that way.  In the case of Punish, every enemy hit is the first enemy, so it applies 800% thorns every time.

Pig Sticker applies 800% thorns while Hack applies 900% (or however it adds them together.)  But attack speed is a huge factor, and Pig Sticker is enough faster than it meets or exceeds the damage of Hack.

Right? :D

Thanks for your help!

[Deadset 108]

On 29.06.2016 г. at 6:19 AM, Warden said:

Right? :D

Right! :D

[Guest Vanguard]

I had  quick question I'm hoping someone can answer. This guide lists "thorns" as a sought after secondary on the Belt of the Trove, but I thought the two secondaries on this belt are preset, with the only variation being the rolls? I believe the two are the unique property and the other is melee damage reduction or something. 

Will thorns not roll on the belt?

Thanks.

[Warden 8]

8 hours ago, Guest Vanguard said:

I had  quick question I'm hoping someone can answer. This guide lists "thorns" as a sought after secondary on the Belt of the Trove, but I thought the two secondaries on this belt are preset, with the only variation being the rolls? I believe the two are the unique property and the other is melee damage reduction or something. 

Will thorns not roll on the belt?

Thorns can be re-rolled onto it at the Mystic.  It won't come with Thorns originally.

[Guest Jansetsfire]

As season 7 is live I keep seeing this build in the EU-ladder with cubed Sanguinary Vambraces and/or Furnace.

For the Furnace it's quite clear why one could swap it in (for me personally it doesn't work out as it destroys my cooldowns ;D ).

But as i tried out the Vambraces I got the impression it indeed does run better than heart of iron. Does anyone know how the bracers actually work (the description is rather vague) and can do some math on that? Not sure if my impression is wrong or if those bracers really outmatch the heart of iron.

[romilly 0]

Hi,

Season 7 questions

http://us.battle.net/d3/en/profile/Romilly-1131/hero/79028476

Ok, I'm loving this build (GR60 w 48 hrs played) now I'm fully geared out (this paperdoll maybe set for a Mastery). I have one BURNING question right now, and several others:

1) Why not a omni-slash build? The 2 piece bonus stacks a 35% bonus for every mob hit w 2 sec decay. The fast attack speed need is obvious, but it seems like a slash (esp w a omni-slash) would create a huge burst of hits and get 20+*35% bonus easy - the best I can get with a Laws boosted speed is like 12 stacks and I get Repetitive Strain Injury trying to get to that!

2) I keep hearing references to Blood Brother -- which I have. I think this is an old thing though. No longer valid? It looks neat, especially as it seems to give you a shield block without a shield equipped? I'm assuming shields are used because you want thorns to proc on block but not dodge?

3) Hack vs Pig Sticker? I see  that you said Hack is better, but then the posts keep referring to PigSticker. I actually have a Pig Sticker, and yet I keep using Swiftmount, as it is only .1 slower than Pig Sticker, and that 6 second mount is amazing for speed.

4) Sanguinary Vambraces -- I want to use these desperately, but I don't see proof they proc very often or don't get the full damage multiplier.

6) Several other people seem to talk about the full on Bombardment build -- but it seems like this isn't a great idea?

Thanks a million for these guides!

 

Rom

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited August 29, 2016 by romilly

[Svperstar 0]

So since everyone else is LoN Bombardment I wanted to do something different and I picked this build.

I think it says you can do 95+ with this build but I find that highly doubtful. Even with 285-315 despair gems in 10 ancients this build caps out very low. I just felt so weak.

Hack is garbage IMO. I found an amazingly rolled ancient Doombringer, and I swapped out Heart of Iron for cubed Sanguinary Vambraces. The higher attack speed of Doombringer and 20% physical helped make up for the loss of hack and the Vambraces absolutely shred when you are surrounded by mobs.

I had TWO ancient Pig Stickers but I salvaged them both :( I do have a non-ancient Pig Sticker and with good rolls it also greatly outclasses Hack due to attack speed.

I don't think this build as it is capable of doing higher grifts unless you get a friend to carry you to 100 level jewels or something. I am more then willing to admit when I am wrong so if someone has video of themselves clearing higher then 70-75 grifts with this build as listed I would love to see it

[Deadset 108]

On 8/23/2016 at 10:58 PM, romilly said:

1) Why not a omni-slash build? The 2 piece bonus stacks a 35% bonus for every mob hit w 2 sec decay. The fast attack speed need is obvious, but it seems like a slash (esp w a omni-slash) would create a huge burst of hits and get 20+*35% bonus easy - the best I can get with a Laws boosted speed is like 12 stacks and I get Repetitive Strain Injury trying to get to that!

2) I keep hearing references to Blood Brother -- which I have. I think this is an old thing though. No longer valid? It looks neat, especially as it seems to give you a shield block without a shield equipped? I'm assuming shields are used because you want thorns to proc on block but not dodge?

3) Hack vs Pig Sticker? I see  that you said Hack is better, but then the posts keep referring to PigSticker. I actually have a Pig Sticker, and yet I keep using Swiftmount, as it is only .1 slower than Pig Sticker, and that 6 second mount is amazing for speed.

4) Sanguinary Vambraces -- I want to use these desperately, but I don't see proof they proc very often or don't get the full damage multiplier.

6) Several other people seem to talk about the full on Bombardment build -- but it seems like this isn't a great idea?

Hello! Answers in order: 

1. Omnislash is just hard to fit in the build; the belt slot is occupied by Belt of the Trove by necessity (damage mitigation from the 4p Invoker bonus), while your Armor cube slot is taken either by more damage mitigation, or Thorns output-boosting items. Punish is fairly independent, and besides the IAS bonuses of Celerity it also provides a baseline Block proc that cannot be ignored for your cooldown resets.

2. Blood Brother is a viable weapon Cube option, but is simply outclassed by other choices at this point.

3. I have some doubts about Pig Sticker vs. Hack myself, it needs to be more thoroughly tested. What I will say for certain is that Pig Sticker definitely has merit in the build, and can take you high into the GRs.

4. The proc should be fixed to apply the full Thorns damage (after multipliers) as of Patch 2.4.1.

5. The Bombardment build demands a much stronger focus away from Blocking and Attack Speed, clashing with the Invoker set quite a bit. It is much better suited to a Legacy of Nightmares combo of synergistic legendaries - a very strong, but different build (which we also have on the site!) :)

 

On 8/27/2016 at 0:19 PM, Svperstar said:

I don't think this build as it is capable of doing higher grifts unless you get a friend to carry you to 100 level jewels or something. I am more then willing to admit when I am wrong so if someone has video of themselves clearing higher then 70-75 grifts with this build as listed I would love to see it

Group play to upgrade Legendary Gems to 100+ levels is definitely a requirement to push to the upper limits of the builds we have listed, yes. The 95 range is indeed out of reach for this build, but 85+ should definitely be possible (I have personally seen 88s cleared with basically the same setup as far back as two patches ago, and that's with several bugs still affecting the performance of the build). That's why I've listed it as a 90-capable at its very top end. Dedicated players even outside the hardcore competitive audience should push above 80 for sure.

From personal testing, lately I've started leaning back towards Pig Sticker over other weapon options. Some of the considerations in the guide were made with PTR mechanics in mind, which have later been altered or even outright nerfed, so the old favorite for the weapon slot rightfully makes a comeback.

[romilly 0]

Thanks so much Deadset! I'm still trying to decide if the random 10* Sanguinary is equal to 3* damage on demand from COE. I think my thoughts so far is that its better on trash and worse on Rift Guardian. Intellectually less challenging as well, as it's one less thing to track (state of COE buff). 

One thing I've noticed is that this build is way easier on golds than it is on blues. If my GR is mostly blues it's almost a certain fail, but golds are walk in a park. I think its from the synergy of 10 minions pounding on me, and where I get to focus on just the gold boss. With blues one or two kills are easy but the last ones are such a pain to finish off.

Im still feel like I'm getting RSI on my trackpad for the fast hits of punish. I wish there was a way to lessen this. I tried binding Punish to a key but that just confused my brain.

 

 

[romilly 0]

BTW, found this older but stickied and update reddit post! Very interesting read. Especially about Hack.

https://www.reddit.com/r/Diablo3Crusaders/comments/41psfg/invoker_interactions/

I'm wondering about the importance of the base attack speed -- with the 50% increase in Punish attack speed anyway? How does the weapon attack speed interact with Punish anyway? Does it completely determine it? Are there any specific breakpoints/mechanical limitations (how many times a second can you hit the key?)

 

[Deadset 108]

On 9/7/2016 at 0:02 AM, romilly said:

BTW, found this older but stickied and update reddit post! Very interesting read. Especially about Hack.

https://www.reddit.com/r/Diablo3Crusaders/comments/41psfg/invoker_interactions/

I'm wondering about the importance of the base attack speed -- with the 50% increase in Punish attack speed anyway? How does the weapon attack speed interact with Punish anyway? Does it completely determine it? Are there any specific breakpoints/mechanical limitations (how many times a second can you hit the key?)

 

Interesting read indeed, but I wonder if it's really kept up to date? It's been published around 2.4 release, and the more recent minor patches have tinkered with those interactions a bit.

Attack Speed bonuses from Punish multiply with your base, making the stat quite good and desirable for the build; attack speed in Diablo 3 caps at 5 attacks per second in general.

I am a bit puzzled with your clicking issue - I personally hold the button down? :)

[Guest Puzzled Guest]

Hey Dead, great guide, just a quick question.

Is "Thorns" being listed in the stat priority for the Justice Lantern an oversight? Justice Lantern  has two secondary properties: reduced control imparing effects, & the legendary text property. Neither of these can be rerolled at the Mystic, so getting "Thorns" onto this ring is not actually possible as far as I understand.

[Valks 2,375]

15 minutes ago, Guest Puzzled Guest said:

Hey Dead, great guide, just a quick question.

Is "Thorns" being listed in the stat priority for the Justice Lantern an oversight? Justice Lantern  has two secondary properties: reduced control imparing effects, & the legendary text property. Neither of these can be rerolled at the Mystic, so getting "Thorns" onto this ring is not actually possible as far as I understand.

I believe it is an oversight, yes. I'll double check and see if it needs to be changed. Thanks for pointing it out!

[Deadset 108]

Will be corrected! Thanks for pointing it out.

[romilly 0]

OMG Deadset, seriously? I've been playing for 9 months and hadn't noticed that! Thank you! Also I just noticed that the current Invokers Build is using the Law with Resist All now - did that change? For some reason I was playing with the Attack Speed Law... Would explain my GR73 survival issues...

 

Edited September 22, 2016 by romilly

[Valks 2,375]

21 hours ago, romilly said:

OMG Deadset, seriously? I've been playing for 9 months and hadn't noticed that! Thank you! Also I just noticed that the current Invokers Build is using the Law with Resist All now - did that change? For some reason I was playing with the Attack Speed Law... Would explain my GR73 survival issues...

I can't see an exact change in the changelog, but it might have been a part of the 2.4.1 changes. Hopefully you can push higher now!

[Guest Zettez]

Great guide! I have a question about punish though: would Angel Hair Braid be a good item or an alternative item in some way? Because the build uses Punish, and I got this today, I thought maybe it would be good to use? Or is it discouraged for the build?