Invoker Thorns Crusader

[Guest Guest]

Hey. I have 2 questions regarding the gear I've seen in numerous invoker builds in diablofans and I would like deadset or someone more qualified than me to comment.

1) Is hack/vo'toyia/awakening better than pig sticker/awakening/blood brother (or furnace)? Pig sticker strikes faster, applying thorns quickly and also has the advantage of an extra stat. People say they perform similarly. 

2) Most people in dfans and bnet forums propose using sanguinary vambraces in cube and omitting heart of iron since its impact in overall dps is quite low. 

Thanks in advance for any comment on these. 

[Guest Ford]

I've read that %Physical does not increase the damage dealt by the Invoker 6pc bonus from a post about Invoker interactions. I'm wondering if this info is still up to date or if it has been changed. Right now %Physical is recommended as one of the stats on gear, but if it doesn't increase the Invoker 6pc bonus, is it really worth it?

Thanks for any insight.

[Arkpit 101]

12 hours ago, Guest Ford said:

I've read that %Physical does not increase the damage dealt by the Invoker 6pc bonus from a post about Invoker interactions. I'm wondering if this info is still up to date or if it has been changed. Right now %Physical is recommended as one of the stats on gear, but if it doesn't increase the Invoker 6pc bonus, is it really worth it?

Even if it would'nt directly make a difference for the 6pc it is definitly applied for your default thorns damage which then in turn is multiplied by the set bonus. I can't be 100% there but the %physical multiplier should occur before the 6pc interaction.

This would mean it has less effect but still a multiplier so regardless it's a damage increase worth looking for.

Edited August 24, 2017 by Arkpit

[Lunaji 1]

On 8/23/2017 at 8:01 PM, Guest Ford said:

I've read that %Physical does not increase the damage dealt by the Invoker 6pc bonus from a post about Invoker interactions. I'm wondering if this info is still up to date or if it has been changed. Right now %Physical is recommended as one of the stats on gear, but if it doesn't increase the Invoker 6pc bonus, is it really worth it?

Thanks for any insight.

The 6-piece benefits from physical since  patch 2.4.2 (August '16).

Thorns of the Invoker

    (6) Set Bonus
        The 800% Thorns damage dealt to the first enemy hit can now benefit from +% Physical Damage

 

Edited September 7, 2017 by Lunaji

[Guest GutturalSole]

Why is Pig Sticker a better choice than Hack?  Hack still feels like the better of the for best in slot.  Applies up to 100% of your thorns dmg and gives big old chunk of thorns dmg as well. 

[Valks 2,375]

On 10/31/2017 at 10:34 PM, Guest GutturalSole said:

Why is Pig Sticker a better choice than Hack?  Hack still feels like the better of the for best in slot.  Applies up to 100% of your thorns dmg and gives big old chunk of thorns dmg as well. 

It doesn't stack with 6-set to max, it just adds 100%, and Pig Sticker attacks faster, so more thorns applications.

[Imyo 0]

Its sad that the best builds for crusader are still all glass cannon, this build cant even reach 100 while the leaderboards are at 116 in the first week, i saw a guy in 525 position with a thorns build that finished it at 14:58, the dmg is just not enough, its good and tanky (kind of) but the dmg is just absurdly low even for single target, i tried all the variations, and the game its not designed to work with thorns damage, its lazy development made all the thorns skills work weird, bed of nails dont do any dmg past 70, you cant even do 1/4 dmg on the weakest white with it and the heal is plain low. The rest of the skills more of the same, bombardment doesnt do much dmg and you need to change a few things in the build to make it do that minimal dmg, the only reliable source of dmg is your single target and the aoe thorns that seems not proc that often even with the whole map pulled and hitting you (saw it doing great dmg sometimes tho), the build needs at least double the attack speed and some kind of aoe capability that doesnt relly on the mobs hitting you, or its just destined to be just another fun but gimped build

[Valks 2,375]

12 hours ago, Imyo said:

Its sad that the best builds for crusader are still all glass cannon, this build cant even reach 100 while the leaderboards are at 116 in the first week

Glass cannon is pretty much the way to go for all classes except DH/Wiz. It's unfortunate, but it's how things are being played atm!

[Guest MCM]

hey guys, one question: wouldnt it be better to wear the CoE and go for the justice lantern at passive? at the CoE u can roll 9k thorns dmg and for JL the Block chance is fix

[Valks 2,375]

On 12/1/2017 at 2:22 AM, Guest MCM said:

hey guys, one question: wouldnt it be better to wear the CoE and go for the justice lantern at passive? at the CoE u can roll 9k thorns dmg and for JL the Block chance is fix

You'd be losing damage by doing so. I would only do this if you have a perfect CoE, with a 190+% affix on it. 

[darkdill 4]

In all honesty, the Invoker set really needs some updates. It does terribly against trash mobs in higher GRs, and I really dislike how it's best weapon is a dagger, of all things, that doesn't have any direct synergy and is only picked for high attack speed. Additionally, the 6pc bonus from Invoker could be better, but Blizzard just had to add in that "first target struck" caveat so that Slash is useless compared to Punish. Really a letdown, IMO.

If Blizzard updates the set, here are two things I'd want to see happen for the set:

1. Improve the 6pc bonus so that it applies that 5400% Thorns damage to all targets you hit with Punish and Slash, not just the first. This way, Slash actually has a use.

2. Add in a new Legendary Flail that is meant for Invoker builds. I'd have the following legendary effect: Upon taunting an enemy, deal X% of your Thorns to all enemies within 15 yards.

The second point is the more important one. Invoker doesn't have a weapon like Condemn builds or Blessed Shield builds, and the lack of one holds the build back. Also, Invoker's weakness against trash mobs is simply debilitating in high GR's.

Any thoughts?

[Valks 2,375]

On 05/12/2017 at 3:18 AM, darkdill said:

Any thoughts?

It rests in a very similar spot to a number of sets for other classes where it's solidly "behind" as the weaker set of the class. I'd put Thorns in the same pool as LoN sets, where it needs to be revisited to help it fit into the new "play anything" patch we have now. 

[Guest Roldy]

1. The stat priority for Crown of the Invoker lists All Resist as priority #5 however All Resist is not a possible property for this item. Potential worthwhile alternatives are - Life, Armor and Life on Hit. From the PoV of which this guide has been written what would be the suggested choice here? I see on the wrist slot that Life on Hit is taken over All Resist, although if the balance intent is for a toughness property in this slot then Life seems the obvious choice. Grateful for some guidance here?
    
2. Several items list thorns twice, why is this and how should this be interpreted when assessing priority?
    
3. Sometimes you may not have a perfect roll on CDR but close enough that it could be more beneficial to chase one of the other stat priorities. Would it be possible to provide a suggested breakpoint for CDR?

[positiv2 953]

On 6. 4. 2018 at 12:48 PM, Guest Roldy said:

Several items list thorns twice, why is this and how should this be interpreted when assessing priority?

Thanks for pointing this out! the fix will be released soon.

[Guest Elekim]

Good article, thank you! I noticed that the "speed farming variation" page has some typos and omissis: the Skill tab has Provoke while the description speaks of Consecration, the adapting gem section suggests Goldwrap but the adapting gear section does not, and the full table with stat priorities that is found on many other similar pages is missing. Just to make it clearer for unexperienced readers, and for the sake of aesthetics and completness for everyone. ?

[positiv2 953]

On 8/12/2018 at 2:38 AM, Guest Elekim said:

Good article, thank you! I noticed that the "speed farming variation" page has some typos and omissis: the Skill tab has Provoke while the description speaks of Consecration, the adapting gem section suggests Goldwrap but the adapting gear section does not, and the full table with stat priorities that is found on many other similar pages is missing. Just to make it clearer for unexperienced readers, and for the sake of aesthetics and completness for everyone. ?

Thanks! These issues and ambiguities should no longer be present.

[Butter629 0]

So can bonus 5400% thorns damage not crit?  Sorry if you have already specified this and I just didn't understand.

[Guest Jbee02]

On 1/20/2016 at 8:56 PM, Kelvarr said:

 

So there is no point in using Amethysts at all?  I still don't understand the full effect of Strength on Thorns.

I disagree, yes 1 point in strength will give you more thorn damage output than 1 point in vitality (with The Heart of Iron) but a single point in vitality will increase both your thorn damage and your survivability. It's far more economical to focus more on vitality over strength. I'd prioritize stats in this order vitality, strength, thorns, life per hit, attack speed, life per second. 

 

In fact my thorn build focus not negating damage but on regen. More specifically life per hit. Every time you hit some one you regen. Every time some one hits you and  they take thorn damage you regen. I'd dual wield two weapons with flawless royal topaz, it will give 114,000 thorns, (156,000 if you using barbarian). Forget the name of it but there's a legendary weapon that increases you attack speed 50% and your damage 200%, it's a perfect power to use as it will increase you regen when you focus on life per hit.

[Knutsanity 15]

Glad I read this. No Primal yet, but unlocked I guess! I did lvl 70 solo and up to 72 in co op with my buddy. Seems I'm good enough for another 5 or 6 levels in solo. His DH can't quite get lvl 70 solo yet, probably 66 or so. So My lvl 61 Simplicities Strength is my new Augmenting Leg gem is what you are telling me, whoops. And I could add Vitality for defence and a tiny bit of thorns from the  Heart of Iron , or strength for just thorns, but probably more? I got that on and the suggested chest, aquilla currass, cubed, so backwards, which I assume is all the same. So I'll get that   Bane of the Stricken going now to add to   Boyarsky's Chip, but I'm not taking off the esoteric, not on Hardcore. 

I'm using Blood Brother in the cube, With a sheild and the justice lantern, the sheild is the one where Provoked enemies take 2 times thorns. which has seemed huge. With the travelers pledge, compass rose, iron skin, akarats Champion, bombardments helping my damage reduction, The law helping me and my buddies resistances and armour, the aquilla currass in the cube and provoke upping my armour, My Toughness goes up to a max of around 2.7 Bill. I'm a complete tank. I don't want to die obviously, so I hope the Bane of the stricken being useful for my thorns punish, while the simplicity strength apparently was not, helps my damage grow dramatically, seems like it would the harder things are too fight, great then. I don't care about leaderboards, but This is my best build so far of my 7 classes I got going on right now. A few ancients like the gloves I've spent 300 gazzillion bloodshards trying to get, will get me pretty up there with seemingly little damage issues. Nemesis bracers can even stay on a while with the ring of granduer in my cube. 
But I also just learned physical dmg does indeed work for thorns! so good work thanks! for the post and replies with useful questions. Guess that convention of elements, and it's only being helpful for 4 seconds out of every 20, may be as best I can do and i'll put the set bracers back on eventually. my other ring is for cooldowns ? then I can do iron skin for every elite pack, or 2 if need be, plus everything not punish is cooldown really and helps so much with toughness.  I never choose cooldown over vitality or damage, try to ride that line where my cooldowns can get it done in 10-12 minutes, now that I'm at paragon 600 it's important, but I don't have to be done rifts in 5 minutes and can't die on HC. So one boost to cooldowns and bit of paragon will do. 

No room for steed charge, imagine it's great for going from elite to elite. But the 25% Movement speed will have to do for now. Room for improvement for sure, between ancients, which I only have 4. and maybe going back to my pig sticker ancient over the useless one I Have. It had better rolls and can be used for another build for heavens fury later, so I put a socket into it and am using it for now. But a good hack or one of the ones with physical damage sounds just as comparable to the extra attack speed to me. In the end I'm already at 1.95 attacks per second anyway, plus punish goes faster than that. It sounds like maybe I just didn't get the best pig sticker though. 

I'm thinking my slightly more defensive build with some more ancients, or I can pray Primal ancients could do a 85-90 GR pretty soon on HC. Now that I got some ideas from you guys anyway. And before the update patch upgrades it more really. But I should consider the 4% life I've been getting per hit, which is huge with that attack speed, from the useless leg gem I thought was great. It's a fun build with many options it looks like to me. Could do provoke sheild or akkarat, could do a couple different weapons. Could do ring of granduer, nemesis bracers to make up for lack of steed charge and CoE, less travel for more elites, and still good damage. 

Of course I've gotten great looking sets with ancients for all the other sets for crusader. Gonna try a build for heavens fury and akarat I think, maybe the blessed hammer and falling sword which sounds super fun. Finally time to use that armoury. 

 

[Knutsanity 15]

I was thinking about my justice lantern legendary with a perfect 55% of block chance for damage reduction. Also my provoke does extra 30% block chance not armour come to think of it sorry, so I'm at 77 without that, so over 100%. I was dreaming of a primal ancient justice lantern and wondering if the max rolls includes legendary abilities? I hope so. Most ancients I've found useful but I may like different things than others. I'd say half of them only need 1 thing changed to be better than a great normal legendary. So I think I'll love primal ancients more than most seem too either way. 
Also I second the question of the person above who asked about crit % and Dmg and whether that is just as useful with thorns and the punish bonus with this set, as it is with everything else. I was assuming it was? But I was also thinking that weapon damage and primary skill (strength) isn't nearly as important as with everything else, so maybe it's not? My crits don't seem as outrageous compared to my normal hits like I would think it would be. 

[Knutsanity 15]

So I apologise. Read the build and like 7 pages of this thread before my posts. Found those answers to my questions in the links on the build page. Crit doesn't matter. Was able to change all but 2 rolls on my gear now. Got the new gem up to lvl 50, got one more ancient, and my first primal ancient. Replaced my justice lantern because I don't take any damage yet anyway. Was a Krede's fame that restores my primary resource that I don't use. But I had too put it on. Was part of getting rid of my crit ? Got Strength, Vitality, Life% and a socket. which was almost perfect, had to change its one secondary stat to thorns ? Reluctantly took the Nemesis bracers off for invoker, and the ring of royal granduer off my cube power for the justice lantern for now. Had tried taking off the compass rose and TP for better ancients for now, but the damage had a bigger effect from that set than I figured. But the end game perfect build looks bang on for all that. 
Also got my thoughts on the weapon confirmed, hack will be maybe best now since the last update, and doombringer is an option. Obviously Pig Sticker with its chance at 5 primary stats, or another 1.5 speed weapon. Know in a perfect world I get an ancient with Strength, Vitality, Attack speed, Cooldown, dmg % and a socket. Got a socket gift waiting. Loads of options for a close to top pick weapon. Need to get 3 of those stats, change the extra damage to the 4th and put in a socket. Or with a pig sticker get 4 and change the extra dmg to the other, and put in a socket. But I'd waste my socket gift on just about anything at this point, even just Strength vitality and 1 of those stats would be a huge improvement for my weapon, for this build, after I change it. Surprised I din't have one in my box already. Had an ancient pig sticker and must've salvaged it, know it didn't have the proper stats for this build, and I likely had already changed the wrong one, but still, whoops. 

[Knutsanity 15]

Still need ancient boots, gloves, bracers and better and or ancient TPledge and CRose ( stupid crit, stupid me) and the weapon. Looks like a lot can improve and the gems levelled up and this build should get me to lvl 80 grifts easy, on hardcore. Maybe 90 solo. only went up to 73 co op (2 people) so far.