Invoker Thorns Crusader

[Deadset 108]

hi this crusader invoker set manual is wery nice !

 

can you post me some info about HC i have it in new sezon i can go torment x (i dont use folower i play offten with friend - hunter)  but i need to know how change pasive skills (Finery - Indestructible i dont wann die) iam going with friend GR 50+ and need to know if i have to change set to legecy of nightmares + ancients (bombardment skill build) or i can go it with ancient inviker set ?

 

can i go with invoker set GR 60+ ?

 

THX Ove

 

Heya! The Legacy of Nightmares Bombardment build is considered better than Invoker, but that's only for pushing the highest of high tiers (90 and beyond). With an optimized Invoker, you should be able to reach the 80-85 range.

 

In HC, I'd swap Finery for Indestructible for sure. If you don't feel threatened, you can also swap your defensive law for Laws of Valor Critical to help out your Demon Hunter friend.

 

 

Can anyone confirm whether 2.4.1 changed the 6-piece set bonus to benefit from + physical %? If so, getting this on both ring and amulet would be huge, but if it still doesn't benefit it, might be better to roll IAS/CDR on ammy (although maybe physical % is still better but just not as good as it could be).

 

To my knowledge, the Invoker set benefits fully from Physical elemental damage on gear, making it desirable on bracers and amulet. Your jewelry necessities lock you out of a Physical % ring due to needing both Justice Lantern and The Compass Rose.

[Guest seacow]

Thanks for the response. Rolling an additional 20% physical damage on my amulet has made a significant difference.

 

The consensus seems to be Hack is the clear BiS. I can't help but wonder if that is based on its pre-"nerf" PTR bug fix (proccing AD like no other). A perfectly rolled hack would only result in a 12.5% increase in your single target thorns damage (800% from 6 plus 100% from Hack for 900% total). Is it best because it still interacts with 2 piece to hit everything around you? That would be big, but if not proccing AD, your normal 2 piece reflect may outshine it by a lot in density.

 

Otherwise, I can't help but wonder if Doombringer or the old stand-by, Pig Sticker, are viable or even better. Doombringer can roll 20% more physical, which, even with 40% physical from ammy/bracers, would be an over 14% increase to all thorns, including 6 piece. Not to mention both Doombringer and Pig Sticker have faster base attacks (1.4 and 1.5, respectively) and each roll with an additional primary stat relative to Hack. 

 

Not to say Hack is bad. Just trying to think about how clear cut BiS is, or if it's really about item rolls and trade offs. It would seem that Bliz intended Hack to be the Invoker Crusader weapon of choice, but it would have been nice if they'd upped the base attack to at least 1.4 aps and/or had it roll with a guaranteed thorns secondary stat.

 

 

[Guest AnjaRubik]

Hi, im a HC player and i have a question regarding hack vs pig sticker for s6

in 10 sec

hack deal (100+800)(100 for hack, 800 for 6p set)*1.3(aspd)*10(sec) = 11700

pig deal (800)(800 for 6p set)*1.5(aspd)*10(sec) = 12000

add in life on hit factor where pig also generate slightly more health than hack

plus % bonus on beast n human

 

is there a scenario where hack may outshine pig despite paper-wise pig is slightly better than hack ?

side-question, does votyas spiker shield also increase dmg from punish hit?

 

http://us.battle.net/d3/en/profile/AnjaRubik-1847/hero/73018864

in case anyone wanna take a peek :)

[Guest Ray]

For those in the Grift 65 to 70 range, do you mind posting sheet dps, toughness, and thorns damage?  I've hit a wall at 63 and I have all the requisite pieces (including some ancients), no augments yet.  So I'm eliminating any gearing issues by finding out how close or far my stats are.  

 

Also, from a play style standpoint, how are you guys proceeding through a rift, I've been horsing through reg mobs and using my CDs on champ/elite packs.  

 

Thanks in advance

 

Ray#1542 

[Inso 2]

Hi, im a HC player and i have a question regarding hack vs pig sticker for s6

in 10 sec

hack deal (100+800)(100 for hack, 800 for 6p set)*1.3(aspd)*10(sec) = 11700

pig deal (800)(800 for 6p set)*1.5(aspd)*10(sec) = 12000

add in life on hit factor where pig also generate slightly more health than hack

plus % bonus on beast n human

 

is there a scenario where hack may outshine pig despite paper-wise pig is slightly better than hack ?

side-question, does votyas spiker shield also increase dmg from punish hit?

 

http://us.battle.net/d3/en/profile/AnjaRubik-1847/hero/73018864

in case anyone wanna take a peek

Hello AnjaRubik, 

 

After reading your post I went on and tested 2 GR70 runs with both weapons, and here's the result (not in terms of the numbers your asking for):

- With Hack equipped: 1.83 attacks per second, max of 10-11 stacks from Invoker's 2-set bonus achieved

- With Pig Sticker equipped: 2.09 attacks per second, max of 20 stacks from Invoker's 2-set bonus achieved

 

I was stuck at GR71, I guess with the good Ancient Pig Sticker that I got today I will be able to push past 71, without having any Caldesann's Despair on gear yet. Whereas last season I was only able to reach GR76 with almost fully augmented ancient gear and Paragon 850.

 

Furthermore, once I reach 60%+ CDR, I will remove Akarat's Awakening from the cube and replace it with Hack, I believe it will make a huge difference. Will let you know how it goes.

[Inso 2]

For those in the Grift 65 to 70 range, do you mind posting sheet dps, toughness, and thorns damage?  I've hit a wall at 63 and I have all the requisite pieces (including some ancients), no augments yet.  So I'm eliminating any gearing issues by finding out how close or far my stats are.  

 

Also, from a play style standpoint, how are you guys proceeding through a rift, I've been horsing through reg mobs and using my CDs on champ/elite packs.  

 

Thanks in advance

 

Ray#1542 

Hello Ray, 

 

My stats are:

- Toughness: 161,259,232

- Recovery: 8,338,594

- Thorns: 274,472

- Str: 10,462

- Vit: 8,436

- AS: 2.09

- Block Chance: 74%

- CDR: 54.44%

- Physical dmg increase: 20%

- Area dmg: 70%

(http://eu.battle.net/d3/en/profile/Inso-2827/hero/77272927)

 

As for the playstyle, I horse through packs till I get either a pack with an elite/champion or a big pack (30-40+ mobs), if less than that it's not worth it. 

When I finished GR71 I was at around 500ish paragon points and was using Hack as a weapon, not Pig Sticker. Though at the moment I am getting better results with the Pig Sticker.

 

I hope this helps.

[Inso 2]

Ok so I have tested Hack vs Pig Sticker in GR71, 72, and 73, the results were not even close.

I know that succeeding in completing a GR on time is in huge part due to the type of map and mobs you get, however, the difference shouldn't be big, especially considering that Hack has been buffed to properly apply thorns damage. 

With Hack equipped, GR71 completed, 72 failed 3 times.

With Pig Sticker equipped, GR71 compeleted 4.5 minutes faster than Hack, 72 completed (approx 3.5 minutes faster than GR71 with Hack), and GR 73 completed about 2 minutes faster than GR71 with Hack.

This is only my personal testing, but I guess Pig Sticker is still far better than Hack.

 

If anyone else would conduct such a test and share the results I'd appreciate it.

[Guest BiS Corrector]

Just a heads up, the BiS list shows the Invoker Shoulders are best for head slot and shoulder slots lol

[Guest Jay]

Ok so I have tested Hack vs Pig Sticker in GR71, 72, and 73, the results were not even close.

I know that succeeding in completing a GR on time is in huge part due to the type of map and mobs you get, however, the difference shouldn't be big, especially considering that Hack has been buffed to properly apply thorns damage. 

With Hack equipped, GR71 completed, 72 failed 3 times.

With Pig Sticker equipped, GR71 compeleted 4.5 minutes faster than Hack, 72 completed (approx 3.5 minutes faster than GR71 with Hack), and GR 73 completed about 2 minutes faster than GR71 with Hack.

This is only my personal testing, but I guess Pig Sticker is still far better than Hack.

 

If anyone else would conduct such a test and share the results I'd appreciate it.

I have tested them. Just cleared 72 with pig sticker but not fully optimized yet. i tried GR 70 with an Ancient Hack but the extra attack speed with life per hit seems to be better for me. I dont know if im doing something wrong, ive tried provoke and consecration but i seemed to die almost instantly with Hack. 

[Inso 2]

 

Ok so I have tested Hack vs Pig Sticker in GR71, 72, and 73, the results were not even close.

I know that succeeding in completing a GR on time is in huge part due to the type of map and mobs you get, however, the difference shouldn't be big, especially considering that Hack has been buffed to properly apply thorns damage. 

With Hack equipped, GR71 completed, 72 failed 3 times.

With Pig Sticker equipped, GR71 compeleted 4.5 minutes faster than Hack, 72 completed (approx 3.5 minutes faster than GR71 with Hack), and GR 73 completed about 2 minutes faster than GR71 with Hack.

This is only my personal testing, but I guess Pig Sticker is still far better than Hack.

 

If anyone else would conduct such a test and share the results I'd appreciate it.

I have tested them. Just cleared 72 with pig sticker but not fully optimized yet. i tried GR 70 with an Ancient Hack but the extra attack speed with life per hit seems to be better for me. I dont know if im doing something wrong, ive tried provoke and consecration but i seemed to die almost instantly with Hack. 

 

faster attack speed + life per hit is why you survive longer with Pig Sticker; you're simply hitting faster and more often and gaining life back each time you hit. Definitely keep provoke/hit me and get rid of consecration.

[PoserPunx 0]

Hey Deadset, I traded out my Hack for a Pig Sticker and I cannot seem to thrive past GR 62. I can manage it within 10 minutes but I cannot move too much faster due to survival issues on Hardcore. 
 

Here is a link to my profile, if you (or anyone) can give me any tips on how to improve the build, I would greatly appreciate it!

 

http://us.battle.net/d3/en/profile/PoserPunx-1180/hero/76053905

 

(My profile doesn't seem to have updated, my Boyarsky's Chip is now Rank 64)

 

Thanks, 

Poser Punx

[PoserPunx 0]

 

hi this crusader invoker set manual is wery nice !

 

can you post me some info about HC i have it in new sezon i can go torment x (i dont use folower i play offten with friend - hunter)  but i need to know how change pasive skills (Finery - Indestructible i dont wann die) iam going with friend GR 50+ and need to know if i have to change set to legecy of nightmares + ancients (bombardment skill build) or i can go it with ancient inviker set ?

 

can i go with invoker set GR 60+ ?

 

THX Ove

 

Heya! The Legacy of Nightmares Bombardment build is considered better than Invoker, but that's only for pushing the highest of high tiers (90 and beyond). With an optimized Invoker, you should be able to reach the 80-85 range.

 

In HC, I'd swap Finery for Indestructible for sure. If you don't feel threatened, you can also swap your defensive law for Laws of Valor Critical to help out your Demon Hunter friend.

 

In reference to this, I would suggest keeping Finery, I find it helps with killing enemies faster but I could just be playing it more risky I should. 

Edited May 17, 2016 by PoserPunx

[Inso 2]

Hey Deadset, I traded out my Hack for a Pig Sticker and I cannot seem to thrive past GR 62. I can manage it within 10 minutes but I cannot move too much faster due to survival issues on Hardcore. 

 

Here is a link to my profile, if you (or anyone) can give me any tips on how to improve the build, I would greatly appreciate it!

 

http://us.battle.net/d3/en/profile/PoserPunx-1180/hero/76053905

 

(My profile doesn't seem to have updated, my Boyarsky's Chip is now Rank 64)

 

Thanks, 

Poser Punx

Hey PoserPunx, 

 

First of all, your profile is updated, i can see your gem at level 64.

My piece of advice:

- Your shield needs more block%... reforge the CDR into 11% block. (Note that even if you reach the 75% block cap, you can still go higher because of the synergy of your block% and the Justice Lantern ring).

- Reforge the resource cost on your gloves (CDR or Life per Hit)

- Laws of Justice better have Decaying Strength instead of Immovable Object

- You should use the Enchantress as you follower to boost your toughness (any gear would do, as long as she has the "Your follower cannot die" relic), with the following spells: Forceful Push / Missile Ward / Erosion / Focused Mind

 

Fixing the aforementioned 4 points will take care of your survival issues.

 

Furthermore, most of your gear is lacking important stats, like Physical %, CDR, Life per Hit, Thorns, etc.. depending on the pieces respectively. 

 

As for the weapon, I'm sticking to Pig Sticker, my personal testing showed I am getting far better results with Pig Sticker than Hack.

You can check my profile for comparison, and feel free to add me ingame if you have any questions.

[Guest z1r1a3l]

Hey,Deadset. I have a question.
Is it worth to replace Iron heart for Sanguinary Vambraces?
Or replace Convention of Elements in cube for RoRG and equip  Sanguinary Vambraces instead of set wrists?

[Guest Mekanyx]

Firstly Want to say thanks for the build. I love the hack and slash version and using it got me from a wall of grift 60 LON to grift 65 with this Thorns Build. Would love to get past grift 65 advise would be appreciated.

 

Currently Im focusing on levelling up my gems to get the Caldesians Bonus also I substituted In-Geoms for now due to lack of akkarats. (after reading forums i will also try getting some gear on Enchantress and try her out)

 

Heres a link to my Character 

 

http://us.battle.net/d3/en/profile/Mekanyx-6837/hero/74937277

[Inso 2]

Firstly Want to say thanks for the build. I love the hack and slash version and using it got me from a wall of grift 60 LON to grift 65 with this Thorns Build. Would love to get past grift 65 advise would be appreciated.

 

Currently Im focusing on levelling up my gems to get the Caldesians Bonus also I substituted In-Geoms for now due to lack of akkarats. (after reading forums i will also try getting some gear on Enchantress and try her out)

 

Heres a link to my Character 

 

http://us.battle.net/d3/en/profile/Mekanyx-6837/hero/74937277

Hi Mekanyx, 

 

What's your Block% currently at?

After GR65, are you not doing dmg fast enough or dying a lot? (My guess is that you're dying due to lack of an additional 11% block on your equipped shield). 

Either way, I would personally recommend you use the Enchantress (her gear doesn't matter at all, you just want her not to die), she will provide you with a some much needed extra Toughness.

Furthermore, and since you don't have Akarat's Awakening in the cube yet (I know what a ***** it is to get), I would recommend using Blood Brother instead of In-geom, Blood Brother will increase both your survival and your damage.

Finally, try to get a good Pig Sticker instead of Hack, the difference will be huge in your damage output.

Lastly, you just need some better stats on your gear, my advice is that you don't augment using Caldesann's Despair right now before you try the aforementioned.

Let me know if this helps.

[Guest Stargazer]

Hi Inso, could you please outline the stats required on an ideal Pig Sticker? Are they the same as hack with some other stats added on? 

 

Thanks. 

[Guest Patrick]

Hello Deadset,

 

 

Thank you for the build Just wanted a few pointers on my current setup. http://us.battle.net/d3/en/profile/projectpat2-1927/hero/76556461Currently I am working to change the armor and jewlery for better roles and also switching that consecration out for the law of justice. Any other suggestions that you can see would be appreciated. I am going through GR 65-72 with 2-3 friends and also running solo once in awhile.

 

Many thanks

[Inso 2]

Hi Inso, could you please outline the stats required on an ideal Pig Sticker? Are they the same as hack with some other stats added on? 

 

Thanks. 

 

Hi Stargazer, 

 

Ideally: strength, vitality, attack speed, life on hit, cooldown reduction, and socket from Ramaladni's Gift. You can (and should) re-roll the weapon dmg into whatever you're missing from the above. Some people prefer to use Area Damage over Attack Speed, not me though, and I personally do not advise it.

I was lucky with a perfect Pig Sticker ancient roll: http://eu.battle.net/d3/en/profile/Inso-2827/hero/77272927

[Guest Mekanyx]

 

Firstly Want to say thanks for the build. I love the hack and slash version and using it got me from a wall of grift 60 LON to grift 65 with this Thorns Build. Would love to get past grift 65 advise would be appreciated.

 

Currently Im focusing on levelling up my gems to get the Caldesians Bonus also I substituted In-Geoms for now due to lack of akkarats. (after reading forums i will also try getting some gear on Enchantress and try her out)

 

Heres a link to my Character 

 

http://us.battle.net/d3/en/profile/Mekanyx-6837/hero/74937277

Hi Mekanyx, 

 

What's your Block% currently at?

After GR65, are you not doing dmg fast enough or dying a lot? (My guess is that you're dying due to lack of an additional 11% block on your equipped shield). 

Either way, I would personally recommend you use the Enchantress (her gear doesn't matter at all, you just want her not to die), she will provide you with a some much needed extra Toughness.

Furthermore, and since you don't have Akarat's Awakening in the cube yet (I know what a ***** it is to get), I would recommend using Blood Brother instead of In-geom, Blood Brother will increase both your survival and your damage.

Finally, try to get a good Pig Sticker instead of Hack, the difference will be huge in your damage output.

Lastly, you just need some better stats on your gear, my advice is that you don't augment using Caldesann's Despair right now before you try the aforementioned.

Let me know if this helps.

 

Update so far, 

 

Block % was hurting me and i didn't even know. No wonder i felt that i was losing off on the sustain i got from templar follower when i switched to sorceress.The one big change was blood brother in kanai's. Cleared gr 65 a whole 4 minutes faster than my best time. Will give more updates as i progress. 

[Guest Stargazer]

 

Hi Inso, could you please outline the stats required on an ideal Pig Sticker? Are they the same as hack with some other stats added on? 

 

Thanks. 

 

Hi Stargazer, 

 

Ideally: strength, vitality, attack speed, life on hit, cooldown reduction, and socket from Ramaladni's Gift. You can (and should) re-roll the weapon dmg into whatever you're missing from the above. Some people prefer to use Area Damage over Attack Speed, not me though, and I personally do not advise it.

I was lucky with a perfect Pig Sticker ancient roll: http://eu.battle.net/d3/en/profile/Inso-2827/hero/77272927

 

Thanks for the reply. Also could you explain why you choose damage dealing abilities for the sorceress when follower DPS is extremely low?

[Inso 2]

 

 

Hi Inso, could you please outline the stats required on an ideal Pig Sticker? Are they the same as hack with some other stats added on? 

 

Thanks. 

 

Hi Stargazer, 

 

Ideally: strength, vitality, attack speed, life on hit, cooldown reduction, and socket from Ramaladni's Gift. You can (and should) re-roll the weapon dmg into whatever you're missing from the above. Some people prefer to use Area Damage over Attack Speed, not me though, and I personally do not advise it.

I was lucky with a perfect Pig Sticker ancient roll: http://eu.battle.net/d3/en/profile/Inso-2827/hero/77272927

 

Thanks for the reply. Also could you explain why you choose damage dealing abilities for the sorceress when follower DPS is extremely low?

 

Hi again Stargazer, 

 

Simply put, where I chose damage dealing abilities on the Enchantress is to avoid using the other ability that would actually hurt me.

Here's how i thought of it:

- Forceful Push will help sometimes if you need to break free from a crowded pack and your Stead is on Cooldown. Charm hurts the invoker crusader because usually the mobs attack the charmed minion, and you really want them to attack you

- Missile ward provides me with a permanent damage reduction buff from ranged attack. I opted not to take Powered Armor because I don't want the mobs attacking me to be slowed more than they are already (remember, the more you are attacked, the more you block, hence the faster your CDR becomes and the more damage you deal)

- I took Erosion not for the damage it deals, but for the debuff it applies making enemy mobs take additional damage. I would definitely not take Disorient (disorients enemies for 2 seconds every 6 seconds) for the same reasons mentioned in the 2 points above

- Focused Mind is a permanent 3% attack speed increase, which is superb for a thorns crusader, whereas Mass Control follows the same reasons mentioned above, I do not want enemy minions to be hexed for 5 seconds every 18 seconds, it's a loss of damage for me

 

Please keep in mind that those are personal choices after my own testing, and they simply work well for me. If you find that the other spells suit your play style better then please do share it with us, which spells and under which circumstances.

[AMCope 1]

Is this build still viable?

[Damien 1,514]

6 hours ago, AMCope said:

Is this build still viable?

Everyone on the ladder is using Bombardment with LoN. That's not to say that Thorns is not viable, but it's not as good as Bombardment I guess.

[AMCope 1]

8 hours ago, Damien said:

Everyone on the ladder is using Bombardment with LoN. That's not to say that Thorns is not viable, but it's not as good as Bombardment I guess.

I tried it out last night but I wanted to keep it safe since I'm was trying this out on hardcore. My safety zone topped out at GR72 for it but it still works well until I can get all the pieces for LoN.