[Secret paladin]This is getting ridiculous.

[SmokinAce 0]

secret pally is not even all that.. its all about the draw .... and if you play sec pally you should know how to beat one... if not join em.

 

personally i prefer classes that are fun to play.. sec pally is boring..

[positiv2 953]

If the nerf will really happen and players will make "leave threads", I will tell them to leave if they don't like the decision of Blizzard. In the end, I will tell that to everyone who is against the state of the game, such as you now.
So, now I compared it in the way that people left when it got nerfed. I didn't say it was on the same level or anything. I don't deny that it left some players rather unhappy and now with hindsight it was not that great of an idea (although I was against nerf even back then) to nerf it to the ground. Whatever now, it was done and it won't be taken back.
A lot of people used to take Face Hunters to ladder. Was it the strongest deck at that time? No. Was it quite simple and resulted in fast games? Yes. Let's say that you have 55% winrate with face hunter and 60% with fatigue warrior. However, Face Hunter decks tend to finish the game faster, resulting in more stars per given time. That's one of the reasons people play secret Paladins - they have shorter games than for example Renolocks or Freeze Mages. They don't necessarily need to have higher winrates, they just want to rank up faster.
Also, would you stop with that ad hominem, please?
 

secret pally is not even all that.. its all about the draw .... and if you play sec pally you should know how to beat one... if not join em.
 
personally i prefer classes that are fun to play.. sec pally is boring..

Is not every deck about the draw?

[batanete 28]

If the nerf will really happen and players will make "leave threads", I will tell them to leave if they don't like the decision of Blizzard. In the end, I will tell that to everyone who is against the state of the game, such as you now.

So, now I compared it in the way that people left when it got nerfed. I didn't say it was on the same level or anything. I don't deny that it left some players rather unhappy and now with hindsight it was not that great of an idea (although I was against nerf even back then) to nerf it to the ground. Whatever now, it was done and it won't be taken back.

A lot of people used to take Face Hunters to ladder. Was it the strongest deck at that time? No. Was it quite simple and resulted in fast games? Yes. Let's say that you have 55% winrate with face hunter and 60% with fatigue warrior. However, Face Hunter decks tend to finish the game faster, resulting in more stars per given time. That's one of the reasons people play secret Paladins - they have shorter games than for example Renolocks or Freeze Mages. They don't necessarily need to have higher winrates, they just want to rank up faster.

Also, would you stop with that ad hominem, please?

 

secret pally is not even all that.. its all about the draw .... and if you play sec pally you should know how to beat one... if not join em.

 

personally i prefer classes that are fun to play.. sec pally is boring..

Is not every deck about the draw?

So what you're saying is, people who have an opinion about the game and aren't about to swallow everything blizzard shoves down our throats should be quitting? Yeah, makes total sense to me. Face hunter was(and still is, to a certain degree, despite being a terrible deck right now) one of the most popular decks on the lower ranks of ladder because as you said games are short, and the deck has developed a reputation for being simple to play, as it is indeed easy to do decently with despite the fact that at higher rankings it takes just as much skill to play as many other decks. Secret paladin's games are nowhere near as short on average as the average face or even less all-in aggro deck like aggro druid. Yet it is still by far the most popular deck on ladder AND one of the most popular decks in tournament line ups. That only leads me to believe that the skill cap of the deck is extremely low, and that it is very hard to counter effectively, as even most of the so called "counters" can easily get beaten by a good draw by the paladin player.

 

 

I'm not trying to attack you in any way, I just find your opinion, regardless of the fact that you are entitled to it, aggravating, as you seem to have the mindset that regardless of what state the game is in people don't have a right to voice their frustration. I could claim that by saying that I should quit the game because I have the opposite opinion you are the one attacking me. I used to enjoy playing hearthstone, and there is a deck out there that has recently hindered my enjoyment, and I realize I'm far from the only person who thinks this. So excuse me if I'm not going to just sit back and let my game experience be ruined.

Edited January 24, 2016 by batanete

[Shadis86 1]

We all know what the secrets are in the secret paladin deck.  Which means, you know how to pilot around them.  Attack with the lowest power minion, see which minion gets the avenge buff and deal with it accordingly, and take the board back and the secret pally is so far behind in resources it's a coasting win past turn 6.  I have beaten numerous secret paladins learning how to navigate their secrets.  Dragon priest eats secret pally for breakfast, and Freeze Mage stalls it long enough to get the combo win.  In regards to Oil Rogue being the most competitive, I would have to say Raptor Rogue is catching up as i'm currently piloting one and went from rank 15 to rank 11 today alone.  Plus it's really fun to play.

[positiv2 953]

Yes, that's what I'm saying. Don't like the game? There's the door. There is plenty of other F2P card games, such as MtG: Duels or RuneScape Chronicles. Neither of them has Secret Paladins, so problem fixed for you. 

Although they aren't as short, they still are short. Definitely shorter than Freeze Mage or Control Warrior. 

And the good draw of Pally player gets countered by good draw of the counter deck. If freeze mage draw every answer, pally won't win. But let's not forget that you can't affect draw. That's what I don't like about hearthstone: you are too reliant on draw, but that's not the point right now.

Yes, you can voice your frustration, but I do not like the way of "I quit" threads and the statements such as "When will blizzard open their eyes?" when Ben Brode already said that he knows that Secret Pally is a very strong deck.

I have played so many card games that I feel like 50% is still somewhat OK and that secret paladin is still ok compared to other thing I have seen. I don't like facing secret paladins, but there decks I hate more than Secret Pally so I don't really care about him.

Actually you started this by "attacking" the game and I just try to defend it. "Don't like it? Quit." is one of the most common phrases that are simply true to some extent. Also, the reasons why I haven't deleted this thread is because it started discussion (more of a dialogue that is) and you are saying stuff that makes sense (although I do not agree with it).

Does ranting improve your experience of the game? Also, HearthStone devs don't visit this forum AFAIK, so ranting here won't help change the state of game. This is where the devs are.

[Valkyr 55]

Raptor rogue has been fun

 

I see you don't play Midrange Paladin or Eboladin (Aggro Pally). They are strong decks (although Aggro Pally is weak in this meta).

As for Druid, you have Midrange Druid, Control/Taunt druid (my favourite deck) and Aggro Druid.

Malygos rogue is somewhat viable again and can possibly see more play in near future. Still, oil is the strongest and to some extent even the only competitive rogue deck. 

So, your view on tech cards is that they take place in decks, which results in the decks being less different from each other? For example, you play Zoo. You decide to include a Shadowflame to deal with other Flood decks, you lose the "flavour". You get rid of one minion that is usually less important and won't affect the "soul" of the deck, such as Brann Bronzebeard. This did not change the deck that much to be a "cookie-cutter". Don't forget that there are decks which do not really care about tech cards, such as Freeze Mage or pre-nerf Patron. 

 

Ah not really. The only time I tried playing paladin was when I tried making a paladin dragon deck pre LOE. Currently I am trying to farm a few tgt packs to get MC to give secret pally a try. Cant talk make a judgement till I've tried it. All these secret pally is OP and broken posts make me wanna try it more lol. I played with oil rogue quite a bit, but got a little disappointed when the deck did not get a lot post TGT and they remained stuck with that archetype. (it is still one of my strongest decks so far) Raptor rogue does seem fun and ive been trying it casually. I did forget all about murloc paladin. so I guess most classea do have more than one archetypes, but it still seems some are more prevailant or stronger than the other. I cant imagine how they would balance it so all classes and archetypes are equal.

 

What I actually was saying about tech cards was only as an example that certain cards have gained the status of "must include" while making a deck. Again i could be wrong about this since I only consider myself an amateur player, but everytime i try to make a unique deck on my own, one of the already existing archetypes, just proves to be the best case.

[positiv2 953]

Blizzard is trying to make new rogue archetypes and popularize the unpopular ones. That's why they released Raptor to make a new archetype, released Tomb Pillager to make miracle popular again and pit snake to... I don't really know to be honest. The raptor was semi-successful and I hope they will continue to release new card to synergise well with it. I like the deck, too.

Sad thing about most card games: they are too complex to be perfectly balanced. You change a build to have more answers to a specific deck, the deck becomes less popular and things start to get out of hand. 

[batanete 28]

Unless they completely revamp the class, I just don't see a deck like raptor rogue working at the competitive level. It just goes against the nature of the class. You want to be playing swing turns with a million spells and tempo cards, not playing a minion focused strategy.

 

The deck is fun to play though.

[Valkyr 55]

Funny how the new priest death rattle discover card would've synergised really well with raptor... atleast in my head! And if they release enough cards along a particular theme, I don't see why rogue cannot be different from what it is about right now...

Personally I would like to see some of the other new rogue cards from TgT find a place in competitive decks. Beneath the grounds, Burgle and the new legendary come to mind. Even gallywix is a real fun card but haven't seen him being used in any ladder deck.

[positiv2 953]

Beneath the Grounds was probably aimed for Control Rogue and Mill Rogue. Sadly, control rogue doesn't have enough good cards to be "real" right now and BtG doesn't fit into mill because if you burn the Ambush, it doesn't activate. 

Burgle is just a card draw and although it is an interesting card, it is not good enough to be used in any conventional deck. 

Anub'arak synergises well with Raptor, but he is too slow and when he gets silenced, it has almost no value. It probably wouldn't be a thing even in control rogue. 

Gallywix is an interesting Legendary as well. I believe he used to be played in Control Rogue. So maybe if more cards were to enrich control rogue, it could become viable and finally see some competitive play. Every expansion brings a new strong deck (rattle hunter from Naxx, mech mage from GvG, patron from BrM, secret pally from TGT and renolock from LoE). Maybe control rogue will be the next king of the meta.

[Shadis86 1]

Raptor rogue works if you use the lower cost desthrattles and not boom/Sylvanas/fuegen. I won 6 games by turn 7 yesterday. Yea a lot of it has to do with draws. But a copied egg proc, then cold blooding said egg to basically make 4 4 power minions by turn 4 (coin included) is pretty insane

[positiv2 953]

Raptor rogue works if you use the lower cost desthrattles and not boom/Sylvanas/fuegen. I won 6 games by turn 7 yesterday. Yea a lot of it has to do with draws. But a copied egg proc, then cold blooding said egg to basically make 4 4 power minions by turn 4 (coin included) is pretty insane

You don't even have to coin it if you have another 2/3-drop. The best scenario would be turn 1 coin Egg, turn 2  Egg, turn 3 raptor, turn 4 raptor and cold blood. This leaves you with a 4/2, 3/4, 3/4 and a 0/2 and they all spawn 4/4s. Sadly for raptor rogue, luckily for all others, this doesn't happen very often.

[Shadis86 1]

It's my highest win rate deck right now at about 10-2 roughly. I moved from rank 13 to rank 8 with it over two days. I had one or two wins from other classes, but raptor rogue has been the workhorse

[Valkyr 55]

Beneath the Grounds was probably aimed for Control Rogue and Mill Rogue. Sadly, control rogue doesn't have enough good cards to be "real" right now and BtG doesn't fit into mill because if you burn the Ambush, it doesn't activate. 

Burgle is just a card draw and although it is an interesting card, it is not good enough to be used in any conventional deck. 

Anub'arak synergises well with Raptor, but he is too slow and when he gets silenced, it has almost no value. It probably wouldn't be a thing even in control rogue. 

Gallywix is an interesting Legendary as well. I believe he used to be played in Control Rogue. So maybe if more cards were to enrich control rogue, it could become viable and finally see some competitive play. Every expansion brings a new strong deck (rattle hunter from Naxx, mech mage from GvG, patron from BrM, secret pally from TGT and renolock from LoE). Maybe control rogue will be the next king of the meta.

 

I know its is off topic but they should really change the mechanic for beneath the grounds so that ambush's affect happens before the burn and the opponent still draws the new card. That way you aren't increasing the opponents deck, not making it counterproductive for milling. I don't know why it cant be possible, just saw a video where shadow madness and the TgT rogue legendary interaction caused the player to get 12 cards in their hand instead of burning.

 

 I believe blizzard said they did not want mill to be viable because they say its not fun for the opponent. I disagree. Variety in win conditions to me is always more fun than all my games being about trading minions and fighting for board control. We still have freeze mage and fatigue warriors and grinder/fatigue priests. I find those entombing priests who just sit there doing nothing but stealing your stuff waiting for you to draw out all your cards to be way more annoying. even more annoying than secret paladins. (see i made it relevant to topic!) At least Brann has some love for mill rogue.

[positiv2 953]

Having more than 10 cards in your hand is probably not how it's supposed to work. Also, the Ambush card reads "When you draw this, summon a 4/4 Nerubian for your opponent. Draw a card.", so if you don't draw the card and discard it instead, it should not trigger. That means it works as intended.

Decks you should use against mill rogues: face, fast midrange. That's it. If mill rogue gets popular, people will start playing face decks even more (which did happen after the release of 2nd LoE). Is that what you want? I definitely do not. 

[Valkyr 55]

Well I don't mean have 50% of the ladder be mill. Just because something becomes ladder viable doesn't mean it has to be incredibly popular. Also, If rock becomes popular, it will result in more paper, which will result in more scissors which will result in more rock. You just gotta believe :P

[positiv2 953]

When something becomes viable it does mean it will be popular. Luckily for  a short period of time. This was seen when TGT and LoE were released: more beast druid, more beast hunter, more secret pally (which lasts up to now), more dragon decks. 

RPS is not a great example because there are no sites about RPS's meta and you can't netdeck. If secret pally becomes popular, then freeze mage becomes popular AND control priest becomes popular AND aggro shaman becomes popular, which will result in midrange druid becoming popular AND murloc pally more popular and so on and on. Hearthstone is just too complex.

[Valkyr 55]

But that's my point. in a room where everyone is popular, no one is popular! on the flip side, all decks are made equal, some are more equal than others, if you catch my drift ;)

 

In any case I feel the more win styles there are, whether it is OTK, mill, snowball, aggro, minion burst, spell burst, delay,(death by "dont wanna deal with so many these secrets")... the more interesting the game would be, rather than just board control and trade until win. 

[positiv2 953]

Actually, the first tier is the most played deck, the second tier are the counter decks and usually the second most played decks. The third tier would be decks to counter counterdecks and there are way less people in this tier. Then there's the rest, not that popular decks. This means Secret Pally is the most played, Freeze mage and Control Priest are the second most played decks and then there are a lot of decks. This seems to be accurate representation of current meta.

"More equal" in the Orwell's way? Yes, in that case I do.

My problem with mill is that you you lose just by having a wrong deck. You play Handlock? Wrong. You play any sort of control deck? Wrong. You play any kind of combo deck? Wrong. You play a midrange deck? You win. You play aggro? You win by default. You can fight against the other types of decks, even if you have a wrong deck. But if you face mill rogue, your deck and rogue's luck is what decides.

[Valkyr 55]

Ah I get what you mean now. It makes sense to me.

[Shadis86 1]

Ok I've play tested my dragon priest against numerous secret pallys over the past few days and it definitely destroys them. About an 80% win rate.

2x power word:shield

2x cleric

2x twilight whelp

2x shadow word pain

2x wyrmresr agent

Shrinkmeister

Brann bronzebeard

Shadow word: death

2x twilight guardian

2x holy nova

2x blackwing corruptor

2x azure drake

2x lightbomb

2x cabal shadow priest

2x entomb

Dr boom

Chromaggus

Ysera

Save lightbomb for once you pop all the challengers secrets. Use holy nova for the juggler/muster combo. Cabal is great at stealing the minibot. Pain the secret keeper or early minibot. Entomb the tirion and boom. Your early dragon board presence should stall to turn 6 at which time the game is well in hand. Save brann for one of your dragon battle cries (corruptor for 6!!)

If you use it let me know how it works for you! It is heavily based off the deck here but I added brann and chromaggus