5.4 Demonology Tips and Quirks

[gahhda 95]

If the DPS loss is minimal, why not always go with Imp Swarm to make the opener easier? You generate more DF and they're all buffed by DS and your plethora of temporary buffs, including potion.

That wasnt math proving glyph > no glyph, that was math proving that delaying glyph for DS > using glyph on cd.

Its implied that the glyph is better :3. Marginally, of course. The higher the ilvl gets, the more dps you get from both A. Using the glyph and B. Delaying for dark soul.

And, every single top warlock I've ever talked to or armoried runs imp swarm, if thats any clue.

Edited April 23, 2013 by gahddo

[Zagam 1,982]

I'm considering it, Omaric. I knew the difference was marginal to minimal at most, and Gahddo basically confirmed it for me that regardless of BiS gear or not, the gain in Imp Swarm can be an increase, but it also can be a decrease. It's just another thing to add to the rotation when Dark Soul comes off CD when using Grim of Service. That's a busy ass burst rotation there, but worth it. With Grim of Sac, it's just Dark Soul + Imp Swarm. The reason I want the Perfect Aim proc at the beginning (I, too, tell my group that I'm going to AFK the last trash pack to boost my DPS...they bought it when they saw the meters) is because of pre-pot, Dark Soul, Tempus, etc...basically all the procs you will ever get. By using Doom twice here, with the EA glyph, you're looking at 2:15 of a MEGA 100% Crit Doom. I think not getting Perfect Aim in the first 5 seconds hurts you dramatically. I may use Imp Swarm just to play with it, but I don't see it being a big difference either way.

[gahhda 95]

If you're interested in the Imp Swarm Breakpoints mentioned above, this simple formula will give you them:

h = x * 0.2

x = the number of wild imps you want to fit in between the imp swarm and dark soul cooldown gap

h = the haste required, in decimal format

Put simply, its every 20%. I can give more daunting math on this if requested, but its just a bunch of long algebra manipulation.

To calculate the haste rating required without raid buff, for reforging or whatever:

(( h + 1 ) / 1.05 - 1 ) * 100 * 425 = haste rating required

The 1st breakpoint is: 6071.4285714285714285714285714286

The 2nd breakpoint is: 14166.666666666666666666666666667

The 3rd breakpoint is: 22261.904761904761904761904761905

Obviously the 3rd is impossible right now, could possibly become viable next tier though.

I'm considering it, Omaric. I knew the difference was marginal to minimal at most, and Gahddo basically confirmed it for me that regardless of BiS gear or not, the gain in Imp Swarm can be an increase, but it also can be a decrease. It's just another thing to add to the rotation when Dark Soul comes off CD when using Grim of Service. That's a busy ass burst rotation there, but worth it. With Grim of Sac, it's just Dark Soul + Imp Swarm. The reason I want the Perfect Aim proc at the beginning (I, too, tell my group that I'm going to AFK the last trash pack to boost my DPS...they bought it when they saw the meters) is because of pre-pot, Dark Soul, Tempus, etc...basically all the procs you will ever get. By using Doom twice here, with the EA glyph, you're looking at 2:15 of a MEGA 100% Crit Doom. I think not getting Perfect Aim in the first 5 seconds hurts you dramatically. I may use Imp Swarm just to play with it, but I don't see it being a big difference either way.

Again...that math wasn't to prove glyph > no glyph.

I did that math a long while ago, and I don't remember what the result was, but it was like +/- 1% dps either way. That math ALSO ASSUMED proper usage of imp swarm, aka delaying for dark soul.

If you remove delaying for dark soul from the equation, imp swarm actually falls about 1% below no glyph. We're arguing semantics here really, but imp swarm is better for controlled burst, and its also better for the opener.

So, if it makes your life easier, and it can *situationally* increase your dps, why not do it?

Also, if all of those things would still be up ~5-7 seconds later, when you get the lucky perfect aim proc with ~400 demonic fury when you're ALREADY IN META spamming ToC. If it procs IMMEDIATELY then you have to pop into meta with so little DF that you'll probably end up falling out of it even with imp swarm going.

Edited April 27, 2013 by gahhda

[Zagam 1,982]

So if we considered Haste breakpoints, wouldn't we want to stop at the 2nd additional Doom tick under Bloodlust since we're essentially achieving that with Tempus Repit now? Which is (correct me if I'm wrong) 8093 Haste rating? However, Doom gains a 2nd tick without Bloodlust at 13153, so I would think the 14167 Haste threshold for Imp Swarm would include the 2nd Doom tick making it the absolute Haste ceiling for Demonology this tier. In fact, if you could get to the 22k range next tier, it still might not make sense to give up the additional 8k Mastery rating you could stack. For those not in BiS gear, might it be recommended to push for the 8093, push the rest into Mastery, use the Imp Swarm glyph, and delay IS until DS is up? Higher Mastery would generate more damage from the Imps. I know secondary stats usually don't mean a lot, but when you get into values that do a lot more than give an additional DoT tick, things start cranking up in my mind.

[Zagam 1,982]

Also, I noticed with the EA glyph last night, ToC wouldn't push Corruption past 29 seconds. When using Pandemic and manually applying Corruption, I could get it to 40 seconds. Perhaps a bug where Meta Touch of Chaos doesn't allow Corr to go past the un-EA glyphed Corruption via Pandemic? Anyone else seeing this? To test, cast Corruption twice. It should go from 25 seconds up to 39/40 seconds. Compare that to the max value obtained via Touch of Chaos. Finding it troubling knowing I might have to cast Corruption more often to get it to that super high duration. Under normal play, EA wouldn't benefit my Corruption at all except to nerf the damage by 20% since the increased duration isn't happening.

[gahhda 95]

What the sim actually does for unerring procs is Corruption -> hog (if availabe) -> meta + doom -> Soulfire (if > cast time and hog gcd wasnt used) Manually refreshing the corruption ensures it gets the full 150% duration 100% crit chance. But yes, thats a bug that needs to be addressed. EA changes breakpoints, if you remember: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0ArvBGuF9uBzKdEpuSkFBZVU3TzRqREtTeEJhQzZFZHc#gid=7 Throw your attention to the demonology sections doom and doom (everlasting). I've slightly modified brusalk's original spreadsheet for those section. Because of how unerring vision works, doom breakpoints become much much less valuable because ticks get clipped throughout fights depending on your RNG. The real breakpoint in simc where mastery >> haste is actually at the 14167 wild imp breakpoint mentioned above.

Edited August 16, 2013 by gahhda

[Zagam 1,982]

So moar Haste til we bleed Haste this tier. Roger. That was my original assumption.

[Sifon 25]

So about that saving Imp Swarm for Dark Soul idea, lets say I used Imp Swarm at start with Tempus Repit and Bloodlust, cooldown is 48 seconds. Should I delay Imp Swarm for 72 seconds?

[gahhda 95]

So about that saving Imp Swarm for Dark Soul idea, lets say I used Imp Swarm at start with Tempus Repit and Bloodlust, cooldown is 48 seconds. Should I delay Imp Swarm for 72 seconds?

The only case where you'd use it again is if the CD will be up before/when DS comes off cd. Lets say you have BiS, 40% haste buffed exactly, cd of imp swarm is 85.7143 seconds.

120 - 85.7143 = 34.2857

120 / 34.2857 = 3.5 - 1 = 2.5, 2.5 / 1.4 = 1.7857142857142857142857142857143 haste multiplier FROM PROCS.

So, the only cases where this can happen are very very limited.

1.3 (bloodlust) * 1.3 (tempus repit) = 1.69, so we still need another 1.0566356720202874049027895181741 to achieve that goal, net result being you either need to:

A. BL + Meta + Troll racial

B. BL + Meta + Haste trinket proc (2408 haste increase requirement)

C. BL + Meta + Lifeblood (alchemy ability + 2880 haste)

D. Some alternate universe where you have two haste trinket procs, meta, lifeblood, and a haste pot (teehee)

Basically, the only case this will happen is at pull. But, if that case does happen, then yes, use it a second time. Thats also considering you're stacking that much haste, and you have the gear to even allow you to do so.

Edited August 16, 2013 by gahhda

[Zagam 1,982]

What about Bloodlust + Meta + Troll Racial + Volatile Talisman (8800 Haste for 20 sec)? That's how this guy rolls.

[Sifon 25]

Btw, Sparkuggz is a player who I always respected and he made a video recently that states you should use your Imp Swarm with haste procs as much as you can. Doesn't say anything about Dark Soul. I'm getting confused to be honest even tho difference is minimal.

Video Link:

[Zagam 1,982]

So only pop Imp Swarm with a Haste proc? Once I get rid of Talisman, then I'll only watch for Tempus Repit. I wonder now if it's more valuable to:

1) Use Imp Swarm on CD and use Haste procs to expedite the CD. Aka, if Imp Swarm is off CD and Tempus Repit procs, use Imp Swarm regardless of how far Dark Soul is away? What if Dark Soul comes off CD just as Tempus Repit goes away? Which is more valuable?

2) Use Imp Swarm on CD but ENSURE that Imp Swarm is available when DS comes off CD. This would require a decision if Sifon's case where his Imp Swarm comes off CD, but has 60+ seconds to wait for Dark Soul. Does he wait for Dark Soul or use Imp Swarm on the very next meta proc?

I would think that you would use Imp Swarm on CD if using it on CD with haste procs allowed you to get off an extra Imp Swarm that you might pass up because you waited until Dark Soul was up. Is an extra Imp Swarm worth more than a buffed one? Methinks yes.

Now that I see that you can manipulate the CD of Imp Swarm, I think this is one of those abilities (like Hand of Guldan) that if used correctly can be a HUGE DPS opportunity gain. The bad part of this is the strong possibility of having only 1 or 2 imps up through Dark Soul, but this would be horrid RNG and likely wouldn't happen, but it could. The decision would come down to a scenario where Imp Swarm comes off CD, Tempus Repit is live, but Dark Soul is 15 seconds away...what do you do? I'd pop Imp Swarm and use Dark Soul as soon as it was available to buff the Imps that are currently out.

[Cruzan 71]

Also, I noticed with the EA glyph last night, ToC wouldn't push Corruption past 29 seconds. When using Pandemic and manually applying Corruption, I could get it to 40 seconds. Perhaps a bug where Meta Touch of Chaos doesn't allow Corr to go past the un-EA glyphed Corruption via Pandemic? Anyone else seeing this? To test, cast Corruption twice. It should go from 25 seconds up to 39/40 seconds. Compare that to the max value obtained via Touch of Chaos. Finding it troubling knowing I might have to cast Corruption more often to get it to that super high duration. Under normal play, EA wouldn't benefit my Corruption at all except to nerf the damage by 20% since the increased duration isn't happening.

Have you noticed if this bug still applies the damage reduction to corruption? Seems like a raw deal if does. Might be hard to test, but it could be a good thing if the dmg reduction isn't being applied considering the increased time you're spending in meta with all this DF regen. Edited April 23, 2013 by Cruzan

[gahhda 95]

The video he's specifically talking about THE OPENER. You want to make sure all your haste stuff is up before your wild imp in THE OPENER because it can lead to said situation I presented a few posts ago, where you end up with an extra imp swarm between the first and the DS cooldown.

If he's using it off CD with haste, then I'd hate to be the guy to tell one of the best warlocks in the world that he's doing it wrong. No combination of time to dark soul + tempus repit results is a gain in simc.

The current line, which will be committed shortly, is:

actions+=/imp_swarm,if=buff.dark_soul.up|(cooldown.dark_soul.remains>(120%(1%spell_haste)))

Lines it up with darksoul, or your haste is high enough that 120 ( the cd of imp swarm) divided by said haste is less than the cooldown on dark soul.

Simply put, the best way to reduce RNG is to just tell the sim to use it the same way everytime unless it can game an additional imp swarm from it. Like I explained in both of the super long math posts...you lose 15% imps overall, but gain more than 15% damage per imp.

-edit- Also, I'm an idiot:

actions+=/imp_swarm,if=buff.dark_soul.up|(cooldown.dark_soul.remains>(120%(1%spell_haste)))|time_to_die<32

+1k dps over the old line...yay time_to_die clause.

Edited April 23, 2013 by gahddo

[ookingdooker 0]

Does haste increase pet's fel energy regeneration rate?

Edited April 23, 2013 by ookingdooker

[Zagam 1,982]

Yeah, I just don't see many opportunites where Imp Swarm comes off CD and will incur a CD less than the time remaining on Dark Soul if it was just used together. I think someone said the theoretical best Imp Swarm CD would be 48 seconds with the stars alligned perfectly (Bloodlust + Tempus Repit + Berserking + maybe trinket?) Since that will NEVER allign up again aside from the start of a fight, shouldn't it be pretty safe to say the absolute rule is to use it with Dark Soul?

[Zagam 1,982]

Does haste increase pet's fel energy regeneration rate?

Wrong Imp. Demonology's Wild Imps come loaded with 100 Fel Energy and spend 10 per Felbolt. The Imp you mention is the summonable one, and we don't use him as Demonology.

[Cruzan 71]

Mmkay so I tested it and with out procs or anything Corr ticks for 2550 up to 40 sec duration. Pop in to Meta, ToC, and the duration instantly drops to 29s and still ticks for 2550. Bummer.

[Sifon 25]

Yeah, I just don't see many opportunites where Imp Swarm comes off CD and will incur a CD less than the time remaining on Dark Soul if it was just used together. I think someone said the theoretical best Imp Swarm CD would be 48 seconds with the stars alligned perfectly (Bloodlust + Tempus Repit + Berserking + maybe trinket?) Since that will NEVER allign up again aside from the start of a fight, shouldn't it be pretty safe to say the absolute rule is to use it with Dark Soul?

It was with only Tempus Repit + Bloodlust, With Berserking it goes down to 40 seconds, I forgot to add that up even though I'm a troll. TR and BL lining is not rare as it seems I think.

[JvChequer 43]

I fell kinda stupid in this whole Imp Swaem discussion, so....the glyph it's or it is not a DPS gain with full haste gear ~14k ?

[Zagam 1,982]

Wow, using Touch of Chaos returns the duration to 29 seconds? That DEFINITELY has to be an unintended event. I'll talk to a GM and post about it in the mechanics forums tonight.

[Cruzan 71]

As does Void Ray.

[ookingdooker 0]

Wrong Imp. Demonology's Wild Imps come loaded with 100 Fel Energy and spend 10 per Felbolt. The Imp you mention is the summonable one, and we don't use him as Demonology.

I know, i was asking if haste increases the fel energy regeneration of all pets. I'm not talking about wild imps.

[Cruzan 71]

So for the short term until this issue is addressed would it be best to react to PA procs by applying doom accordingly, then pop OUT of Meta and apply corruption manually for a fully pandemic'd/crit Corr. Or does casting a ToC 1-2x make up for the 11s we lose?

[Zagam 1,982]

I would think refreshing Corruption in Meta would overpower the caster form Corruption. A GCD to extend Corr from 29 seconds to 43 seconds is wasted since with EA glyph, Corr hits like a wet noodle. It's there for your Demonic Fury generation. As much as you'll be bouncing into Meta, you should automatically be refreshing Corruption anyways.