5.4 Demonology Tips and Quirks

[Zagam 1,982]

I know, i was asking if haste increases the fel energy regeneration of all pets. I'm not talking about wild imps.

Haste increases each pet's energy resource.

[Calenthaurin 1]

I fell kinda stupid in this whole Imp Swaem discussion, so....the glyph it's or it is not a DPS gain with full haste gear ~14k ?

Well, the whole thread is now confusing (because later posts actually contradict the original post, which is normal somehow (that's the principe of debats and discussion:p)

To summarize a bit what i understood:

- Glyph of imp swarm is only a dps loss if you use it on CD. I is sort of an "equal" dps if you pop it every CD at low Haste, but is become better when you wait and align it with Dark Soul, especially when you are close to "imp haste caps" (calculated by Gahddo as 6072 / 14167 and 22261 (before raid buff).

- Another interesting "cap" is the Doom one, sitting at 8094 with Glyph of everlasting affliction (13153 without)

- Stat weight seems more and more to balance toward Haste until "personally targetted" cap > mastery = Haste > crit.

Crit falling off even further down when you get Leishen magic trinket, as the main bonus of crit for us being doom, and this is completely solved by this jewel.

- Also appear that to make the Lei Shen Trinket even better, glyph of everlasting affliction sounds great, as it allow more time for the trinket to proc, while you doom crit still produce wild imps like a (easter) bunny. This glyph is also nice pre- lei shen when you got to multidot.

I'ld like to add 1 thing:

On Jin'rokh, you can also use the imp: just use his ability called "flee" when standing yourself in the pool, it will get the buff:)

For the rest, I'm pretty sure grimoires are a personal prefernce, even for demo, even if I'm thinking that at high haste lvl and leishen's trinket, sacrifice might overcome the other two (basically when wild imps total damages are at least or higher than your pet total damages, because oS also buf your wild imp.

If any of the heavy theoricrafter wanna correct me, pls do I thanks all of you for making your research public btw

Must say that demo lock, due to the cascade way of working of the stats and spell, might be one of the most complicated class around:p (but most fun I recon )

Edited April 25, 2013 by Calenthaurin

[Zagam 1,982]

I think you nailed it. Yeah, theorycrafting is confusing especially when you get extra ideas thrown in, but with some time and work, usually the optimal decision is decided.

[vladMTL 1]

so many things, so many new tricks lately ... maybe a rewrite of the compendium for demo nublocks such as myself is in place Zagam whenever and if you'll ever be bored @ work like sometimes I am

what say you boss ?

[Zagam 1,982]

I try to keep that monster up to date the best I can. I'll do some work today.

[Zagam 1,982]

Massive update done to guide to include Unerring Vision of Lei Shen information, talent selections, spell priorities, glyph choices, and Unerring Vision of Lei Shen opener. Going to add tooltips to guide now.

[Vestion 8]

Thanks for the update on the guide, I was reading what was going on with the discussion on imp swarm, and I have never seen demo as a spec that complex, but this has definitely changed my opinion on that, even more so it may replace destro for me, as it seems with the lei shen trinket and some skill it can out-dps it.

I do have a question about soulfire in demo form though. You say its a very minor dps gain, but doesn't that still mean its a dps gain? I mean, even if its something stupid like 100, I am wondering if infact using as many molten core procs as you can in demo and then using ToC between would technically be a dps gain. Not to mention, now that we are all using imp swarm, dosnt it mean you can stay in meta longer and so soulfire wont cause as much of a dent in DF as before?

Thanks for a great guide again :)

[Zagam 1,982]

I fight with the decision to use Soulfire when not under Dark Soul in Meta all the time. I basically gauge it by the boss's HP. I tend to want to use Soulfire in caster form for the increased generation of Demonic Fury, but not so much that I have to Life Tap. If the boss's HP is almost gone, I'll disregard mana, and Demonic Fury, whichever runs out first. Using Soulfire under Dark Soul is important. It's the decision to use charges in Meta or in caster form that I have a hard to saying which is better.

[Vestion 8]

I can see why, but though now that I think about it, soulfire might be better for caster form as it generates a lot of DF. If the difference really is only around 100 dps, then wouldn't it be a dps increase to deal a slight amount less in meta but have more DF generating in caster form? I suppose you have already thought about that though.

[Cruzan 71]

Is imp swarm going to be a staple for both single-target and multi-target fights? Might seem like a dumb question, but I haven't seriously tried Demo/Unerring on single target yet, pretty much only on council (51st rank in LFR without the glyph woot!). I know I'm only ranking because of the low amount of demo locks doing that fight in LFR, but its still interesting. I haven't tinkered with the glyph yet since I enjoy having one less thing to worry about while I practice reacting to PA procs plus my 4pc t14 makes it awkward, but will incorporate it here soon to mess around with it.

Without any math thoughts swimming around my head, intuitively it would seem Imp Swarm would be awesome single target since the amount of imps out on average will be less than multi-target fights, so getting a guaranteed 5+ imp empowered by DS on cooldown is nice, but on fights like council where you have 15+ out almost the whole fight the value of Imp Swarm would go down slightly. I wouldn't doubt that on fights that have a hero/BL on the opener imp swarm takes the cake every time due to the reduced CD off the bat.

I don't know, just something I was curious about I guess. Thanks for redoing the OP Zagam! I guess another random question would be what your opener is like on multi fights like council? I was caught off-guard due to a relatively instant pull from the tank in LFR so I didn't have time to plan lol.

[gahhda 95]

Is imp swarm going to be a staple for both single-target and multi-target fights? Might seem like a dumb question, but I haven't seriously tried Demo/Unerring on single target yet, pretty much only on council (51st rank in LFR without the glyph woot!). I know I'm only ranking because of the low amount of demo locks doing that fight in LFR, but its still interesting. I haven't tinkered with the glyph yet since I enjoy having one less thing to worry about while I practice reacting to PA procs plus my 4pc t14 makes it awkward, but will incorporate it here soon to mess around with it.

Without any math thoughts swimming around my head, intuitively it would seem Imp Swarm would be awesome single target since the amount of imps out on average will be less than multi-target fights, so getting a guaranteed 5+ imp empowered by DS on cooldown is nice, but on fights like council where you have 15+ out almost the whole fight the value of Imp Swarm would go down slightly. I wouldn't doubt that on fights that have a hero/BL on the opener imp swarm takes the cake every time due to the reduced CD off the bat.

I don't know, just something I was curious about I guess. Thanks for redoing the OP Zagam! I guess another random question would be what your opener is like on multi fights like council? I was caught off-guard due to a relatively instant pull from the tank in LFR so I didn't have time to plan lol.

Imps from doom =/= imps from passive/glyph

Regardless of how many imps you get off of multidotting, glyph still beats the passive.

[Cruzan 71]

So is it a DPS loss to stop doing things and count how many imps I have out at one time during a fight?

[Zagam 1,982]

Yes. Just estimate, and always report a higher number than you actually think. Works for me!

[Vestion 8]

With haste breakpoints, im wondering if people should push for the +2 ticks to HoG. HoG always falls off so it actually means something to us warlocks. Obviously corruption doesn't really matter, so there is no point going that far above 8% haste it would seem unless your going for the next HoG tick. Of course you can say haste isnt only for breakpoints, but I think you can still fit in two spells between HoGs with that much haste, and if at higher ilevs sac is a better talent then fel energy means nothing.

So, is it better to push for the second HoG tick or stick just below 10% haste? Or am I completely wrong and missing something important out?

[Calenthaurin 1]

Well, I'ld personnally target about 8100 haste : you get

- the extra imp out of the imp swarm/DS trick (only using imp swarm at the same time of DS)

- one more shadowflame tick

- and one more doom tick with glyph of everlasting affliction (good for multidotting).

Next cap would be about 15k but it would require heroic gear, so if you're only doing normal like me (still on durumu...), 8100 is a nice and reachable cap (providing the b#µù%$ breath of the hydra drops (and lei shen even better)).

[Vestion 8]

Ah, I didnt know you could control the amount of imps with haste, thanks, I will get that haste cap then.

On another note, I saw here that ToC dosnt change corruption's damage, which makes sense, but is annoying. So basically if you apply corruption while you have hero + trinket procs + CDs at the start of the fight, you just reeeally need to make sure you keep it up with ToC for the rest of the fight. Unless there is a better way of doing this?

Edited April 27, 2013 by Vestion

[Zagam 1,982]

Shadowflame won't be a high damage component in a lot of single target stuff. It's quite high when you have AoE stuff, but it's not high enough to push a Haste threshold specifically for it.

[Vestion 8]

So, what would you say is a good amount of haste to aim for? 8100?

[Zagam 1,982]

I max Haste out. If you want to set a threshold and push for more Mastery, I'd settle for 8200. I think that covers Doom and Shadowflame.

[Vestion 8]

Why max it out, can I ask?

[gahhda 95]

There is very little difference between haste and mastery outside of breakpoints. I imagine he's just gearing haste preemptively for the time when he has the gear to push the 14.1k mark.

[Vestion 8]

Makes sense. Also, I was thinking, and this has probably been already considered, but what about stacking mastery + sac? Wouldn't sac scale much better as the %'s multiply? Just an idea I had, also wild imps would hurt. A lot.

Another thing is, it says to use sac at ilev 520+, but wouldnt it make sense to use sac no matter what ilev if you are stacking haste? It would make up for the loss in mastery damage due to stacking haste. Again, these are just ideas I had, probably already been thought about.

[Calenthaurin 1]

I'ld say go for 8200 haste cap then max whichever stat you want between haste/mastery.

SAc or no SAC depends of fight: you don't want ti for say council or Tortos, but might be great in non aoe fight, if the bonus of your SAC is > than your pet damages... That is to test personnally i think, or simc it if you trust it (I don't).

[Sifon 25]

You are recommending other people that NOT to get goSac on Council? Please hang around, read a little and see the result yourself.

[gahhda 95]

You are recommending other people that NOT to get goSac on Council? Please hang around, read a little and see the result yourself.

This is the part where I'm supposed to reprimand them right? <_<.

GoSac is beyond op on council. You have 4 dooms rolling, the entire fight. Every time one of those crits (100% if you get lucky with unerring vision), you get a wild imp. GoSac increases wild imp damage by 30%. Said wild imps increase the rate of DF generation, which both means that the DF generated by pets becomes less essential, and you have more DF to dump, and all of our methods to dump DF benefit from the 30% off sacrifice. It is a very viscous cycle in which the more doom you can get out, the worse pets actually fair against GoSac. That is why they're nerfing it next patch (QQQQQQQQQQQQQQ).

Also, I love when people claim they don't trust simc, when every single guide you've read that involves stat weights is in some way derived from simc.