5.4 Demonology Tips and Quirks

[JvChequer 43]

Any tips about the difference in Reforging 8100 Haste + Mastery or Full Haste for Demonology?

With both RPPM Trinkets and LMG, Haste would output a bit even in AOE Fights?

And when should I use Soul Fire x Touch of Chaos with 2tp?

With any LMG Proc should i go for Soul fire and without procs ToC?

Edited May 6, 2013 by JvChequer

[Zagam 1,982]

I'm just pushing full Haste. I really don't think Haste > Mastery vs Haste (threshold) > Mastery > Haste is really going to create that much of a difference. I'm just used to seeing my spells cast faster as I gain more ilvl. I'm sure there's some small difference, but the value is going to be very small relative to the 170-220k DPS single target we're talking about. Each fight has its own reforging priorities, so it's usually easier to just chase the one that you're comfortable with and prefer.

[Sifon 25]

I'm playing with 8100 Haste rest into Mastery right now and I don't see any difference.

[Jenaye 9]

At what ilvl are you guys pushing full haste? I'm at 512 now and not sure if it's worth me throwing all my crit and mastery into haste quite yet.

[JvChequer 43]

I'm just pushing full Haste. I really don't think Haste > Mastery vs Haste (threshold) > Mastery > Haste is really going to create that much of a difference. I'm just used to seeing my spells cast faster as I gain more ilvl. I'm sure there's some small difference, but the value is going to be very small relative to the 170-220k DPS single target we're talking about. Each fight has its own reforging priorities, so it's usually easier to just chase the one that you're comfortable with and prefer.

In Single Target I understand that's dont make a significant difference but in AOE Fights and the need of a heavy burst on an add makes me think if full haste works well.

And about Soulfire x Touch of Chaos? Any tips?

Edited May 6, 2013 by JvChequer

[Zagam 1,982]

I think if you shift out of like 1000 rating, you lose about 2.5% Haste while gaining 1.7% increased damage in caster form and 5.1% damage in Metamorphosis. If heavy burst on an add switch is necessary often, then Mastery would start to gain appeal.

As for Soulfire vs Touch of Chaos, I'm finding with Imp Swarm, Unerring Vision, and proper use of Shadowflame that I almost always have Molten Core procs to use on Soulfire. I tend to shy away from using it in Metamorphosis unless under Dark Soul or Wushoolay's has proc'd for me or the boss/target is about to die. Haste definitely helps with the Soulfire pushing. At my 11500 Haste level, Soulfires are VERY fast, yet not under the global, with Tempus Repit procs. Touch of Chaos doesn't benefit from Haste, so you have to make lots of decisions while playing to adjust to current situations.

[JvChequer 43]

Going Full Haste, probably the Soulfire use in Meta is more attractive with any trinket/LMG proc.

For Jinrohk and Ji-kun H fights - the first ones my core will try this week - I probably don't need mastery, handle with upper nests does not evolve much AOE.

[Zagam 1,982]

If you're doing upper nests as Demo, apply Corruption to both, Doom to both, then burst one down as hard as possible while your teammate works on the other one. Shadowflame will reach both, so apply Hand of Guldan appropriately. Honestly, if you get there about 5-10 sec after the nest spawns, you'll have plenty of time.

[Santo 0]

Zagam,

You stated in the original post that at 520 ilvl single target situations should be using Sac. I decided to try it and my overall DPS is lower. I am also using EA glyph to have less RNG with the RPPM on the UVoLS trinket. Considering it procs roughly 0.5 per minute, making Dooms 3 minute duration or 4 during Bloodlust when you have 8097 Haste it could perhaps have 100% uptime on the 100% crit Dooms. My question to you is, should I be reforging for that Haste threshold? As well as using the EA glyph to lessen the RNG based off the trinket.

[Omaric 246]

^^^

Which version do you have? In a single-target situation I'm able to keep 100% crit Doom up indefinitely with EA using the LFR UVoLS. I'm starting to think I could keep it up 100% without the glyph as well. I'm also at about 10.5k haste, so that is probably helping my proc rates.

But yeah, if you aren't able to guarantee your crit Dooms, then you aren't getting the amount of Wild Imps you need to make GoSac worth it.

[Zagam 1,982]

If your DPS is going down, then you need to make sure you're prioritizing your spells correctly. Make sure you're not wasting Soulfire charges. The extra Imps should help generate higher Metamorphosis uptime. Also, make sure you're utilizing Metamorphosis uptime appropriately.

As for the Haste threshold, you're not really going to be seeing important thresholds on Doom met. You're not likely going to let it run its course if another Perfect Aim procs. Typically I disregard Affdots telling me not to refresh it. If I get a proc, I refresh it regardless since I know dry spells can make Perfect Aim not proc for quite some time. I've been able to maintain 100% Crit Dooms on single target fights with the EA glyph, so it is highly recommended. You're not looking for the Doom damage...you're looking for the proc that gives you the extra Imp.

[Santo 0]

Yeah I understand that, but I'm using the 522 UVoLS at the moment and the EA glyph getting Dooms to at max 3 minute duration, having 19% haste or 8097 cap rating for the Doom on Bloodlust makes it 4minutes, if you are BL at the start "most likely" you will have 4 minute doom crit. I have just over 8k mastery as well, reforging to haste, but gemming mastery.

[Santo 0]

I also do think Service is more controlled burst, even though the 30% Imp damage from Sac is very nice.

[Zagam 1,982]

I'm debating switching back to a bit more Mastery since I'm not taking Sacrifice as much as I used to on single target fights. Since I use Imp Swarm, I'm finding it more fun with Grimoire of Service...the playstyle is more fun to me as well. I only use Grim of Sacrifice on Ji'Kun and Council because of the fight mechanics limiting the effectiveness of the Felguard. I'll play around with it a bit this week and take some Haste out for some better boom boom pow. I've noticed my DPS on World of Logs bursts up to 500-600k initially then plateaus around 150k. Every 2 minutes, I push back to 400k for a short period of time. Demonology is definitely about peaking every 2 minutes. This playstyle will diminish on fights that end just before another burst. For example, burst will come at 0:00, 2:00, 4:00, etc. If the fight ends at 5:45 when your CDs were 15 seconds away from popping up again, you'll look worse. By contrast, if the fight ends at 6:20, you'll look a little better than your actual average throughput. Such is the way for burst-designed classes. Choose your methods appropriately.

[gahhda 95]

Yeah I understand that, but I'm using the 522 UVoLS at the moment and the EA glyph getting Dooms to at max 3 minute duration, having 19% haste or 8097 cap rating for the Doom on Bloodlust makes it 4minutes, if you are BL at the start "most likely" you will have 4 minute doom crit. I have just over 8k mastery as well, reforging to haste, but gemming mastery.

You do realize that haste decreases the duration...its impossible to have a 4 minute doom.

[Zagam 1,982]

He's likely seeing the "4m" on the debuff thinking it's 4:00 when it's actually somewhere between 3:00 and 3:59 because that's how Blizzard represents their debuffs. Debuffs never say "1m" because it goes from "2m" to 0:59 and counts down from there.

[JvChequer 43]

Glyph of EA it's a dps gain in every sort of fight because of the crit chance of proc, but, maybe with Heroic one 2/2 and proper haste, the proc chance would be enought to forget the glyph

[Zagam 1,982]

I don't think so.

I BELIEVE (rough estimate) that with 5% raid haste, the first Doom threshold is at ~3000 rating and the next is at 13000 rating. Let's assume we have 13000 rating to test that theory...(all following values are approximate)

No glyph base duration = 60 seconds (6 ticks)

No glyph max duration = 90 seconds (9 ticks)

The RealPPM system of this trinket's formula is: (1 + Haste %) * (RealPPM value) * (ilvl proc rate). Let's assume the best case scenario which involves the Heroic Thunderforged trinket. With 13000 Haste rating, you're looking at approximately 35% Haste. That said, the formula would be as such:

1.35 * 0.525 * 1.1288 = 0.800037 PPM, or 0.8 PPM which equates to approximately one proc every 75 seconds. Considering the RNG of these procs and the built in protection, it is reasonable to assume that you would see a proc within that 90 second maximum window. However, we all know how RNG works. It is also POSSIBLE that you wouldn't see a proc for 240 seconds. This creates a huge window where you would see no procs and your 100% Crit Doom uptime would be almost impossible. This is for the ABSOLUTE best case scenario for this trinket (full Haste, Heroic TF ilvl). Now, let's explore the possibilities with the glyph.

Glyph base duration = 90 seconds (9 ticks)

Glyph max duration = 135 seconds (13 ticks)

Using the above math, you can see the following comparison:

No Glyph = proc needed every 90 seconds with expected proc interval of 75 seconds

Glyph = proc needed every 135 seconds with expected proc interval of 75 seconds

While statistics can be used to estimate the expected value here, I'm rusty as all hell in statistics and can't really calculate the likelihood that you would see a proc without the glyph, but you can CLEARLY see that with the glyph, you GREATLY protect your ability to maintain 100% uptime with your Doom crits. I would estimate the likelihood of seeing a proc every 90 seconds with an expected proc rate of once every 75 seconds to be around 70%. Depending on the standard deviation of the proc rate (which is difficult to calculate because of the randomness), 90 wouldn't fall too far into the outliers meaning that a pretty significant number of occurrences would have you going past that 90 second window without seeing a proc. However, it would be my semi-educated estimate that with the glyph, you'd be seeing a proc within the 135 second window above 95% of the time. I'd be eternally grateful if some math geek could run those numbers for me to find the estimated chance of seeing a proc in 135 seconds versus 90 seconds.

On top of all these values, you're also freeing up at least 1 global to do another damaging attack than to apply an unproc'd Doom. This value multiplies in multi-target scenarios where you have multiple 100% crit Dooms on multiple targets.

Basically it comes up to this: Glyph it and forget it. It's not like you're giving up a more meaningful glyph anyways.

[Omaric 246]

Basically it comes up to this: Glyph it and forget it. It's not like you're giving up a more meaningful glyph anyways.

I feel the following glyphs all have good uses:

Healthstone

Imp Swarm

Siphon Life

Soulstone

Everlasting Affliction

Obviously using Everlasting Affliction reduces the effectiveness of Siphon Life, but I still enjoy the passive healing it provides to my team. Thinking about it though, it's definitely not as effective for Demonology as it is for Destruction (who can apply it to many targets simultaneously) or Affliction (who can do the same).

[Zagam 1,982]

Siphon Life usually goes into overhealing. It's nice, but it's uses are pretty limited unless you're CONSTANTLY taking damage (not the case this tier). I'll link some logs and analysis here in a bit to back up my claim. Healthstone is ok, but usually in a PvE situation, if healers see your HP missing and going up quickly, they will heal you making Healthstone be overhealing. I prefer my quick 20/40% jolt of HP. Soulstone can be useful, but unless you don't have a Druid, you likely won't be doing this. They can glyph it to provide 100% HP and can use Nature's Swiftness to make it an instant cast. By default, your top 3 are Imp Swarm, Everlasting, and your choice.

[JvChequer 43]

Imp Swarm, EA and Siphon Life are my main glyphs for Demo, looks like EA and Imp Swarm are pretty much DPS gain with no doubt.

And Siphon Life it's cool self-heal.

[Santo 0]

When I say "4m" that's what I mean 3:00-3:59, meaning with 8097 haste, EA glyph and bloodlust you get a "4m" Doom.

[Zagam 1,982]

Just looking at this week's pulls in regards to Siphon Life:

Heroic Jinrohk: 77.3% overhealing

Heroic Horridon: 94.7% overhealing

Heroic Council: 65.7% overhealing

Heroic Tortos: 0.0% overhealing

Heroic Megaera: 72.7% overhealing

Heroic Ji'Kun: 72.8% overhealing

Normal Durumu: 97.4% overhealing

Heroic Primordius: 85.6% overhealing (disconnected for 58 seconds and played Destruction)

Normal Dark Animus: 58.7% overhealing

Heroic Iron Qon: 45.0% overhealing

Normal Twins: 70.2% overhealing

Normal Lei Shen: 9.2% overhealing

Noted that the low overhealing fights are ones you're constantly taking damage. Tortos' overhealing gets rolled up into your absorption effect. This is why Warlocks can't die on Heroic Tortos. Iron Qon is basically loaded in P1 and P4. The rest is massive overhealing. Lei Shen does a good job of constantly throwing out raid damage. You can see from most of the other fights, we're talking some major overhealing here. Granted there aren't a ton of better options out there, so it's a staple glyph. It's just your least valuable one.

[Zagam 1,982]

When I say "4m" that's what I mean 3:00-3:59, meaning with 8097 haste, EA glyph and bloodlust you get a "4m" Doom.

Bloodlust has nothing to do with it. You're not increasing the duration of the DoT. You're increasing the speed of the ticks. The freak occurrence that makes it say "4m", which it won't do often, is where you are refreshing JUST after a tick from your previous application and apply the new application. Not only do you get the total duration if the original was below 50%, but you also get that extra 'clip' time, which is what we used to deal with (the time between the last tick and the duration running off). It's stupid, tbh, so just ignore the duration on Doom.

[Zagam 1,982]

Also, I threw in the Doom tick thresholds pulled from Brusalk's spreadsheet. Use at your own discretion.