5.4 Demonology Tips and Quirks

[JvChequer 43]

Pet twisting....oh boy, plus the 2-build with Shadow bolt filler for multi target and incinerate plus 3 dots, plus shadowflame plus soul shards.

 

 

But something I miss, moonwell chalice, that trinket with meta was just amazing.

Edited August 7, 2013 by JvChequer

[Juloroh 0]

Pet twisting....oh boy, plus the 2-build with Shadow bolt filler for multi target and incinerate plus 3 dots, plus shadowflame plus soul shards.

 

 

But something I miss, moonwell chalice, that trinket with meta was just amazing.

What you actually miss was Meta Snapshotting...That was clearly OP, i even considered using a tank trinket since it could proc of hellfire,combined with a full mastery set(off piece that i kept with only mastery gem) and moowell chalice :

Soulshifter Vortex

Doomguard snapshotting mastery + Meta Snapshotting at the pull and you were golden...nearly 300% damage in metamorphosis.

[Nytemare 2]

How was getting the full revamp and a unique feel for each spec crap?  We have amazing damage, amazing survivability, and essentially 3 different classes rolled into one.  Stuff changes...you've gotta adapt.  Warlocks in MoP >>>> Warlocks in Cataclysm.  You'd agree if you remember having to maintain WAY more things in all three specs than you do now.

Yes I agree got less to maintain - I didn't say all of it was crap, just lot of it was. changes I

was talking is given some spells back to some classes. First ROF would be useable as Demo as I hate

Hellfire - even make the aura turn ROF in a non stop one while you stayed in Meta that would be cool.

I would give destro a another dot like corruption or Agony back. For Demo I would give them spells

sooner - it hard leveling a Demo lock in mid 20's no Doom, No MC proc, NO Demonic Calling, NO Shadow Clash - or whatever the free SB is called in Meta. So either I would make those spell come between 10-15 since that the staple of Demo it seems, or I would at least give Doom to at lv 10, or make

corruption usable in Demo until they got Doom. Right now as a 18 lock one I get 700+ DF all I got

is either SB or SF and nothing else to help - SF without MC uses way 2 much DF so I just got SB

For affliction I would make all dots instant or make it will they auto apply Agony and Corruption

when they do UA - something to make the spec feel little more fun.

Also for all spec COE would Auto apply with Immolate, and Dots - or remove it from GCD. Also I would revamp it to be more useful to us when their is a rogue in the party. Hunter get Auto Hunter's Mark

why can't lock get auto COE?

[Zagam 1,982]

For Demo I would give them spells

sooner - it hard leveling a Demo lock in mid 20's no Doom, No MC proc, NO Demonic Calling, NO Shadow Clash - or whatever the free SB is called in Meta. So either I would make those spell come between 10-15 since that the staple of Demo it seems, or I would at least give Doom to at lv 10, or make

corruption usable in Demo until they got Doom. Right now as a 18 lock one I get 700+ DF all I got

is either SB or SF and nothing else to help - SF without MC uses way 2 much DF so I just got SB

 

This is purely a leveling issue.  Not all specs are fair and balanced while leveling.  Doom would be worthless.  I don't even apply Doom in 5 mans.  Your Imps accumulate while leveling, but getting them at a low level wouldn't really change anything.  All you worry about while leveling is getting to the next level.

 

 

For affliction I would make all dots instant or make it will they auto apply Agony and Corruption

when they do UA - something to make the spec feel little more fun.

Also for all spec COE would Auto apply with Immolate, and Dots - or remove it from GCD. Also I would revamp it to be more useful to us when their is a rogue in the party. Hunter get Auto Hunter's Mark

why can't lock get auto COE?

DoTs be instant?  Is this for leveling again?  The entire point of Affliction is to be able to monitor, maintain, and maximize your three DoTs.  Having them auto-apply would actually be a nerf to skilled Warlocks. 

 

Hunter's get auto-Hunter's Mark because Hunter's Mark has no AoE capability and can't be put on more than one target.  CoE can be put on multiple targets through a 0.5 GCD or Soulburned with Affliction to put it on everything in a given range.  There are only so many buffs and debuffs in the game, so not sure what you're alluding to on making it more useful.  The usefulness of having a Rogue is not having to worry about applying CoE.  It's a 5 minute duration ability...it's not costing you an arm or a leg to use. 

[Darthsoul 3]

Zagam I'm a big fan of going haste heavy sitting at around 15.4k haste, obviously mastery is stronger I know this but I like this play style. At this amount of haste should I be sac pretty much every fight?

[Sifon 25]

On fights like Tortos, Megaera or Lei Shen, having a pet always good.

[Zagam 1,982]

Going full Haste is just a mistake.  It'll compound in 5.4 when the scaling of Haste benefits decreases dramatically.  You might like the playstyle and the difference won't be massive, but I promise, you'll see better performance with a heavier Mastery build.  15.4k Haste means you're likely sitting around 6-7k Mastery which is pretty brutal.  When you separate the stats that much, you start to lose DPS.  Either go slightly heavier with Mastery or keep Mastery and Haste close.

[Merlins 0]

Going full Haste is just a mistake.  It'll compound in 5.4 when the scaling of Haste benefits decreases dramatically.  You might like the playstyle and the difference won't be massive, but I promise, you'll see better performance with a heavier Mastery build.  15.4k Haste means you're likely sitting around 6-7k Mastery which is pretty brutal.  When you separate the stats that much, you start to lose DPS.  Either go slightly heavier with Mastery or keep Mastery and Haste close.

With haste not being as good with the new rppm trinkets, might as well get used to the 8100 haste build now.

Zagam 2 questions, have you tested a crit heavy build on the PTR yet? If so do you think it's viable and second question with the change to Dark soul being 2 charges, do you think Engineering will be more beneficial being able to use it each time with the charges?

[Krazyito 521]

Sorry if this has been asked before, but I can't find a damn search thread button for this >.>.

 

I understand that Glyph of Shadow Bolt is recommended, but why?  I know that most people say that its because they can individually crit, thus being a slight dps boost.  But couldn't the opposite be true?

 

For example: (please correct me if i'm horribly off, since I always main healers and I suck at theorycrafting)

 

If shadow bolt did 3 damage total. With the glyph, each bolt does 1 damage. 

When one bolt crits, it nets 4 total damage.

 

Without the glyph, if the bolt crits it nets 6 total damage.

 

I know this stuff kinda assumes a lot of things, but I'm not sure why its recommended and how its a dps gain.

[Zagam 1,982]

With haste not being as good with the new rppm trinkets, might as well get used to the 8100 haste build now.

Zagam 2 questions, have you tested a crit heavy build on the PTR yet? If so do you think it's viable and second question with the change to Dark soul being 2 charges, do you think Engineering will be more beneficial being able to use it each time with the charges?

I don't do testing on the PTR.  The PTR has turned into guilds getting advanced knowledge on fight mechanics instead of testing things that can break.  I don't agree with that model, thus I avoid the PTR.  That said...

 

You don't need to live test a crit heavy build.  Crit is very expensive and you must ALWAYS think about what else crit does for you.  For Demonology, Critical strike rating only increases Soul Fire damage and gives you a slightly higher chance to proc Imps from Doom.  The Critical strike rating increase scaling for Soul Fire is not as good as what Mastery does, and the RNG factor of Critical strike chance for Doom makes it unappealing.  Take a look at the top 100 geared Warlocks in the world.  95 of them are using heavy Mastery builds (myself included) and that won't change.  Mastery is rock solid for Demonology.  The only trend we MIGHT see is Critical strike take over Haste, but only have we meet a threshold for Doom. 

 

Professions create some interesting scaling procs, but you have to consider all things.  Is Engineering THAT much better than Tailoring?  It's generally known that proc buffs are better than static buffs such as Enchanting and Leatherworking.   Changing professions isn't going to push you from the 90th percentile to the 99th percentile.  Also, you're tying a profession choice to a talent that may change.  I find professions to be much more enjoyable to make money off of than worry about their DPS.  Also, remember that as you go later into an expansion, professions have less and less of an effect because of stat inflation.  Engineering doesn't make a lot of money, but it sure is fun!

 

All of this is said without knowing what changes are coming numerically.  I just sit and wait to receive numbers and then I crank them out.  Then Gaddho and I talk about what we think rocks, what sucks, and we build it into what we tell you guys.  Only time will tell at this point.

 

Sorry if this has been asked before, but I can't find a damn search thread button for this >.>.

 

I understand that Glyph of Shadow Bolt is recommended, but why?  I know that most people say that its because they can individually crit, thus being a slight dps boost.  But couldn't the opposite be true?

 

For example: (please correct me if i'm horribly off, since I always main healers and I suck at theorycrafting)

 

If shadow bolt did 3 damage total. With the glyph, each bolt does 1 damage. 

When one bolt crits, it nets 4 total damage.

 

Without the glyph, if the bolt crits it nets 6 total damage.

 

I know this stuff kinda assumes a lot of things, but I'm not sure why its recommended and how its a dps gain.

I did some math on this a bit ago.  If you're relatively good with statistics, you can calculate the % chance to gain DPS via the glyph with a binomial distribution.  Without redigging the math, without the glyph, you'd either do 3 or 6 damage based on whether you crit or not.  With the glyph, you'd do 3, 4, 5, or 6 damage.  It turned out to be VERY close and essentially equal.  The DPS from the glyph is not why it's recommended.  It was because of the RPPM trinket effects that proc'd on spell hit or damaging spells.  With the glyph, each Shadow Bolt counted as two attacks instead of 1.  This increased the uptime of trinkets, theoretically, and THAT is why it was recommended.

[Nytemare 2]

This is purely a leveling issue.  Not all specs are fair and balanced while leveling.  Doom would be worthless.  I don't even apply Doom in 5 mans.  Your Imps accumulate while leveling, but getting them at a low level wouldn't really change anything.  All you worry about while leveling is getting to

the next level.

Yeah I seem to focus on leveling with Demo - have not really came up with anything for Demo at max - expect replace Soul Fire with something else maybe? - feels like a poor man version of Chaos Bolt -

100% crit but less damage

 

 

DoTs be instant?  Is this for leveling again?  The entire point of Affliction is to be able to monitor, maintain, and maximize your three DoTs.  Having them auto-apply would actually be a nerf to skilled Warlocks.

NO not for leveling - 2x instant dots and 1x cast dots just feel chunky is all - I can't really

explain a good way to fix - maybe remove GCD on them - it seems that either agony or corruption

always get manually reapplied right after UA - so to remove the GCD on them would work. Less time

you have to waste waiting on GCD more time you get to MG - at 20% not a big deal Haunt - SB+SS - DS

all you need but still.

Also speaking of SB - not allowing SB to be use if a SB is already present - no lock who never hit

soul burn again before using the last SB up by mistake.

 

Hunter's get auto-Hunter's Mark because Hunter's Mark has no AoE capability and can't be put on more than one target.  CoE can be put on multiple targets through a 0.5 GCD or Soulburned with Affliction to put it on everything in a given range.  There are only so many buffs and debuffs in the game, so not sure what you're alluding to on making it more useful.  The usefulness of having a Rogue is not having to worry about applying CoE.  It's a 5 minute duration ability...it's not costing you an arm or a leg to use.

Hunter Mark not allowed to go on more than 1 target - that due to blizz limit thinking, I'm' sorry.

For what I was talking about making COE only effect us and stack with a rogue poison so we can do

more damage. Hunter Mark only works for the Hunter - let they get the benefit from Expose Armor on

top of the benefit they get from hunter mark. IF the hunter doing lot fo element damage they now

get an extra benefit from our COE/rogue Poison. SO as you can see their only one debuff type that

helps us, while hunters can get 3.

Can't tell me you would not like COE off the GCD or to be auto applied to save you a GCD = less GCD

waiting even if it .05 sec every 5 min still a dps increase.

Also I forgot to mention I would cut down the button bloat for us - we got lot of spells that are

useless, and lot of button bloat we can do without. Like why do we need to have 3+ curses why not

one that can do everything, magic debuff - damage/casting debuff, speed debuff(affliction). My

ideas of course are still be worked out - always trying to find ways to make the class I love better.

To be honest it the only class I play - I have few alts like a warrior but they their for profession

than anything else.

[Zagam 1,982]

Also I forgot to mention I would cut down the button bloat for us - we got lot of spells that are

useless, and lot of button bloat we can do without. Like why do we need to have 3+ curses why not

one that can do everything, magic debuff - damage/casting debuff, speed debuff(affliction).

You, my friend, do not PvP, I see.  A lot of those spells you don't use in PvE come in handy in PvP.  The issues you discuss will forever be issues so long as WoW does not have a separate PvP and PvE spellbook/scaling.

[Nytemare 2]

You, my friend, do not PvP, I see.  A lot of those spells you don't use in PvE come in handy in PvP.  The issues you discuss will forever be issues so long as WoW does not have a separate PvP and PvE spellbook/scaling.

Not really - trying to get back into it - I sign up for arena season with 2 buddies just for the pet

and do try and figure out what team we could make for real - I run Destro and just made my

affliction spec to try. Cruses in PVP are use but from what I read we only use Curse of Enfee and if your

affliction you can get curse of exh - everyone I read saw weaken damage done/spell casting it more

important than a little damage buff. Still wouldn't it be nice if they just combine all the curse

into 1?

[Zagam 1,982]

5% increased magic damage, reduced casting speed, reduced melee damage done, and 70% speed reduction would be a bit overpowered.  All 3 curses have their place depending on the team you're fighting.  Enfeeblement is great against a caster heavy group that can't dispel curses (aka, no Druids or Mages).  Elements is good if you're preparing to burst someone down.  Exhaustion is crucial to keep pesky Rets and Rogues off of your balls. 

[Nytemare 2]

5% increased magic damage, reduced casting speed, reduced melee damage done, and 70% speed reduction would be a bit overpowered.  All 3 curses have their place depending on the team you're fighting.  Enfeeblement is great against a caster heavy group that can't dispel curses (aka, no Druids or Mages).  Elements is good if you're preparing to burst someone down.  Exhaustion is crucial to keep pesky Rets and Rogues off of your balls.

Not really a rogue poison can do all that or 3-4/5 at once and they don't think that OP - just saying we got a lot of button - less buttons would be nice (if we didn't have to sac abilities we use)

Edited August 15, 2013 by Nytemare

[Omaric 246]

Not really a rogue poison can do all that or 3-4/5 at once and they on't think that OP - just saying we got a lot of button - less buttons would be nice.

 

 

 

.................................................................................................

Edited August 15, 2013 by Omaric

[rhino 1]

My raid group is starting to get close to getting some of the ToT HC bosses now.  I know this is more or less moot at this point, but I am now getting 535 gear, and trying to figure out how I want to shuffle my gear around.  I think it would be of assistance if I better knew how demo warlocks value further upgrades as we move into 5.4.  Here is hoping someone knows much more about the subject than I do:

 

1)  Crit?  I know sims are only part of the picture, but even in 5.3 when I have my crit extremely low, my sims show it to be surprisingly decent per stat point.  With the loss of UVoLS (and I remember reading crit demo did pretty good during one of the ptr builds??)., does demo start to look at crit as not so 'meh'?

 

2)  Demo 4 piece of course is just 'ok'.  But what about 2 piece. Do folks anticipate dropping (both 530 and 543) 2 piece t15 for 2 pieces of non-tier siege loot?  Maybe its still too early to know?  Anyways, thanks for any thoughts on the subject.

[Zagam 1,982]

Crit is not of value at all.  For any spec.  Demo 4pc isn't worth passing up the increased item level.  The 2pc shouldn't be dropped until you're rocking the 2pc T16 at least. 

[JvChequer 43]

Looking at Simulationcraft I never realized that Imp generates more fury than Felguard.

 

It's a shame their dps is so low.

[Zagam 1,982]

Added a BiS listing and updated the guide to 5.4.  New website model is giving me issues updating the title, so I'll do that ASAP.  I'll be modeling gems, reforges, etc for the BiS guide very soon.  Also added a section on the importance of the tier bonuses.

[Zagam 1,982]

Took a stab at a BiS profile including gems, enchants, reforges, etc.  I'm pretty happy with it, but I'm sure someone can squeeze another 1% Mastery or something out of it. 

[Zagam 1,982]

Added various Haste ratings needed to hit threshold with various Amplification trinkets.

[Rakupenda 15]

Added various Haste ratings needed to hit threshold with various Amplification trinkets.

Your doom is quoted using the Everlasting Affliction glyph.

[Zagam 1,982]

Thanks for that catch.  Updated, and thankfully it changes nothing!

[Nytemare 2]

Thanks for that catch.  Updated, and thankfully it changes nothing!

 

where is this profile at maybe I over looked it - was it the whole BIS list and reforge at stuff? You did a nice job - 2 bad it all heroic gear would love to know if I could reach all those stats with LFR gear. 112% damage increase in Meta if I read that right sounds sexy

 

 

 

As of 5.4, Unerring Vision has been modified to the point where it is no longer the best possible trinket for Demonology.  It no longer procs at the beginning of fights with consistency and its proc rate no longer super inflated by Haste.

 

Maybe I missed something here as well, but wasn't all the changes to make sure trinkets proc at the start of a pull? Something on the lines as it was big dps lose if you were unlucky to get procs at the start like others. This is to make sure everyone get procs and power at start since most pop hero at that time? At least what I was reading made it sound like trinkets would proc at the start now on.

Edited August 24, 2013 by Nytemare