5.4 Demonology Tips and Quirks

[Zagam 1,982]

where is this profile at maybe I over looked it - was it the whole BIS list and reforge at stuff? You did a nice job - 2 bad it all heroic gear would love to know if I could reach all those stats with LFR gear. 112% damage increase in Meta if I read that right sounds sexy

 

 

Maybe I missed something here as well, but wasn't all the changes to make sure trinkets proc at the start of a pull? Something on the lines as it was big dps lose if you were unlucky to get procs at the start like others. This is to make sure everyone get procs and power at start since most pop hero at that time? At least what I was reading made it sound like trinkets would proc at the start now on.

BiS profile is on the first page of the guide.  Section 13 or 14 I believe.  The changes to RPPM trinkets is so they DON'T proc at the pull.  You read and interpreted it completely backwards.  The RPPM trinkets will have a timer of 120 seconds set on them, so it'll be as if you had been out of combat for only 2 minutes instead of the more usual 4-5 minutes now. 

[Nytemare 2]

BiS profile is on the first page of the guide.  Section 13 or 14 I believe.  The changes to RPPM trinkets is so they DON'T proc at the pull.  You read and interpreted it completely backwards.  The RPPM trinkets will have a timer of 120 seconds set on them, so it'll be as if you had been out of combat for only 2 minutes instead of the more usual 4-5 minutes now. 

 So they proc only 120 sec into the pull only - if that the case, it just another example that shows blizz doesn't listen or know what they doing now adays. That way to long to wait to start your full rotation. Proc at the start was fine and needs to be reverted. If they worry that people will have an unlucky streak than make all trinkets auto proc on ever boss pull at the start. Can't be to hard to program.

 

check for combat

if combat = boss proc trinkets

else proc trinkets after 120 sec

 

this is just a pseudocode but get the point how it can be done

[Darthsoul 3]

Your trinket can still proc in the pull but is is very unlikely with a trinket like Uvols. It is more likely it will proc between the 30sec and 1 min mark. It's a stupid change IMO and makes reaction to trinket procs and changing rotation rapid during the fight into something of the past. But taking skill out of the game is what casuals want.

[Kazistrasz 216]

 So they proc only 120 sec into the pull only - if that the case, it just another example that shows blizz doesn't listen or know what they doing now adays. That way to long to wait to start your full rotation. Proc at the start was fine and needs to be reverted. If they worry that people will have an unlucky streak than make all trinkets auto proc on ever boss pull at the start. Can't be to hard to program.

 

check for combat

if combat = boss proc trinkets

else proc trinkets after 120 sec

 

this is just a pseudocode but get the point how it can be done

First, you would be surprised how hard "simple" things are to program, especially in such a complex coded environment. Most of the bugs they have to implement hot fixes for or every now and then have to stop heroic progression to fix in a fight aren't that they were programmed wrong. It's usually something somewhere else was put in and it had an unforseen affect on something seemingly unrelated in the code.

 

Second, think about it from the standpoint of the designers. Let's do an example. These numbers won't be wholely realistic, but they'll be close enough. How long should a fight take? Say you want a fight that should take average normal mode (with maybe a few heroics) guilds 8-minutes. We'll assume 10-man here, and just say that we'll assume about 150k DPS single target, and 150k for tanks + a possible disc priest. That's a total of 900k per sec. That averages to 432M health on the boss.

 

You want a three-phase encounter where the first phase has a significant amount of raid damage to help put strain on the healers. Something like Crackle from T11 where you can't avoid it the damage, but on a timer rather than pushing with the boss's health. Something that will drain healer mana. Let's say you want that to be about a third of the fight and the most intense part of the fight, so we go with 65% for a transition. Maybe your second phase has stuff you have to avoid being hit by on an individual basis, and maybe something that chases a player around here and there, so you take off a little bit of your health number since they won't get the same amount of DPS out but you want the same average fight length, and call it 400M (actually how about 403M because they hate even numbers on boss HP). Let's transition that at 30% into the final phase with a pretty significant soft-enrage that puts stress on the healers (a la Al'Akir's Acid Rain).

 

So you have this fight planned out, except here's the problem. The better than average guilds (not Method or even server first guilds, but maybe the guilds that are at least 10/13 now) with everything at the start are going to be doing ridiculous amounts of damage off the bat. They're already going to have a higher item level than the target audience on the fight for being previous tier's progression, so we'll assume 200k DPS for them. You're looking at them clearing the fight in a little over 6 minutes now. That first phase is 141.5M health to burn through, and is supposed to train healer mana. If everything is proccing off the start, they're gonna be doing 400k DPS on the opener for the first 30. Suddenly, they're halfway through that first phase in that first 30 seconds. If they decide they're going through it fast enough that they think they can 2-heal it, they're going to be doing that first phase in about a minute. With all CDs and everything being popped off the start, the target guild will still need about 2:30ish on this first phase.

 

The better-than-average guild's ability to take full advantage of all procs lining up right at the pull with CDs will have made what was supposed to be the most difficult part of the encounter has now trivialized the phase  and (most likely) the fight. Now, sure, it's a normal mode encounter, and we're using end-of-T15ish numbers, so we're looking at an early fight in the instance. It shouldn't be overly challenging, but it shouldn't be a cake walk unless you're one of the top guilds in the world where it's expected for you to clear normal mode in the first week with ease. So, what do you do to make the fight actually a challenge for them? Well, you could make the first phase last longer, maybe 60% instead of 65%. Maybe put in a debuff that makes a player do significantly less damage until they're healed to full or cause a certain amount of damage. Maybe make the raid-damage hit a little harder so they have to use three healers.

 

These would all solve the problem, right? Well, the target guilds who should be able to do the fight with some challenge without being overwhelmed will then be overwhelmed. The best guilds will still one-shot it the first week, and the better than average guilds will now have to take the fight seriously. But, the average guilds it was designed for will be totally decimated by it. They won't be taking full advantage of the procs lining up. If you make the first phase last longer, they'll need much more time and their healers may not be able to keep up. If you make it hit harder, their healers may not be able to keep up or maybe even do it at all. If you put in the debuff, the fight will still run on forever for the average guilds (especially because it'll take them longer to break through the debuff), and the healers may again be unable to keep up. [You may also get "RNG SUCKS IT OUR BEST DPS FOUR TIMES AND EVERYONE ELSE ONCE" complaints.]

 

It's not as simple as you think. Now, yes, before RPPM we could still always rely on our ICD trinkets to go off somewhere in the first however long of the fight. 15% chance with 1:30 ICD? Odds are really good you'll see it within 10-15 seconds. But, it's not guaranteed. You can't know for a fact you're going to pop all CDs, pop hero, and be hitting the boss and throwing up DoTs with a combined 60% haste, 18k mastery, 100% crit and 15k Int. You knew you might get some of those together maybe, but not the whole thing.

 

It's really not near as simple as you make it sound. I don't like them going to such lengths to nerf UVLS (as it was causing the most problem), but I do understand how it can a problem.

 

Edit:

 

Your trinket can still proc in the pull but is is very unlikely with a trinket like Uvols. It is more likely it will proc between the 30sec and 1 min mark. It's a stupid change IMO and makes reaction to trinket procs and changing rotation rapid during the fight into something of the past. But taking skill out of the game is what casuals want.

 

 

I would argue that not having any set time when your trinket will proc at any point in the fight means you need more skill to react than when you can script out the first part of the fight when you know it will happen. Let's not be so elitist that it leads to unrealistic claims.

Edited August 24, 2013 by Kazistrasza

[Hurtlocker 11]

Yes, you do need some skill to react. However, I think the point Darthsoul is trying to make is the fact that the rppm trinkets currently causes high variance in dps (correct me if I am wrong darth).  This variance can give someone a huge dps gain if the rng gods favor them during that fight.  Even if a player only has a novice knowledge (understands the rotation) of the class they can still compete with a more skilled player if they get their trinket procs at the right time or more of them during the fight. Currently

 

Even with the changes, the variance I think will still be present.  A player can still see a difference in dps if their rppm trinket procs at the right time versus having it proc at a bad time.  A bad time for example would be procing while you are connecting the dots on twins.

 

While you still need some skill, getting those high parses rely more heavily on rppm procs versus understanding the fight and being able to strategize when to pop cd's or line cd's up. 

[Alphric 7]

It's easy to normally tell how people play. Normally when everybody pops everything with the opener and everybody does 200k+ but after the cds wear off the crap players will drop to like 60k, then depending on gear and skill goes up from there.

[Kazistrasz 216]

RNG can only get you so far. Part of the skill of being a warlock, no matter what spec you are, is knowing how to handle that RNG when you do get it.  An unskilled player, or someone new to Affliction, for example, might not understand they shouldn't use SB:SS just because they got a trinket proc and two of their DoTs are about to fall off. Rather, an unskilled player wouldn't be paying attention to their procs at all. They might think "Hey I got a Shadow Trance proc and it put me at three shards, so I'll go ahead and reapply haunt" even though their dots are all about to fall off or they're currently in the middle of another haunt.  Less skilled players would get UVLS and try to fit a Chaos Bolt into the window instead of immolate. A less skilled player will exit meta while it's still on CD so they can't get back in to cast Doom when UVLS procs.

 

It's very easy for anyone to look up an opener and push buttons in a scripted order and get big numbers out of the first 30 seconds. It's the other 6 minutes of the fight that skill gets you places.

 

But, of course, I could easily lose DPS to someone that frequently got Breath procs back-to-back in a fight.

[Zagam 1,982]

Moral of the story: RNG is a fickle bitch.

[PhilColins 9]

Thanks for the updated BiS, it's really helpful stuff here!

[Nytemare 2]

First, you would be surprised how hard "simple" things are to program, especially in such a complex coded environment. Most of the bugs they have to implement hot fixes for or every now and then have to stop heroic progression to fix in a fight aren't that they were programmed wrong. It's usually something somewhere else was put in and it had an unforseen affect on something seemingly unrelated in the code.

 

Second, think about it from the standpoint of the designers. Let's do an example. These numbers won't be wholely realistic, but they'll be close enough. How long should a fight take? Say you want a fight that should take average normal mode (with maybe a few heroics) guilds 8-minutes. We'll assume 10-man here, and just say that we'll assume about 150k DPS single target, and 150k for tanks + a possible disc priest. That's a total of 900k per sec. That averages to 432M health on the boss.

 

You want a three-phase encounter where the first phase has a significant amount of raid damage to help put strain on the healers. Something like Crackle from T11 where you can't avoid it the damage, but on a timer rather than pushing with the boss's health. Something that will drain healer mana. Let's say you want that to be about a third of the fight and the most intense part of the fight, so we go with 65% for a transition. Maybe your second phase has stuff you have to avoid being hit by on an individual basis, and maybe something that chases a player around here and there, so you take off a little bit of your health number since they won't get the same amount of DPS out but you want the same average fight length, and call it 400M (actually how about 403M because they hate even numbers on boss HP). Let's transition that at 30% into the final phase with a pretty significant soft-enrage that puts stress on the healers (a la Al'Akir's Acid Rain).

 

So you have this fight planned out, except here's the problem. The better than average guilds (not Method or even server first guilds, but maybe the guilds that are at least 10/13 now) with everything at the start are going to be doing ridiculous amounts of damage off the bat. They're already going to have a higher item level than the target audience on the fight for being previous tier's progression, so we'll assume 200k DPS for them. You're looking at them clearing the fight in a little over 6 minutes now. That first phase is 141.5M health to burn through, and is supposed to train healer mana. If everything is proccing off the start, they're gonna be doing 400k DPS on the opener for the first 30. Suddenly, they're halfway through that first phase in that first 30 seconds. If they decide they're going through it fast enough that they think they can 2-heal it, they're going to be doing that first phase in about a minute. With all CDs and everything being popped off the start, the target guild will still need about 2:30ish on this first phase.

 

The better-than-average guild's ability to take full advantage of all procs lining up right at the pull with CDs will have made what was supposed to be the most difficult part of the encounter has now trivialized the phase  and (most likely) the fight. Now, sure, it's a normal mode encounter, and we're using end-of-T15ish numbers, so we're looking at an early fight in the instance. It shouldn't be overly challenging, but it shouldn't be a cake walk unless you're one of the top guilds in the world where it's expected for you to clear normal mode in the first week with ease. So, what do you do to make the fight actually a challenge for them? Well, you could make the first phase last longer, maybe 60% instead of 65%. Maybe put in a debuff that makes a player do significantly less damage until they're healed to full or cause a certain amount of damage. Maybe make the raid-damage hit a little harder so they have to use three healers.

 

These would all solve the problem, right? Well, the target guilds who should be able to do the fight with some challenge without being overwhelmed will then be overwhelmed. The best guilds will still one-shot it the first week, and the better than average guilds will now have to take the fight seriously. But, the average guilds it was designed for will be totally decimated by it. They won't be taking full advantage of the procs lining up. If you make the first phase last longer, they'll need much more time and their healers may not be able to keep up. If you make it hit harder, their healers may not be able to keep up or maybe even do it at all. If you put in the debuff, the fight will still run on forever for the average guilds (especially because it'll take them longer to break through the debuff), and the healers may again be unable to keep up. [You may also get "RNG SUCKS IT OUR BEST DPS FOUR TIMES AND EVERYONE ELSE ONCE" complaints.]

 

It's not as simple as you think. Now, yes, before RPPM we could still always rely on our ICD trinkets to go off somewhere in the first however long of the fight. 15% chance with 1:30 ICD? Odds are really good you'll see it within 10-15 seconds. But, it's not guaranteed. You can't know for a fact you're going to pop all CDs, pop hero, and be hitting the boss and throwing up DoTs with a combined 60% haste, 18k mastery, 100% crit and 15k Int. You knew you might get some of those together maybe, but not the whole thing.

 

It's really not near as simple as you make it sound. I don't like them going to such lengths to nerf UVLS (as it was causing the most problem), but I do understand how it can a problem.

 

Edit:

 

 

 

I would argue that not having any set time when your trinket will proc at any point in the fight means you need more skill to react than when you can script out the first part of the fight when you know it will happen. Let's not be so elitist that it leads to unrealistic claims.

 

Nice post and I get it, still its blizz to makes the trinkets and all the spells, if that was the problem or if they having problem like you say, than design the fight around those. If they make fight around fact everyone will do say 400K dps in 1st 30sec than it would not matter.  

 

One solution is a raid check they could do - something like they doing with flex - when inter it can check players ilevel and scale the fight base off it, to always give a guild a challenge - if your in full BIS on day 1 of the new raid than you will have the same challenge as if your just have the item level to do lfr version.

 

Also I think they just need to do away with rppm and go back to having to use your trinkets, I like being able to control when my trinkets were up. I hate this new system

[Nytemare 2]

RNG can only get you so far. Part of the skill of being a warlock, no matter what spec you are, is knowing how to handle that RNG when you do get it.  An unskilled player, or someone new to Affliction, for example, might not understand they shouldn't use SB:SS just because they got a trinket proc and two of their DoTs are about to fall off. Rather, an unskilled player wouldn't be paying attention to their procs at all. They might think "Hey I got a Shadow Trance proc and it put me at three shards, so I'll go ahead and reapply haunt" even though their dots are all about to fall off or they're currently in the middle of another haunt.  Less skilled players would get UVLS and try to fit a Chaos Bolt into the window instead of immolate. A less skilled player will exit meta while it's still on CD so they can't get back in to cast Doom when UVLS procs.

 

It's very easy for anyone to look up an opener and push buttons in a scripted order and get big numbers out of the first 30 seconds. It's the other 6 minutes of the fight that skill gets you places.

 

But, of course, I could easily lose DPS to someone that frequently got Breath procs back-to-back in a fight.

 

I agree mostly with what you say. Only problem I have is the Chaos Bolt part. If you can you want to get a CB off during a UVLS as it your biggest hitting spell and I have seen it hit for 800K+. Now immolate is a weak dot why I wish they give desto another dot. I always try to put it up with ULVS as long as I not clipping it, but if it procs with more than 7 sec left, you end up clipping it and that a dps lost over a gain. Also I love when it procs in the middle/end of a CB so I can get 2 ULVS CB off or that 1 and immolate+Incinerate. Like I said I rather go back to having to trigger it over hoping the Random Gods favor me.

Edited September 3, 2013 by Nytemare

[Kazistrasz 216]

Nice post and I get it, still its blizz to makes the trinkets and all the spells, if that was the problem or if they having problem like you say, than design the fight around those. If they make fight around fact everyone will do say 400K dps in 1st 30sec than it would not matter.  

 

One solution is a raid check they could do - something like they doing with flex - when inter it can check players ilevel and scale the fight base off it, to always give a guild a challenge - if your in full BIS on day 1 of the new raid than you will have the same challenge as if your just have the item level to do lfr version.

 

Also I think they just need to do away with rppm and go back to having to use your trinkets, I like being able to control when my trinkets were up. I hate this new system

 

The first paragraph says you don't truly get it. Not everyone is going to do 400k DPS for the first chunk of the fight. The guilds that in the entire life of a patch can only be expected to kill 2 or 3 heroics at most are going to pull probably 250k DPS at the start, maybe less. Blizzard can't balance a fight around them, because the semi-hardcore guilds will find normal mode to be overly trivialized when it should at least take them a 6-8 weeks to get through normal mode. Blizzard can't balance a fight around the semi-hardcore guilds, because the normal mode and barely-into-heroic mode guilds aren't going to be able to complete the fight at all. If they could assume everyone would do stupid DPS, there wouldn't be design challenges. You can't simply say, "it's not Blizzard's fault if people can't play." That's like me saying, "it's not Blizzard's fault if you're not <Method> quality" because you practically gouge your eyes out to kill Heroic Lei Shen when it seems nigh impossible.

 

That level of scaling is simply impossible. Secondly, that would defeat the purpose of even having difficulties in raids. A difficulty level is supposed to be exactly that: a level of difficulty you have to master to complete a fight. Scaling it down for the undergeared will A: take a lot out of the challenge to guild's like <Method>, <Blood Legion>, etc. because they're good enough to do the fights undergeared and that's what lets them race for world first, and B: make it impossible for guilds that are less skillful but have higher item levels for having farmed what content they have killed for a month-and-a-half.

 

But really, the core issue is they wouldn't be able to program that level of scaling in any way that the game servers could handle, your computer would handle, or the devs' brains would handle. It's been hard enough on them getting hardware in place to handle scaling for flex.

 

Having on use trinkets is nice, but how often to the dev's ask what the point of a cooldown is if all you do is push it on cooldown all the time. I did like the old PPM/ICD trinkets or even static %/ICD trinkets better, but the RNG of RPPM does at a certain degree of complexity and skill to the game in handling them.

 

As to your last comment, getting off Immo and conflag, Immo and Incin, or Immo and RoF under UVLS is a better use of the proc than Chaos Bolt for the following reason: Sure, with no other buffs that UVLS might hit for 650k in my gear. My regular Chaos Bolt hits for about 375k. Our abilities that generate embers generate double when they crit. The extra embers you generate from guaranteeing they crit is worth more DPS than trying (and most often failing) to squeeze in a slightly beefier Chaos Bolt.

[JvChequer 43]

I demand a TL:DR Version of this whole argument

Edited September 1, 2013 by JvChequer

[Kazistrasz 216]

Nytemare: Blizzard  doesn't listen. Everything was fine. Trinkets should proc at the start. Can't be hard to program.

 

Me: Programming isn't that easy. Major design challenges due to some people pulling 400k at the start and some pulling 200k. Never knowing procs requires more skill and proper management of procs (e.g., Doom during UVLS, good snapshotting with Aff, Immo during UVLS as Destro and CB during Breath procs, etc.).

 

Nytemare: Blizzard should just plan around 400k DPS on the start. They should also make encounters scale with average ilvl of the group. (Side note: UVLS is better used for a beefy CB).

 

Me: Repeating design challenge since not everyone does 400k. That kind of scaling is literally impossible for them to implement. (Side note: Immo + Conflag/RoF/Incin during UVLS is better for the extra embers).

 

Done!

[JvChequer 43]

So, basically according to u, Nyte was talking bullshit and you are trying to explain why.

 

Ok, thanks.

[Yarv 2]

So I guess its official (and has been for a while now). no more imp swarm for 5.4. I know you said you are working on the math, but where do you see it coming out in the end? Are there really any glyphs you see us requiring to use in 5.4? Love to know your speculations Zagram.

 

Very great post like always

[Zagam 1,982]

I said a while ago Imp Swarm was going to be worthless...even a downgrade, and a bigger downgrade once you get your 2 set bonus.  I did a ton of the math, but I'm not going to release it.  It's a blatant downgrade agreed upon by many, so there's no need to support it. 

 

Glyphs to consider: Life Tap, Unending Resolve (replaces our passive 10% reduc at the cost of a defensive CD), Soulstone, Healthstone, etc.  Lots to consider, but it's good that they are not necessary for DPS as they originally intended.

[Nytemare 2]

As to your last comment, getting off Immo and conflag, Immo and Incin, or Immo and RoF under UVLS is a better use of the proc than Chaos Bolt for the following reason: Sure, with no other buffs that UVLS might hit for 650k in my gear. My regular Chaos Bolt hits for about 375k. Our abilities that generate embers generate double when they crit. The extra embers you generate from guaranteeing they crit is worth more DPS than trying (and most often failing) to squeeze in a slightly beefier Chaos Bolt.

 

True but most of the time when it procs for me I have full embers or in the middle of using a Chaos Bolt so I don't cap while I wait for Dark Soul > 30 sec I use CB on big procs / to avoid capping. Dark Soul < 30 sec I pull them so I can with my T15 2 set get off 5 CB and lot of time that where the trinket procs so I can usually get 2x off during its window for big damage

[Nytemare 2]

So, basically according to u, Nyte was talking bullshit and you are trying to explain why.

 

Ok, thanks.

lolz

 

Listen as a inspired game designer and will have a bachelor in it come Nov - any designer worth there weight would have the code broken up into sections. Go to the one that deals with raid, make it add up everyone in the group item level / how many members = average item level of the raid.

 

make a table with a bunch of different average - system take number it got compares to table - find number - set raid difficultly base off the rules set by that number. Example average item level of 650 = Boss get a x3 multiplier making them 3x times hard. This is a basic start.

 

Next if wipe happen(time length was 2min+ like in LFR for the buff) average out player DPS take the average item level / average dps = new number. Take that number and find in table. Set boss multiplier to new rules = Now raid is tune to the group gear, and what group can do = everyone gets a challenge from Method down to the basic just starting out. a Challenge that is only for their level and ensure they can do it, if they do the mech right and play their class how design the class to player.

 

I pretty sure blizz has never design a fight that excludes a class. Fight that can't be done if a lock in the group, or if a monk is in the group.

Edited September 3, 2013 by Nytemare

[Zagam 1,982]

lolz

 

Listen as a inspired game designer and will have a bachelor in it come Nov - any designer worth there weight would have the code broken up into sections. Go to the one that deals with raid, make it add up everyone in the group item level / how many members = average item level of the raid.

 

make a table with a bunch of different average - system take number it got compares to table - find number - set raid difficultly base off the rules set by that number. Example average item level of 650 = Boss get a x3 multiplier making them 3x times hard. This is a basic start.

 

Next if wipe happen(time length was 2min+ like in LFR for the buff) average out player DPS take the average item level / average dps = new number. Take that number and find in table. Set boss multiplier to new rules = Now raid is tune to the group gear, and what group can do = everyone gets a challenge from Method down to the basic just starting out. a Challenge that is only for their level and ensure they can do it, if they do the mech right and play their class how design the class to player.

 

I pretty sure blizz has never design a fight that excludes a class. Fight that can't be done if a lock in the group, or if a monk is in the group.

What you're creating is a tax bracket, only with gear levels.  Talk to the average working American and see if he likes having more responsibility to the public the better of a life he made for himself.  This also deincentivizes gear upgrades which is the complete opposite of what raiding rewards are about.  Your first kill should ALWAYS be your most difficult and rewarding.

 

As for the part on being a challenge that is only for their level and if they do mechanics right, they will win...that's called Heroic raiding for the elite player, normals for the casual player, and soon-to-be Flex for the lesser casual players.  You're supposed to play in the difficulty you belong to, and there should NEVER be a situation where the game adapts to your item level.  On top of being ridiculously difficult in trying to program, it would be even more difficult to implement and gain the attention and approval of players and developers.  MMOs are set at a difficulty level and you strive to improve yourself over and over until you can overcome your most current obstacle/boss.  Method's challenge comes at the beginning of an expansion when they down bosses with no guides or current strategies out.  They thrive off of this.  The only types of games that should react to your skill level and assign you a bracket is, you guessed it, PvP.  But PvP doesn't put you against people with the same gear as you...it sets you against players of similar skill.  PvE should be no different. 

[JvChequer 43]

lolz

 

Listen as a inspired game designer and will have a bachelor in it come Nov - any designer worth there weight would have the code broken up into sections. Go to the one that deals with raid, make it add up everyone in the group item level / how many members = average item level of the raid.

 

make a table with a bunch of different average - system take number it got compares to table - find number - set raid difficultly base off the rules set by that number. Example average item level of 650 = Boss get a x3 multiplier making them 3x times hard. This is a basic start.

 

Next if wipe happen(time length was 2min+ like in LFR for the buff) average out player DPS take the average item level / average dps = new number. Take that number and find in table. Set boss multiplier to new rules = Now raid is tune to the group gear, and what group can do = everyone gets a challenge from Method down to the basic just starting out. a Challenge that is only for their level and ensure they can do it, if they do the mech right and play their class how design the class to player.

 

I pretty sure blizz has never design a fight that excludes a class. Fight that can't be done if a lock in the group, or if a monk is in the group.

Sorry for been an asshole, but, what's the point of all this bulls*t ?

Raids are fine, some sort of fights are easier with X comp, other with Y comp but doable with whatever comp your grupo have. That's fine.

Better player have a less challenger experience in normal and a great challenge with sub-gear to Heroic, and worse/medium player with the time have gear to compensate all this, but still have the mechanics to make it right.

And everything still fine to me.

Edited September 3, 2013 by JvChequer

[Yarv 2]

I said a while ago Imp Swarm was going to be worthless...even a downgrade, and a bigger downgrade once you get your 2 set bonus.  I did a ton of the math, but I'm not going to release it.  It's a blatant downgrade agreed upon by many, so there's no need to support it. 

 

Glyphs to consider: Life Tap, Unending Resolve (replaces our passive 10% reduc at the cost of a defensive CD), Soulstone, Healthstone, etc.  Lots to consider, but it's good that they are not necessary for DPS as they originally intended.

Do you see Affliction or Destruction even coming close to the damage that Demonology will be doing in 5.4? My group hasn't worked on the PTR yet and I was wondering your thoughts. Thanks guys!

Edited September 3, 2013 by Yarv

[Zagam 1,982]

I think you need to rephrase and ask if Demo or Destro will come close to Affliction.  Also, those situations are fight dependent, and things will change significantly with Heroic modes since it adds many new targets usually.  I never go on the PTR...all of my assumptions and modifications come from ptr.wowhead.com and the testimony I get from other players who venture into the PTR.  Nothing personal or anything, but I see playing on the PTR like knowing what you're getting for Christmas on Thanksgiving.  I'm already getting burned out on WoW, so not sitting on the PTR while mindlessly farming Heroic modes is what maintains my sanity.

[Yarv 2]

I think you need to rephrase and ask if Demo or Destro will come close to Affliction.  Also, those situations are fight dependent, and things will change significantly with Heroic modes since it adds many new targets usually.  I never go on the PTR...all of my assumptions and modifications come from ptr.wowhead.com and the testimony I get from other players who venture into the PTR.  Nothing personal or anything, but I see playing on the PTR like knowing what you're getting for Christmas on Thanksgiving.  I'm already getting burned out on WoW, so not sitting on the PTR while mindlessly farming Heroic modes is what maintains my sanity.

Sorry that you feel so burnt out on WoW and hope that 5.4 brings some new light to it for you. I guess nothing will ever come close to Affliction. I continue to look at Destruction as a lost cause because it doesnt seem to be able to keep up. Does the Tier 16 pieces give Destruction a chance next patch as a main raiding spec?

[Zagam 1,982]

Eh, farming PvE content over and over is just muscle memory.  If our Mumble isn't exciting, raiding gets a little boring.  There will be new raiding life with SoO very soon.  I'm going to be doing a fight-by-fight analysis in preparation for each fight, and so far, Affliction is looking strong while Destruction and Demonology have their moments.

 

Destruction's Tier does nothing to give them a lift, especially when compared to the other specs' tier bonuses.  Destruction will be a bit of a gimmick spec, performing well on fights with lots of adds.  Stellar Destruction players will still play it with some success, but they'll have to work ridiculously hard at it.  Brusalk is the main guy I watch in terms of Destruction strategies, and I think even he is getting frustrated with the spec overall.  They still have 5ish days to figure something out..