5.4 Demonology Tips and Quirks

[Liquidsteel 279]

I was responding to your statement that you shouldn't play Demonology unless you love it and that there's too little reward for the effort to put in. Comes across as you saying the spec is bad, which it isn't.

 

A lot of people here take what you say as gospel (not saying this in a derogatory way whatsoever) and I would hate to see people deterred from playing it because of that.

[Zagam 1,982]

I think, actually, that I've argued that Demonology IS completely fine while others have said it's not fine.  I love Demonology.  After mastering all 3 specs, it's a pretty fair assessment to recommend Destruction to most players because it requires the least amount of effort for the best reward. 

 

My job as a forum leader and theorycrafter isn't to go with the swing of things.  It's to give the best option considering my audience.  11/14H+ players are in the VERY low portion of total players out there.  I'm talking under 1-2%.  Those players should already know what their strengths and weaknesses are.  These players aren't my target audience when I say to go Destruction unless you absolutely love Demonology (i.e. COMPLETELY master it.) 

 

Demonology is, and has been, perfectly fine.  I pushed 377k on Thok a while ago.  Omaric plays Demonology as well and is quite proficient at it.  There are MANY players who think that Demonology is the most complicated spec, proven by the poll I put up a few months ago.  Considering that most players had a difficult time grasping the spec despite the plethora of knowledge available here, it's most advantageous to give players the best option to maximize play.  I've been meaning to switch over to Demonology for some fights and get out of the boredom that is Destruction on every fight.  It's just hard to justify on any fight how you can theoretically do better as Demo than Destruction right now.  I can say this because I've played every spec on every fight this tier, the tier before that, and the tier before that.  I try my best to remove biased opinions and give objective overviews on my opinions.  But that's all they are: opinions.

[Riesenraddieb 1]

wow !

 

i register my self here only for this Demonology Topic ! :D

You guys are awesome and Demonology is so insane awesome too.

 

Zagam.. a really nice and detailed guide. You do it right!

[Zagam 1,982]

Dicked around as Demo last night...I missed it so much.  I haven't been Demonology since they nerfed UVLS.  Opener still feels kinda clunky, but it still works out.  I was delaying entering Metamorphosis a bit to test out the ability to ramp up some DF.  I think pre-casting Soul Fire is absolutely essential.  If you get the 20% buff (20% of the time), your opener should be monstrous, even without Imp Swarm.  I was working with 76xx Haste (7432 cap with my 574 PBI) and the Imps were coming out every 16 seconds. 

 

Since Demo isn't being played heavily right now, here's what I'm seeing in regards to what you should do with some stuff after some brief LFR action last night...

 

1) Soul Fire should be used in caster form to build precious Demonic Fury.  We spend DF like the Kardashians spend their dignity points every Christmas with that stupid Christmas card.  Soul Fire should be used in Metamorphosis ONLY if you have an Intellect proc OR the 2pc 20% damage buff.  Of course, the other priorities work as well (boss about to die, etc).

 

2) Sniping mobs is difficult to do without Shadowburn, but if you're able to kill things in Metamorphosis, you can gain a metric shit ton of DF.  I was actually popping in and out of Meta to try to time KBs on the adds during Norushen.  If you're able to land a KB, you gain a good bit of Fury back.  Not likely to be feasible in a lot of fights, but I think with some proper timing/luck, you can channel a great deal of DF by pulling this off.

 

3) Mannoroth's Fury is klunky at best.  Unfortunately, the AoE component still requires some proximity to what you're killing.  I tested this out during LFR Dark Shamans.  I can tell you that Fire and Brimstone is MUCH stronger and easier to pull off than MF + Immo Aura.  It's saddening that MF doesn't affect Hand of Guldan, because THAT would be amazing to drop on those slimes.  What I DID do was time a perfect Chaos Wave to kill 6-7 adds which completely filled my Demonic Fury bar.  This was sweet.

 

4) AD is pretty solid, but I found that I never got over 400-500 Demonic Fury.  I was constantly going into Metamorphosis with trinket procs, to kill an add, or to buff my Hand of Guldan.  I almost feel as if I'm enjoying the spec more now because I'm going in and out of Metamorphosis to do damage, NOT to buff Doom with UVLS.  AD is solid if you want another burst phase.  For most movement phases, you should try to time Metamorphosis for Touch of Chaos applications.  I found I was using Life Tap VERY sparingly, if at all, with a lot of Metamorphosis timing.  The only time I went OOM was at the end of a fight where I was spamming the living daylights out of Soul Fire. 

 

5) The opener is going to take some work from me to perfect.  It's obvious that you want to get Doom applied the most powerful as possible.  Pre-casting Soul Fire, Shadowflame, and Corruption should proc your two trinkets pretty early, especially if you get an Essence of Yu'lon proc.  Demonic Fury will be low at the start, so you'll want to build Fury as much as possible...just make sure you get as many buffed ToC's in during your opener, and not Soul Fires.  Make absolutely sure you get your Bloodlusted, Tempus Repit, Berserked Hand of Guldan buffed for your 2nd application of Shadowflame.  Spend all of your DF in your opener as possible.  When you come out of Meta from being DF starved, dump as many Molten Core charges as possible with Soul Fire to build DF quickly and fish for a 2pc proc.  When HoG comes off CD and you still have procs rolling, pop back into Meta and spend the rest of your DF.  After this, you'll be building DF and popping into Meta if you get a trinket proc.  Watch for the 2 minute mark with PBI will proc along with Dark Soul.  You need to be in Meta for the entire duration of that Dark Soul unless the fight gets weird for that part, namely Iron Juggernaut (Siege Phase) and Nazgrim (defensive stance).

 

6) Imp Swarm is still in a goofy place.  It now only procs 4 Imps taking away a lot of equalization debate.  Essentially, Imp Swarm will be good on short fights but progressively worse on longer fights due to the loss of Demonic Fury and damage from less Imps.  Here's the breakdown...

 

For argument's sake, let's say you run with about 25% Haste (I'm at 23.84%).  Your CD on Imp Swarm would be around 90 seconds baseline.  However, if you use it with Berserking, Tempus Repit, and Bloodlust, the CD on your Imp Swarm would be much lower.  1.25 * 1.3 * 1.3 * 1.2 = ~150% Haste, so CD would drop to 35ish seconds.  This means you'd get 1 Imp from your pre-cast Soul Fire, 4 Imps from Imp Swarm, and Demonic Calling would kick in after 35 seconds.  Without glyph of Imp Swarm, Demonic Calling is 16.5 seconds, so it'll be 20.5 seconds with the glyph.  That means you'd get 1 + 4 + 85/20.5 = 4, or 9 total Imps in the first two minutes.  However, unless the stars align with Tempus Repit for each successive Imp Swarm, you'll be looking at a 90 second CD giving you only 5 Imps each successive two minute interval.  IF TR procs when Imp Swarm is ready to go, your CD will be around 75 seconds, which still isn't that great. 

 

With Glyph of Imp Swarm

0:00 - 2:00 = 9 Imps (1 from pre-cast, 4 from Imp Swarm, 4 from Demonic Calling while Imp Swarm is off cooldown)

2:00 - 4:00 = 5 Imps (4 from Imp Swarm, 1 from Demonic Calling)

4:00 - 6:00 = 5 Imps (4 from Imp Swarm, 1 from Demonic Calling)

 

You CAN squeeze out another Imp before each Imp Swarm if you delay Imp Swarm until Demonic Calling comes off CD.  Basically you'd have to adjust this on your own personal Haste, but you'd essentially be clipping an Imp if you were to pop Imp Swarm if you hadn't JUST gotten a Demonic Calling Imp.  This would require ABSOLUTE mastery of this timing which is an additional thing you'd have to watch for.  THIS GLYPH SHOULD ONLY BE USED IN THE HANDS OF THE MASTERS AND ONLY DURING FIGHTS THAT LAST LESS THAN 4 MINUTES!  Using Imp Swarm would also buff the shit out of your first 5 Imps with all your Intellect procs, so your opener would be loaded.  But just like Affliction, the longer the fight goes, the worse your DPS will get.  Your 4 or 5 Imps would get buffed every 2 minutes, but you would go up to 90 seconds with no Wild Imps, short of Doom Crits, limiting your Soul Fire usage and hurting your Demonic Fury gains. 

 

Without the Glyph, you'd gain an Imp every 16.5 seconds meaning you'd see just short of 6 Imps every minute with some overlap.  Remember that Haste would also buff Demonic Calling, so your opener would see you squeezing out bonus Imps frequently.  This would also enable a continuous flow of Wild Imps via Demonic Calling that can keep your Molten Core charges rolling as well as a more sustainable flow of Demonic Fury.

 

My recommendation is to NOT use the glyph for any meaningful fights (non-farm), but for farm, a personalized technique based on your exact Haste to not clip Demonic Calling can be used for a meaningful DPS gain.

[Liquidsteel 279]

Yeah you pretty much hit the nail on the head with how me and the other Demo loving lock in my guild go about things.

 

Demonic Fury is a very sparse resource now and you have to manage it well. Depending on what trinkets you run it might not always even be worth it to Soul Fire in Meta purely with an Int Proc. You obviously line up Dark Soul with bindings and can Soul Fire in Meta then, but if you're running KTT and get frequent procs it can leave you wanting for fury when you need it. If you run BBoY then yeah, fire off a few Soul Fires at 5+ stacks but otherwise I think it's best to ToC unless you also have a meta gem proc to go with your int proc.

 

One question I did have is that you say you're running 7432 haste due to your PBI. Is this before you equip the trinket? Because the added starts are calculated into your character sheet when you have it equipped.

 

Conversely, I find that if you run with the 14880 breakpoint for haste, you get a much smoother income of both fury and molten core procs, and be a bit more liberal with your soul fire usage in Meta. 

Edited December 3, 2013 by Liquidsteel

[Zagam 1,982]

One question I did have is that you say you're running 7432 haste due to your PBI. Is this before you equip the trinket? Because the added starts are calculated into your character sheet when you have it equipped.

 

Conversely, I find that if you run with the 14880 breakpoint for haste, you get a much smoother income of both fury and molten core procs, and be a bit more liberal with your soul fire usage in Meta. 

I have 7616 Haste which covers the 7432 needed with the Amplification effect that takes me over the 8097 breakpoint.  I'm not sure why people are still confusing this effect.  Amplification REDUCES the amount of Haste needed to hit caps, so of course the amount is WITH the trinket equipped.  There is no before or after equip nonsense.  With the trinket on, that is the new value needed for the 8097 cap.

 

To get to the 15kish breakpoint, I'd have to sacrifice Mastery.  A good bit of Mastery, actually.  This lowers damage of my pets, severely lowers my damage in Metamorphosis, and hurts my overall DPS.  That's a playstyle preference, but I don't recommend it.  It also needs to be mentioned that I'm playing with a Destruction OS and will not be going for that amount of Haste because playing Destro with 45% Haste is silly dumb.

[Liquidsteel 279]

I'm not confused, I was just checking you weren't. Your character sheet takes into account the amplification effect. I have 8097 haste with the trinket equipped, when I remove it I have 7432.

 

If you have 7616 with it equipped then you have failed to hit the breakpoint, because that value has already been amplified.

Edited December 3, 2013 by Liquidsteel

[Zagam 1,982]

I'm fairly confident the ratings do not change when you de-equip and re-equip the trinket.  I watched my percentages change, but not the ratings.  Can you 100% confirm your findings?  I haven't unequipped or re-equipped it in 3 or 4 months because I didn't care about Haste thresholds as Destruction.  I vividly remember taking it off and putting it back on and not watching the rating change, only the percentage.  If so, that's a pretty big oversight on my part.

[Liquidsteel 279]

Yep 100% the ratings change when you remove the trinket.

 

I coined BBoY normal and hc versions of PBI and KTT on the first kill of each boss, so I've messed around a lot with trinkets/reforges and what not between all 3 specs. Was using KKT and BBoY for a while as affliction as the PBI not proccing was getting really ridiculous. 

 

If you haven't un-equipped the trinket since week 2 then it's a pretty easy mistake to make.

Edited December 3, 2013 by Liquidsteel

[Zagam 1,982]

I'm pretty sure it didn't do that a patch ago, but could be just a time-long mistake.  No need to inspect it as Destruction since that Haste cap isn't chased.  Meh, I can sacrifice another 700 Crit.  Good to know my absurd damage will go up even higher now.  Thanks for the find.

[Severan 0]

I agree with you liquid on the higher haste breakpoint. I went for 15876 to get an extra doom tick from lust or a meta gem proc. The higher fury gain is noticable plus more molten core procs and wild imps. Definately smoother play. Pet hits for a bit less but swings more often.

 

I know simcraft isn't the best measure but I gain 2% dps changing from 8097 to 15876 breakpoint. Over 7.5 minute fight I go from 8700 fury to 9800, 88 to 99 molten core procs and 3 extra wild imps.

[Zagam 1,982]

You only talked about your gains...what about your losses?  Playing Demonology optimal will include using Metamorphosis properly, much like Destruction plays with Chaos Bolt properly.  Having more Molten Core charges or more Imps isn't necessarily going to matter if you don't use them properly.  RNG with trinkets will always sway this, and your ability to adapt will be more precious than your secondary stat change.  Secondary stats are ALWAYS a gain somewhere and a loss somewhere else. 

 

More Mastery = more pet damage (amplified by Grimoire use), higher base damage, and 3x damage in Metamorphosis.  With proper use of HoG, Mastery will always win.  Most of your sims are included on single target...where's your Mastery argument with AoE?  Mastery scales absurdly well with all 3 Warlock specs when ANY cleaving is occuring.  Mastery holds its own on single target.  I've played high Haste Demo build, but it was back when you wanted more Doom ticks because UVLS gave you more Imps.  I can't see Crit AND Mastery being devalued to the point you stack Haste for more DF gains.  If you have enough DF and proper play to keep Meta up during Intellect procs, much like you do with Chaos Bolt as Destruction, then you should be more than fine.  Playing for more DF just for the sake of more DF is giving up more good than bad.

 

Please consider I'm talking min/maxing here.  No one is going to see a huge drop off or upswing by moving your secondary stats.  Proper play will ALWAYS trump DPS discussions...I'm talking about 1-5% DPS swings with RNG included.  We can always record logs and see who does better.  I'll have 11/14H tonight done purely as Demonology.  I was a top parsing Demo in ToT...I don't think I ranked below 10 on anything during the first few weeks when gear was similar and before padding came into effect.  Ranking now is almost worthless because no one is playing the spec.  Being a big fish in a small pond isn't really that cool.  There are lots of small changes to make that I'm thinking about now with each encounter and how I approached them.  Being in a 25 man affords me the luxury of playing a spec I enjoy. 

[Zagam 1,982]

 

I agree with you liquid on the higher haste breakpoint. I went for 15876 to get an extra doom tick from lust or a meta gem proc.

 

I think this is a gameplay mistake.  You shouldn't be applying Doom for more ticks anymore.  You're not churning out automatic Imps.  You should be snapshotting Doom to hit as hard as possible with Intellect procs.  Intellect ALSO gives you Crit, which gives better RNG on the Imp proccing.  Doom ticks =/= DPS gain like it used to.  Snapshotting Doom = big DPS upswing.  PBI Intellect proc gives ~7-8% Crit.  KTT gives the same.  Having Doom hit with an additional 15-20% Crit and 30k Spell Power is VASTLY more important than having it tick an additional time.

[Liquidsteel 279]

Well as with everything it depends on your gear and your play style and also if you play any other specs as main/offspec.

 

As Zagam said, he prefers low haste destro and his gear isn't haste heavy either. Until last week I could hit 14880 by only changing like 2 gems and equipping normal BBoY over hc KTT.

 

I picked up a few mastery pieces since then and since I'm progressing on Garrosh it is pointless to hit 14.8k haste just for farm. The higher breakpoint is much smoother for single target though and I 100% believe that it offers more dps, but the difference isn't massive, and RNG/External factors are gonna have a bigger impact anyway. Just take a look at Shinafae and Zinnin. They both play demo on a large number of fights, one at low haste and one at high, and it's clear the decision is preferential.

 

Once progress is done I'll probably ditch Destro for a while. I do enjoy the spec a lot (more than affliction at least) but when it's almost all you get to play for 90% of your raiding hours it gets a bit boring. 

 

Edit: Just to clarify, the value of 14880 haste is the extra ticks from shadowflame at 14873, plus an extra tick of Doom during a bloodlusted pull with meta gem/zerking. That's the only time it's worth it to hit a doom breakpoint IMO.

Edited December 3, 2013 by Liquidsteel

[PhilColins 9]

I agree with the 14880 breakpoint. I definitely had more room to breathe with DF spending than the 8k breakpoint. It gives more opportunity to launch SF during Meta. This also give the option to build DF and keep MC procs between 7-9 so when I do get Int procs I can pop into meta and go to town spamming SF. This typically gives higher numbers than spamming ToC. I have to do the math but with 20 seconds of PBI + DS, I get 1.5M SF every 1.3 seconds which is amazing and happens every 2 minutes. ToC might crit for about 500k so there's a lot of RNG to consider when comparing ToC spam vs SF spam. This is a special case though.

In between the 2 minutes of no PBI + DS, it's just a mini game of DF building. I usually go around 800 or so and a trinket has proc'd in which I go into Meta and spam some ToC.

[Zagam 1,982]

Question to you guys building DF to spam Soul Fire...are you considering the synergy between the 2pc and 4pc?  The 2pc is worthless to reproc once it's up.  However, ToC spam can generate free Chaos Waves which can hit for 200k, crit up to 450k.  Curious as to what you guys think here, because I still spam ToC during AoE because free Chaos Waves are huge in benefit.  They give you tons of damage, tons of Molten Core procs, and it doesn't cost Fury.  Are you stacking Haste purely to generate more Demonic Fury?  How are you having issues building Demonic Fury outside the opener when Soul Fire generates 40 per cast?

 

From what I'm looking at in some logs, Haste stacking is for the Imp generation with NOT using the glyph.  High Haste = constant flow of Imps, which makes logical sense to me.  I think that high Haste is good for single target, but I can't see how Mastery isn't more valuable.  I think I'm going to dump the rest of my Crit into Haste and try to hit 9890 (covers lots of stuff under the Haste motherload) without sacrificing any Mastery. 

[Zagam 1,982]

Since apparently there are more skilled Demo players on here than I thought, what are you guys' thoughts on Service vs Supremacy?  I see Service winning single target im Simcraft, so I assume that's why most are going that way.  My argument is the 2pc is a multplicative effect with Supremacy bringing your Wrathguard's damage up from 20% to 44% (1.2x1.2 = 1.44) and with his Wrathstorm hitting more targets more often, especially with the set bonus up, how do you see that playing out? 

 

I've always argued Wrathguard wins out because they are close enough to argue but it's one less thing to worry about.  Double Felguard in the opener might help with the DF gain, however.  I still worry more about overall damage over a long period rather than burst. 

 

EDIT: From my own experience, I saw the Wrathguard perform well.  Simcraft agrees with me in any number of targets over 1.  From 2 targets and every additional, the Wrathguard pulls ahead by an increasing margin.  Curious to see if others are using Felguard for the opener and burst much like some are still using Imp Swarm.  I tend to play for overall higher damage while some place a heavy emphasis on burst.  I don't think either is wrong...RNG will always play the middle bitch to both...but I am curious to hear how you all deal with this.

[Zagam 1,982]

Also, to clarify, I'm not trying to sound combative in responses.  I enjoy debates on things because it helps both sides of a view see the other clearly.  This has been the most fun I've had on the forums in quite some time.  I really do value your opinions and hope you don't see me as some egotistical douchebag who thinks he's always right.  I actually enjoy being wrong every now and then.

[Omaric 246]

Damn, now I want to play Demo again.  Thanks a lot guys.

[Liquidsteel 279]

Even with high haste I still do a lot of ToCing.

 

I just find that with low haste, between responding to PBI+DS and the occasional KTT proc, I don't have much fury left over when stuff like 2 piece procs. With higher haste you have enough fury coming in (from lots of reasons such as more imps like you mentioned, more shadowflame ticks, more corruption ticks even) to do so. I also use BBoY with high haste and this allows me to crank out 3-4 soulfires at 5+ stacks. 

 

I want to stress how much better Molten Core generation is at high haste. More imps obviously benefits this, as does extra ticks of shadowflame. Being able to spend a bit more time in Meta (ToCing for the most part) means you get to proc more free chaos waves, the main benefit of which (in my opinion at least) is that it's another guaranteed Molten Core proc.

 

Again, I'm strictly talking about Single Target here as Sha/Juggernaut/Malkorok/Thok are the only fights I've managed to play it. Immerseus doesn't count and I sat out for Shamans, playing Destro on the others. I did play Demo on Nazgrim though and did pretty well, but this is more of a Single Target fight with a bit of multi dotting target switching.

 

Unfortunately I often miss out on reset due to RL commitments on Wednesdays, so I'm chomping at the bit to gather more data but sadly it will have to wait a few weeks.

 

 

Regarding your question about Service vs Supremacy. I'm really not sure. I like service for the fury gain on the opener and again whenever you pop dark soul with bindings. With low haste the 2 piece is kind of RNG in that you can't always make it proc, whereas with high haste you can happily churn out back to back soulfires and force it to proc as you go into a PBI+DS dump. I think service would suit higher haste because you can guarantee the Felguard comes out fully buffed, so perhaps supremacy could work with lower haste levels when you don't really control when you soul fire (or rather need to do so in caster form for fury).

[Zagam 1,982]

Multistrike is still a solid trinket for Demo, BTW.  I had it pumping 5.5-6.0% of my total damage.  I know some people are still using BBoY, but I can't justify a 561 BBoY over a 574 KTT.  I think having a 10 second window of increased damage is better than 5 seconds of supercharged damage, but then again, that's preference as well.  Plus the fact once you get Heroic BBoY, progression is done. 

 

I'm finding Supremacy to win overall.  The Wrathguard is also buffed when Dark Soul is up.  Wrathguard is 20% better than the Felguard by default and with Service, you get a 2nd pet for 20 seconds out of 120 seconds, or 16.6%.  With Dark Soul, both Felguards get a 20% buff, so it comes out as a virtual tie (2x Felguards better for the 20 seconds of Dark Soul, but evens out overall), so any additional procs you get are multplicative with Supremacy, so I think Wrathguard wins out.  Single target, it's VERY close, close enough to not care.  I love that we have choices.  But I think at 2+ targets, Supremacy wins.  Plus, I have two sexy ass Armageddons, and I hate having them sit in the bank. 

 

I think tonight I'm going to push for a Mastery > Haste >>>> Crit build where I dump all Crit.  I'll just deal with it for Destruction.  I think the only fights where Demo isn't really suited for would be Norushen.  Typically, I Shadowburn all those adds and I won't have that as Demo, so I'll probably go Destruction for that fight.  For the rest, I can't see anywhere else where Demo can't perform well.  Losing Shadowburn hurts less in 25 than it does in 10.  I JUST WISH MANNOROTH'S FURY AFFECTED HAND OF GULDAN!

[PhilColins 9]

So in my experience it's worth more DF spent to not count on RNG and just spam SF with proc's, even if 2pc is up. The way I look at it: 20% more damage to my 100% crit ting SF is gonna be worth the DF spent compared to the 20% increased ToC. Without number crunching 20% of BIG NUMBERS (SF) > 20% MEDIUM NUMBERS (ToC). I'll calculate the DF worth spending to see f it's actually worth it. Having the 7-9 stacks for blowing my load hasn't steered me wrong yet.

I tend to just use Sup over Service because I don't enjoy the use of another CD yet since I'm just starting to get back into Demo play. Using the Imp Swarm glyph has been beneficial to my playstyle, but I can equally see both parties working out well.

Personally I fish for 2pc a lot since I have an abundance of imps usually thanks to the extra doom tick. Therefore I can cast SF more in caster form to proc the 2pc, then flip to meta after HoG weaving.

Hope this is clear. More math later tonight when I'm done teaching.

[Omaric 246]

So in my experience it's worth more DF spent to not count on RNG and just spam SF with proc's, even if 2pc is up. The way I look at it: 20% more damage to my 100% crit ting SF is gonna be worth the DF spent compared to the 20% increased ToC. Without number crunching 20% of BIG NUMBERS (SF) > 20% MEDIUM NUMBERS (ToC). I'll calculate the DF worth spending to see f it's actually worth it. Having the 7-9 stacks for blowing my load hasn't steered me wrong yet.

 

I agree on SF a bit, but on the other hand you're discounting possible 20% buffed Chaos Wave procs on ToC as well as being able to save MC charges for DF generation.

[Zagam 1,982]

Yeah I think optimal play is to switch to ToC when 2pc bonus is up and when it's not up, fish for another proc.  20% is reliable enough that you can sling some Soul Fires. You'll have some unlucky streaks, but more often than not, you should maintain Metamorphosis by using ToC > SF especially with 2pc being live.

[Yarv 2]

So has the rotation changed with the big change in the opener? I'm trying to wrap my head around all this math that has been thrown around? It seems like demo can work with the lower haste point however it gets starved (right guys?) we don't want to use imp swarm glyph because we do not receive the imps we want. I've just been progressing with my guild on heroic thok and I feel that if I go from affliction to demo I could better help my team (even though I only have lfr PBI). ((Don't rip me to shreds guys. Just trying to understand everything...))