5.4 Demonology Tips and Quirks

[Roxzey 0]

I dont even try to chaos bolt anymore. I just go up with 2 charges of conflag and about to gain an ember. I conflag twice, proc 4 piece, then go to town. I use my embers to shadowburn. I think just go back to the group for some boss dps or help cleave down mines.

[Haegr 0]

Just a quick hypothetical: is it worth it to take Go Sac with KTT as Demo? Or is the wrath/fel storm just too good to pass up?

[Zagam 1,982]

Your Demonic Fury generation and cleaving abilities plummet without a pet.  Only reason GoSac was viable in the past was because UVLS gave you tons of Imps and GoSac empowered them by 30%.  Neither of those conditions exist, so no, it's not viable.

[Maevisten 0]

Thoughts on Exp/Mastery or Exp/Haste gems with Purified trink?

[JvChequer 43]

Thoughts on Exp/Mastery or Exp/Haste gems with Purified trink?

 

Don't make a lot of difference, less than 1k of dps gain, maybe,  but it's mathematically better than int+mastery since any secondary are better than int for gems.

Edited December 14, 2013 by JvChequer

[Liquidsteel 279]

I would go with the expertise/mastery gems here. Whilst for Destro people can argue that mastery is the only real stat to go for, Demo gains a lot from haste as well (similar to affliction). If the choice is 800 int vs 1600 haste, the haste wins out by a decent amount.

 

Obviously this is due to expertise on gems allowing you to reforge out of hit elsewhere.

[Kazistrasz 216]

I use Int/Haste when I'm demo, but only because it's the only way I can reach the haste value I want to use because my gear has lots of crit.

[Maevisten 0]

The idea is that it's not just 160 hit versus 80 intel that you are adding....but that 160 hit can allow you to reforge hit out of your gear into secondary stats to get amplified 8% by the trinket.

Edited December 14, 2013 by Maevisten

[Maevisten 0]

I use Int/Haste when I'm demo, but only because it's the only way I can reach the haste value I want to use because my gear has lots of crit.

But if you used exp/haste, you could reforge hit out of your gear to further amplify your haste rating.

[Kazistrasz 216]

I've done the math on it. If I use exp gems, I get about 1300 non-mastery stats at the cost of 970 SP. I'd MUCH rather that 970 SP.

 

If I could get mastery out of it, I'd consider it. But, otherwise, no.

Edited December 15, 2013 by Kazistrasz

[Typecast 16]

I've done the math on it. If I use exp gems, I get about 1300 non-mastery stats at the cost of 970 SP. I'd MUCH rather that 970 SP.

 

If I could get mastery out of it, I'd consider it. But, otherwise, no.

I think you are heavily underestimating the sexiness of those Shadowflame breakpoints.  The default profile shows you gaining like 7k DPS single target just for reaching the 14.8k breakpoint.  Probably would get another 2-3k more if you used the profile on the mmoc forums that had a few optimizations.

Edited December 15, 2013 by Typecast

[Maevisten 0]

You shouldn't be losing mastery regardless.  It just gives you the option of converting SP to Hit....which can be reforged to increase your mastery or haste.

Edited December 15, 2013 by Maevisten

[Kazistrasz 216]

Please don't go linking SimC at me. It's almost as bad as beginning a sentence with "but Ask Mr. Robot says..."

 

Shadowflame is nice, but what exactly is an extra 1300 haste going to get me? If I'm already setting myself at a breakpoint, then I want nothing but mastery after that. I'm not gaining mastery by using exp gems, I'm gaining more haste. Therefore, useless.

[Zagam 1,982]

7k DPS swings in Simcraft are not really noteworthy.  Single target DPS parses right now are over 400k DPS.  7k/400k = 1.75%. 

 

It is still an eye-sore to me that so many people flock to the conclusion that modifying your secondary stats creates the best way to do better damage.  If I could just see people in the T16 thread talking about how they deal with each mechanic with the tenacity that you all talk about stats, I could retire happily. 

 

Secondary stats are the easiest thing to change.  Do you all realize WHY there is a debate on secondary stats?  BECAUSE IT DOESN'T MATTER IN THE GRAND SCHEME OF THINGS!  RNG will randomize your parses every single week.  You might crit less, you might not have a trinket proc at the right time...there are always factors that modify your parses.  I don't fix people's DPS by looking at their armories.  I analyze their logs, give them feedback, and they return 30-40% DPS gains.  I have PERSONALLY modified every single possible combination of secondary stats and do the EXACT SAME DPS within 3% EVERY SINGLE TIME. 

 

You guys can sit here and talk about these breakpoints, Int vs Expertise, and Haste vs Crit all you want.  In the grand scheme, it doesn't matter right now, and it'll matter less when they remove Haste breakpoints in WoD. 

 

Just get over it now.

[Omaric 246]

Agreed, but to be fair we do put a decent amount of focus on Mastery being the best stat, which leads people to think that there is something important to this secondary stat business.  If I went Haste >>>>> Crit > mastery as Destro I think I'd probably see a noticeable drop in my DPS.

[Zagam 1,982]

Sure, but there is a general idea of stats.  Then there are those who go 'my DPS sucks, should I switch my reforges?'  Those are the troublemakers.  It's easy to say Mastery is king, the rest are up to you.  That's all that needs to be said.  Unfortunately, we start talking about all this other shit that gets in the way of what is important. 

 

I can't wait.  Haste breakpoints are going away.  Hit and Expertise are gone.  Soon the only questions people will be able to ask are about fight mechanics!  This makes me so happy! 

 

And the ocassional numbnut who asks for a BiS list, particularly those players who aren't even clearing normals. 

[Vipples 5]

Sure, but there is a general idea of stats.  Then there are those who go 'my DPS sucks, should I switch my reforges?'  Those are the troublemakers.  It's easy to say Mastery is king, the rest are up to you.  That's all that needs to be said.  Unfortunately, we start talking about all this other shit that gets in the way of what is important. 

 

I can't wait.  Haste breakpoints are going away.  Hit and Expertise are gone.  Soon the only questions people will be able to ask are about fight mechanics!  This makes me so happy! 

 

And the ocassional numbnut who asks for a BiS list, particularly those players who aren't even clearing normals. 

 

Have they released any details about how breakpoints are going away? There were blue tweets yesterday claiming that even with the breakpoints going away, that more haste would equal more ticks for dots. How can there not be a breakpoint if thats still the case? If dots still have ticks, and haste can lead to more ticks; how can you not have breakpoints? Would that mean partial ticks? In the case of partial/fractional ticks, wouldn't it just be better to recast and clip the dot before the final fractional tick? 

[Liquidsteel 279]

Based on how much haste you have, you will gain a "partial tick" when the dot has run its original duration (so if you extend it with pandemic it would gain the partial tick half way through).

 

Hopefully it will scale linearly with haste but if it turns out these partial ticks have certain thresholds all hell will break loose lol.

[Vipples 5]

Yo dawg, we heard you like breakpoints, so we put breakpoints in your breakpoints so you can tick while you tick!

[Zagam 1,982]

Here's how it'll work (I got some insider info):

 

Right now, your Immolate lasts 15 seconds with a 3 second interval.  That means you get 5 ticks.  Any amount of Haste reduces the interval, which in turn reduces the total overall amount.  This means that a 2.9 interval makes the entire duration last 14.5 seconds.  With enough Haste, your interval becomes that which is less than the gap between the total duration and the original duration.  For example, if your Haste brought the interval to 2 seconds, you'd have the total duration be 10 seconds.  However, because the total duration is more than 2 seconds less than the original duration of 15 seconds, you add ticks.  In this case, you'd add 2 ticks to get to a total of 7 ticks that last 14 seconds.  Getting the additional ticks at certain amounts of Haste has been termed "Haste Breakpoints" and has been an integral part of DoTs and HoTs for quite some time. 

 

With snapshotting and Pandemic, things changed a bit for Warlocks, but the principle remains.  In the future, the maximum duration will stay the same ALWAYS.  Immolate will ALWAYS be exactly 15 seconds.  But let's say your interval is 2 seconds.  You'd get 7 ticks of normal Immolate and 1 tick of half a tick.  Think of the partial tick as a 'remainder' from long division you did in grade school.  If you have .5 seconds left from a 2 second interval, you'll get a DoT tick equivalent to 25% of a normal tick. 

 

This will simplify Haste a great deal and make it linear, much like it is with Mastery and Crit in that each additional point gives you more value without putting an emphasis on any one amount.

[Maevisten 0]

Sorry for making your eyes sore.  :)

 

I was just adding the comment about the expertise gems for those that are trying to gain haste to reach a breakpoint without having to give up mastery in the process.

[Mokrengar 0]

Please don't go linking SimC at me. It's almost as bad as beginning a sentence with "but Ask Mr. Robot says..."

 

Shadowflame is nice, but what exactly is an extra 1300 haste going to get me? If I'm already setting myself at a breakpoint, then I want nothing but mastery after that. I'm not gaining mastery by using exp gems, I'm gaining more haste. Therefore, useless.

 

 

 

You failed to consider the effect that haste has on your fury generated per second; for shadowbolt/SF it is a flat modifier. At the 14880 breakpoint, you also gain a extra doom tick on fights where bloodlust is used on the pull (on top of all the other breakpoints, all of which garner fury). Having fury to spend as a demonology warlock is integral to achieving good numbers; coincidentally, the spec plays beatifully at high haste.

 

I of course leave open my conclusions to doubt. These thoughts on acquiring a sufficient amount of haste are simply done by looking at the concepts and their effects on a demonology warlock's dps (just a touch of analytical work); I only have my numbers to support my conclusions and anecdotal evidence. But is it not the dream to not use simulationcraft? hehe.

[Cataylst 0]

"13900 Rating - Warforged/Heroic Amplification (7%)"

 

Is this haste raiting before or after raid buffs?

[Zagam 1,982]

It's the amount BEFORE you equip the trinket.  Your tooltip updates with the trinket equipped. 

[Cataylst 0]

So if i have normal WF PBI (567 ilvl), 13775 is the haste break point I want to reach before I equip PBI. This is with the 5% raid haste buff i assume?

Edited January 16, 2014 by Cataylst