5.4 Demonology Tips and Quirks

[Liquidsteel 279]

Yeah should have clarified; I was talking about a full haste set up in a predominantly single target scenario. I haven't played Demo much in AoE fights. I do still believe that Haste is the way to go for pure ST, albeit the only fight this really applies is Iron Jugg. 

 

Check her rank one on that fight though, she gets tricks almost on cooldown, and her BBoY procs lined up incredibly well, with almost a 30% uptime throughout the fight.

 

Regardless, I see how my post came across and that was not my intention.

 

The more haste you have the more ToC devalues compared to your other stats. I dropped my haste down to 8.1k and dumped more into crit a couple hours ago so will test that the next time I jump into farm, which admittedly is quite rare at the moment. Only do the last 2-3 bosses most weeks these days.

[Zagam 1,982]

No worries mate - I enjoy debate, particularly with a spec that most can't play to a high level.  This is why Locky and I sat at target dummies for 2 hours working kinks out and trying different things before we go into raid on Tuesday.

 

25 mans have SO many opportunities for things to change.  25s have more things alive longer which means DoT and AoE stuff gets to do more damage.  She was pretty much the only one I could reference using ToC like I do.  I will still prioritize ToC over SF except when big procs are up even at 13.5k Haste.  ToC still gains the benefit of a lowered GCD, but dumping down to 8.1k Haste feels dirty to me.  I'll try both eventually.

[Soulzar 42]

With this weeks clear I finally got the rest of my tier I needed for my haste off set.  I have not raided yet with it but just from testing on dummies ...I love high haste demo!  

 

Really hope I can get BBoY next week, could probably make the 22k break point with my haste set.

[Liquidsteel 279]

I did a few pulls on the dummy with 8.1k haste and wanted to smash my face into my keyboard. Feels way too slow. 14.8k as troll was my preferred set up before I discovered full haste.

 

Regarding ToC vs Soul Fire, I still think you should hold off with spending MC charges except in Meta (if by fishing for 2pc you meant casting them outside meta) regardless of how much haste you run*. There was a spreadsheet somewhere on MMO-C which showed the cut off point where Soul Fire becomes better to cast in meta than caster form, and it was around 6k haste.

 

Also, is meta uptime something that we should definitely strive to be high? I mean, as long as you don't waste Fury, isn't it irrelevant? I'd argue (and this is just gut feeling no maths) that you could even be spending too long in Meta form. If you're casting ToC too much you're wasting time where you could be generating Fury.

 

My rule of thumb is to only be in Meta for trinkets/cooldowns and to weave HoG. I aim to burn as much fury as possible under trinkets, and for HoG weaving will only stay in for a few GCD's unless I need to bleed some fury.

 

*My personal exception to this is to bleed excess MC charges in between HoG casts, and obviously before hitting 25%.

[Zagam 1,982]

I aim for 40%+.  This is typically done with proper play and weaving.  Sometimes, I stay in Meta during movement phases.  It's hard to justify only going into Metamorphosis during procs or cooldowns when part of the awesomeness of the spec is being able to maintain a high level of DPS while moving instead of defaulting to KJC or having to use Fel Flame.

 

My only nuance with saying SF > ToC for all situations is that SF can't proc the 4pc bonus.  With limited ToC uses, you're negating the need for the 4pc at all.  Personally, I find the free Chaos Waves to be a huge bonus, especially if they splash onto secondary targets.  When my 2pc SF proc isn't up, I'm fishing for 4pc bonuses.  Even if it's not 100% optimal, it's more FUN that way to me.  Losing 0.5 or 1.0% of my DPS because of going ToC over SF isn't going to really make me lose sleep.

[Soulzar 42]

When the theorycrafting was released on SF over ToC in meta the primary basis for it was that SoulFire was highest DMG per fury and that we shouldn't be focused on how long we spend in meta, but how much fury we can convert to dmg during the course of a fight.  Less time in meta dumping fury means more time in caster generating fury to spend.

 

Using ToC in meta since SF doesnt proc 4p makes sense.....  however Soulfire in Caster does not proc 4p either, so SB makes sense.

 

Biggest thing I noticed with the higher haste build (14.8k shadowflame) was the number of Imps/MC charges i was getting.  Anything multi target and i''ll cap MC charges between procs if I don't spend some in caster.

[senorpapel 0]

Havn't raided demo since cata, but plan on going back to it come draenor, and i was wondering if using immolation aura and staying in melee during fight is still viable.

[Elro 47]

I just went to full demo this last week, because while I know destro is king for most of the fights, I just got too bored with it. Running just over 13k haste atm (highest I could get it *twitch*), with just over 11k mastery and somewhere between 3-4k crit. I've been going with the whole SF > ToC in meta, unless there's more than one target stacked up. Then, the chance for Chaos Waves is just too attractive to ignore.

 

So far, I've run 3 of the first 4 bosses on Heroic 10man, save Protectors. Immerseus is ridiculous for HG+MF+Immo Aura on the adds, and the split phase adds melt after a few ToC casts. Norushen isn't so bad, until you go to the other realm, though that might just be me screwing up. Feels so slow compared to destro. Still working on Sha, but the cleave on the Reflections is wonderful, get two HGs on them and you have a boatload of DF to spend. I'll try Protectors next Tuesday and see how that goes...can't be worse than my fail Affliction attempt :P

 

I'll try prioritizing ToC over SF in meta when procs/DS aren't running and let you know what happens. Damn it feels good to be a demon again.

[Soulzar 42]

Protectors is my fav Demo fight in the zone.    With the high haste build and multi target it feels like UVLS Demo, when you cast nothing but soulfire and are swimming in fury and surrounded by little friends.  Mannoroths fury during Rook/Sun specials, yum.

Edited May 16, 2014 by Soulzar

[Elro 47]

I'm with Zagam on this one, using ToC more makes the spec so much more fun, and I love the mobility, particularly since I was doing Heroic 10man Sha of Pride, and had to dance like a madman. Altered my setup slightly to get more mastery, so I'm 13k haste and mastery, with 3k crit. It feels very smooth and natural. However, I feel like I might've dumped too many MC charges in caster form :/

[Djargo 4]

Figured i'd try out good ol' demo again aswell. It feels abit weird playing it, after such a long break from the spec. Really missing the long dots. Is imp swarm glyph still a thing? With meta, troll berserking, 11k haste and no lust i still get my cooldown down to 58sec, which seems pretty good. 

 

i'm also not too sure what stats seem to be the best for demo. Currently i got a lot of crit and mastery on my gear from playing destro, but i'm guessing mastery is still the best stat, and then some haste cap. The highest amount of haste i can reach atm without loosing mastery is 11,2k. That's  with 22,3k mastery and 6,1k crit

 

The opener without t15 seems tough on fury aswell, especially now when im trying to get a SF proc in the opener.

Edited May 23, 2014 by Djargo

[Zagam 1,982]

Figured i'd try out good ol' demo again aswell. It feels abit weird playing it, after such a long break from the spec. Really missing the long dots. Is imp swarm glyph still a thing? With meta, troll berserking, 11k haste and no lust i still get my cooldown down to 58sec, which seems pretty good. 

 

i'm also not too sure what stats seem to be the best for demo. Currently i got a lot of crit and mastery on my gear from playing destro, but i'm guessing mastery is still the best stat, and then some haste cap. The highest amount of haste i can reach atm without loosing mastery is 11,2k. That's  with 22,3k mastery and 6,1k crit

If you're a Troll and a master at snapshotting Imp Swarm with Tempus Repit and Dark Soul, then it can be a small DPS gain.

 

As mentioned before, gameplay will always outplay your secondary stats.  If you've mastered the class and expect your stats to make a small difference, then there is a lot of discussion on Haste vs Mastery.  Some are stacking Haste...some are stacking Mastery.  Personally, I go with 15.2k Haste and the rest Mastery (20.5k) for a very good flow to things.  If the highest Haste you can get is 11.2k, then stick to the 8.4k cap and push the rest into other stuff.  Otherwise, try to push for 14.9k.  It's ok to lose a little Mastery.

[Liquidsteel 279]

I run Mastery > Haste > Crit. In terms of Demonology, from what I've found, Haste is the best for Single Target.

 

Mastery gains value the more you get to AoE.

 

I'm at the point where I can't be bothered reforging/gemming between specs, so Mastery > Haste > Crit is a one size fits all that benefits me. 21.6k Mastery and 15.5k Haste.

 

I did try 22k haste with like 13k mastery a month or so ago, which also played well in single target, but required me to actually gem haste, which is something I don't want to do to be honest. The difference is like 5k in sims when im simming at 480k. Not worth it.

 

Crit is still a great stat for fury generation, but I prefer haste, as do many warlocks I've spoken with. 

 

Also don't think about swapping mastery for haste as sacrificing anything. Both stats are great, they have their strengths in different scenarios.

[Calol 5]

I was gonna run Demo for Blackfuse and Paragon farm tonight but I was looking over the guide and it says run haste gems.. if I do that I'll lose around 4kish mastery dropping me to about 12k and put me around 20k haste. That doesn't seem quite right. Any input?

[Liquidsteel 279]

Haste vs Mastery for Demo is the same as Haste vs Crit for Destruction.

 

How much you have of each largely comes down to preference, but also on how much AoE you get to do. Haste benefits your overall sustained damage and is great on Single Target, whereas Mastery is king in burst AoE situations, and excels if your guild allows you a large slice of the pie on stuff like the Reflections on Sha of Pride.

 

There are many people who run 22k+ Haste and do just fine.

 

There are also people who run as low as 8k haste whilst favouring Crit, and also do very well.

 

You need to find the right balance which suits you as a player. I personally would never go below 14880 haste, and did terribly when I tried out the low haste build. To each his own.

 

Never think of it as sacrificing Mastery for Haste, you're merely specializing a bit differently. 

 

Edit: Also seriously? I literally scrolled up one post and found I'd already typed this out over a month ago. #spoonfeeding.

Edited July 16, 2014 by Liquidsteel

[Zagam 1,982]

Edit: Also seriously? I literally scrolled up one post and found I'd already typed this out over a month ago. #spoonfeeding.

Big thread - I'm happy to see more Demo interest - aren't you?

[Liquidsteel 279]

I suppose. it was just a knee-jerk reaction to typing it out and realising the exact same response was sitting right above it.

[Calol 5]

I suppose. it was just a knee-jerk reaction to typing it out and realising the exact same response was sitting right above it.

yeah I was in a rush and didn't scroll through the page I just posted since I had to run. My bad

[Kazistrasz 216]

I just did Demo for Paragons last night. I was playing around with it, and I honestly found I liked using Mannoroth's for the fight -- not for damage, but to use with Hellfire when Parasites and Kunchongs are out to quickly build more DF to get ready for a burst. If you can get it with a meta gem proc, especially, it's quick DF gen.

[Zagam 1,982]

Demo doesn't provide the snap burst needed on certain phases of the fight like Kuchongs and Korven/Xaril burns.  A majority of Kaz's damage was off the main target with Felstorm, Corruption, Shadowflame, and Doom - so his DPS is artificially high.  Doom sounds like a good choice to slam up on other targets in hopes that you proc an Imp, but every 4 Dooms is 5 ToCs that coulda been landed on your primary target.  It's a fight that's easy to pad, but if you look at effective DPS at certain parts of the fight, Destruction is just far easier to pull out the damage you need.  Sitting on 4 Burning Embers when a burn comes up is far more reliable than waiting on Dark Soul or timing it instead of using on CD.

 

Best target to see something like this is Xaril since you kill him as soon as he lands and there's no opportunity to multi-DoT him like the rest: http://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/VCWak8vPgcYBDRpH#type=damage-done&target=324

 

I even dealt with an orange circle and being pinched off by a shitty placed Amber.  This is Affliction and Demonology's shortfall - if you need snap damage on something in a short period of time in a reliable fashion outside of the opener, Destruction is where it's at. 

[Kazistrasz 216]

To be honest, there's a lot of that fight that I could have gotten better with a bit more practice. I'm not saying it's not worse than Destro when you need to be able to burst, but it can do better than I did with a bit more work and planning. It's why I was using MF with Hellfire, to help be ready to burst more when needed and to compensate for not planning it as well.

[Liquidsteel 279]

I feel Demonology is actually really good on Paragons in bursty moments.

 

The amount of Molten Core charges and sheer Fury generation is insane. 

 

Rolling Doom and Corruption (plus Shadowflame) on multiple targets does indeed provide a lot of padding, but I was constantly needing to bleed excess fury and capping my MC charges.

 

I've done the fight twice as Demo and unfortunately died both times, but below is is the log to when we first did it.

 

http://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/qKvGHDcN6g13ax8X#fight=9&type=damage-done&target=279

 

Not exactly far off the top on damage there.

 

Also I noticed you didn't bloodlust on Xaril. I feel Affliction and Demonology benefit more from Bloodlust than Destruction does, so had you bloodlusted on Xaril, I'm sure locky would have been a bit closer.

 

Still, you were all within 3.5M damage, as opposed to the hunter :)

[Zagam 1,982]

Not sure what Fortyz was doing.  Our Hunters derped a lot this week, as did a majority of our raiders.  They all took a mental vacation.

 

We don't Bloodlust on Xaril because we typically kill him before he does a mechanic.  Referencing this week's failathon, we had one.  We use Bloodlust on Kaz'tik because fuck kuchongs.  Also, it gives the healers and tanks an external CD to assist with Ka'roz's massive melee swings, Kil'ruk's shenanigans, and the kuchongs.

 

I'm sure Demo could be played well, but analyzing it from a DPS perspective (on this fight only) is largely insufficient.  I care about who did enough damage during each time period.  We all know it's not a bad spec - I just think on this fight, your 6 digit DPS number is much more inflated than it appears.  Even on your log, a Destro was about 3-4M ahead of you, which is the difference between me and Kaz.  So for those two logs, results are relatively consistent.  RNG ties into Demo pretty intensely - I know on Malkorok, with a properly set up amount of DF, I actually spike higher at the 2:00 mark than I do at the beginning of the fight due to ramp up.  I think on my 520-530k parse on Malk, my intro spike was around 900k but my 2:00-2:15 spike was over 1.3M.  Demo has its ST burst capabilities, but it's tied to procs.  Destro can do it better without procs.

[Soulzar 42]

http://www.warcraftlogs.com/rankings/character/77741/5/#boss=1598

 

Any of you more familiar with WLogs able to tell me what the hell is going on here?

 

Last weeks Protectors kill I did 620k dps which would have been good enough for 5th, however for some reason it ranked me 20th at 557k.

 

You can click the Rank 20 557k link and it takes you to the parse of 620k

 

Did something bug, or am I derping?  It was my first week with BBoY and I was super excited about the massive boost over KTT!

Edited July 17, 2014 by Soulzar

[Liquidsteel 279]

Shows me that you have 610k parse above the 557k one.