5.4 Demonology Tips and Quirks

[Nytemare 2]

If you continue to mash Soul Fire until you get a proc, you will be terrible.  Read the tooltip for what it does without Molten Core, let alone the shitty damage it does in caster form.

 

Demo can reforge any way and do the same amount of damage.  If you look at some fights, three top Demo parses have a Crit heavy build, a Mastery heavy build, and a Haste heavy build.  As I always say, it's not your stats that cause your DPS - you cause your DPS.

 

I read soul fire, just wondering if I suppose to get that proc before I move on. If it so shitty why even precast it before pull? Are we hoping RNG is on our side at the start and we get the proc?

 

Good to know Demo can use any build. This saved me some time on having to try and build a demo set. I can just use my Destro set which is Mastery build and play demo on fights that are snooze fest, so I can practice without hurting my raid. Only thing I need to replace from my destro set is KTT and use my BBOY I got until 6.0 right?

[Zagam 1,982]

If it so shitty why even precast it before pull?

Because it's free!  I'm not even sure why this has to be explained.  It's a pre-cast.  Your other choice is to stand there and twiddle your thumbs.

 

Are we hoping RNG is on our side at the start and we get the proc?

No, we're actually hoping it doesn't proc because we're strong and independent Warlocks who don't need no procs.

 

Only thing I need to replace from my destro set is KTT and use my BBOY I got until 6.0 right?

Yes.

[Janglybits 1]

No, we're actually hoping it doesn't proc because we're strong and independent Warlocks who don't need no procs.

 

 

Just received funny glances at work.  I read this and LOL'd loudly.

[Lockybalboa 618]

No, we're actually hoping it doesn't proc because we're strong and independent Warlocks who don't need no procs.

 

 

[Nytemare 2]

How much DF should I burn in meta when Dark Soul if still on CD?

 

When I pop HoG after the opener am I suppose to always pop meta so it get buffed? Or is it better to just wait until you got 2 charges before using HoG?

 

right now I have AD so I been do the opener and only popping the second DS once I rebuilt up to 800 DF after I used all during the opener. Is this correct?

Edited September 27, 2014 by Nytemare

[Kazistrasz 216]

 

How much DF should I burn in meta when Dark Soul if still on CD?

Enough to avoid capping again.

When I pop HoG after the opener am I suppose to always pop meta so it get buffed? Or is it better to just wait until you got 2 charges before using HoG?

Why would you go into meta to buff a single stack of Shadowflame instead of waiting to buff a double stack of Shadowflame? That's saying, "hey look, I could have all this extra bonus damage, but instead I'm going to choose to only have this tiny damage and maybe I'll still kill the boss and look good."

right now I have AD so I been do the opener and only popping the second DS once I rebuilt up to 800 DF after I used all during the opener. Is this correct?

 

AD, like everything else about demo, should revolve around procs. It's not about how much DF you have.

[Liquidsteel 279]

Think of it like a balancing act, Nytmare. You're once again getting too focussed on "what is the EXACT rule for this mechanic".

 

Like Destruction, as Kazi said above, you need to make sure that you build and maintain enough Fury and MC charges to be able to react to trinket procs, and to your pre-planned 2 minute Dark Soul and PBI dump. Fury is exactly the same as Burning Embers. Just like for Destruction you hover between 3-4 embers for a trinket proc or Dark Soul, so too for Demonology you try to hover around 800-1000 Fury and 7-9 stacks of Molten Core.

 

You always want to go HoG - filler - filler - HoG - Meta for your shadowflame weaving. With this tactic you get almost a full duration on 1 stack of Shadowflame, followed by a full duration by a Meta buffed 2 stack Shadowflame. If you jump into Meta at this point with 800+ Fury, then feel free to chuck out a few ToC's or a couple Soul Fire's to bring you back down so you don't cap.

 

It's a balancing act and there are far too many rules or adaptations to those rules to describe everything. I urge you to check out Zinnin's guide and watch some of his past streams (if they are available). That helped me massively in my quest to better myself as a Demonology player and I think I'm a pretty good example of someone who did just that, if I may say so myself. 

[Nytemare 2]

HoG part is what I do at the start, but from there I didn't know if I was supposed to wait until I had two charges of HoG or use them as they came. Whole reason I asked about doing meta after HoG is if I supposed to use them as charge complete, then poping in Meta makes them do more damage then not popping into meta.

 

Ok 800-1K DF and wait for procs got it. 

 

Ok I see if I can find his guide. I was just reading Zag guide he wrote up and trying to learn, but I checkout of this guys, and see if he has any streams/videos I could watch.

Edited September 27, 2014 by Nytemare

[Liquidsteel 279]

Never just cast one HoG. Wait til you have 1 charge and ~4 seconds left on the second charge. 

[Kazistrasz 216]

You have approximately 5.5 seconds after you cast your first Hand of Gul'dan to cast the second one. How much you can fit between depends on your haste.

[Liquidsteel 279]

I knew someone would call me out on that.

 

Very valid point though. I tend to do two Shadowbolts or 3x Soul Fire's with my 15k haste build. With a haste proc that can become 3x shadowbolts.

 

I just find it easier to tell newer players to stick to 2 casts in between. You're right, though.

[Zagam 1,982]

For 5.4, Shadowflame can be buffed by casting HoG and shifting into Metamorphosis.  You should never do this with a single stack.

 

In 6.0, Hand of Gul'dan isn't buffed by Metamorphosis anymore.  Buffing Shadowflame is not done by going into Metamorphosis.  Just focus on getting the max out of Shadowflame by making sure you get your 2nd stack at as high of an uptime as you can.

[Nytemare 2]

For 5.4, Shadowflame can be buffed by casting HoG and shifting into Metamorphosis.  You should never do this with a single stack.

 

In 6.0, Hand of Gul'dan isn't buffed by Metamorphosis anymore.  Buffing Shadowflame is not done by going into Metamorphosis.  Just focus on getting the max out of Shadowflame by making sure you get your 2nd stack at as high of an uptime as you can.

 

so even in 6.0 you use HoG only when you be able to double stack it? Does the 4pc give it own version of HoG so you end up having your two different HoG debuff (yours two stack, and two from set bonus) or are they all combined?

 

Also I been reading Zinnin guide over at MMO-C and I little confused. am I not suppose to use ToC unless new extended corruption going to be stronger? or am I suppose to use it anytime I in Meta and have no MC /Have 2pc running? I applied a corruption at 9 stack of BBoY (using ToC) and Doom at 10, but then I noticed damage debuff said changed once those procs were up and I used ToC as a filler again. So little confused on if I supposed to be using ToC anytime or only if new extended corruption is stronger/about to fall off.

 

He also his guide uses a different opener then this one, so which one is better opener?

Edited September 27, 2014 by Nytemare

[Liquidsteel 279]

It basically does a normal HoG so it works with your normal Shadowflame debuff.

 

I honestly wouldn't pay much attention to it at your level. You're trying to run before you can walk here. I know that your next question will be should you monitor this effect and use it stack or weave with your standard charges, but honestly just focus on getting your Fury management down and reacting to procs/preplanning for Dark Soul or AoE burns properly.

 

You're gonna overload yourself.

[Nytemare 2]

220K is what I manage to do so far in Demo, still got more work but getting there. (using my destro gear for it (expect I replace my 4/4 KTT with my 0/4 BBoy).

 

If I am in a cast of Soul Fire when one I just used hit and procs the 2pc do I let the cast finish or do I cancel it and move on? 

 

GrimOfService, Felstorm, and higher dot up time where I need to improve. I notice with GrimofServ if I use Felstorm before Services felguard get to the target, he doesn't use felstorm with the other.

 

I got HoG shadow weaving down, after your post and reading his guide and using his WA I was able to get it down,

 

My question was am I supposed to be using ToC if I not use MC charges even if the extended corruption will become weaker than the one I had?

 

Also regarding learning how to play a spec, I always go for the Advance/Pro so I learn it right first time around. Sure it lot to take in at first and do, but if you can learn at the pro/advance level your better off.

 

Take my Frost mage, minute I hit 90 I looking up a guide, and instantly went with the Haste build, and taught myself how to master it, sure it was hard. Many mistakes were made, low dps, but once I it became second nature that all changed. I always looking for a challenge.

 

Why I relearning Demo now at complex level and not waiting until 6.0/WoD and learn it when it becomes easier then now.

 

Here what I got down for Demo:

 

Fury Management. Once you said treat it like destro I understood it and got it down

ShadowWeaving - thanks to your guys replies got it down.

 

What I need to work on still:

 

Soul Fire MC Proc - mostly only if I should cancel a Soul fire in mid cast if last one I sent proc the 2pc

If I supposed to use ToC regardless of corruption power

better at keeping both dots running (more important corruption as I seem to left that one fall off the most)

better as using felstorm on cd

Edited September 27, 2014 by Nytemare

[Kazistrasz 216]

The ONLY reason you should ever cancel a cast at the level you're playing is if you start a cast and need to move out of something that will go off and likely kill you before it finishes (e.g., trying to start a Chaos Bolt and Garrosh decides you're a great place to center Annihilate). NEVER cancel your casts. When the day comes that you find yourself playing at a higher level where you are no longer asking us questions because you can answer them for yourself, then you can re-examine this subject.

 

It's okay if your Felguard and Serviceguard don't use Felstorm at the exact same moment. It's just AI stuff you can't control.

 

Corruption's damage isn't high enough to merit worrying about overwriting a snapshot by using TOC.  Most of the situations in which you would use TOC, your other option is simply not casting a spell or popping out of meta and casting Fel Flame.

 

It's always easier, and better, to start slow and build up. Get the beginner stuff down, then you can work your way up. Rome wasn't built in a day, and it certainly wasn't built from the top down. Foundations first, then you can achieve greatness. When you skip building a solid foundation, you end up with a fucked-up, retarded looking POS like the Leaning Tower of Pisa. Listen to us; we tell you things, because we know it works. Your frost mage has all the complexity of the post-it note sitting on my desk. You're talking about a real spec on a real class, here. You can choose to ignore the advice of some of the top warlocks in the game (not including myself in that), or you can choose to make your life harder.

[Nytemare 2]

I ask these question because I have not done Demo since WoTLK, I been destro. I am rusty as all hell when it comes to playing Demo at the high level. If this was Destro I would know the answers to my question before asking them.  Sometimes I like to get feedback but that different then what I doing right now.

 

So let try it this way. Demo uses MC charges to try and get 2pc bonus (which destro doesn't have to worry about). Guide says to never clip proc. So with that in mind we are left with the following. Continue the cast on Soul Fire when last one proc the bonus and maybe clip the proc (which is a NO NO), or cancel the cast and start a SB or whatever you never spell was supposed to be, So I reached out to Demo experts to find the path that lesser of two evil.

 

as a Destro lock I know when boss is going to do it stuff, so I know when I can stand and cast a CB and not die or have to cancel it. However this is not the same thing, since you want to max your GCD you don't cast soul fire then wait for it to travel and hit to see if it procs, So either Demo Soul Fire weaves like shadowflame or we chain cast SF while we have MC and risk clipping the proc. 

 

I fine with either, I just like little clarification from the experts on the right way high level raid with demo. I don't know how you like to learn a spec, but I prefer learning a spec the correct way the first time, then to learn it wrong way and have to relearn the right way later.

Edited September 28, 2014 by Nytemare

[Rrasis 13]

Hey Nytemare, you may want to consider starting your own topic for some of these questions. Rather than adding to the current pinned topics as you have been. From what I've seen you're mostly asking for peoples help and not actually contributing constructively to the thread.

 

When do you create your own topic It would be helpful to link some logs of your attempted play, people will be able to look at those and give you a much better idea of the areas you're needing help in.

[Nytemare 2]

Hey Nytemare, you may want to consider starting your own topic for some of these questions. Rather than adding to the current pinned topics as you have been. From what I've seen you're mostly asking for peoples help and not actually contributing constructively to the thread.

 

When do you create your own topic It would be helpful to link some logs of your attempted play, people will be able to look at those and give you a much better idea of the areas you're needing help in.

 

Thanks for the suggestion, unfortunately the first page does say this guide is to help you get a better grasp on how to better play your demo lock. From my view that just what I am doing with these questions.Trying to learn/get a better grasp on how to be a demo lock.

 

I read the pages, read the replies and how now started to get it down. Still need to work on dot management / felstorm but rest I have expect for Soul Fire. That where we are at right now, trying to understand last little bit of Soul Fire rule.

 

Regarding log no need as I not asking how to improve my dps, I still trying to just learn how to play.

Edited September 28, 2014 by Nytemare

[Lockybalboa 618]

Regarding log no need as I not asking how to improve my dps, I still trying to just learn how to play.

 

 

It's common for people to think they are doing X, Y, Z correct and they only need help with A, B, C when really they are doing Y and Z wrong, C and X well,  A totally spot on, and ignoring B. That's why we ask for logs. 

 

For every 10 people that have told me "I'm following the rotation in the guide and I think I have a really good grasp on it" 9 of them are missing core mechanics that with 1 change increases their DPS by 10-20%.

[Nytemare 2]

It's common for people to think they are doing X, Y, Z correct and they only need help with A, B, C when really they are doing Y and Z wrong, C and X well,  A totally spot on, and ignoring B. That's why we ask for logs. 

 

For every 10 people that have told me "I'm following the rotation in the guide and I think I have a really good grasp on it" 9 of them are missing core mechanics that with 1 change increases their DPS by 10-20%.

 

Don't get me wrong I understand that. I posted logs back in Destro one and you guys pointed out mech I was missing. Currently just trying to get all the rules down and get better at watching stuff. I just doing test dummies right now as I work out a key layout I find that works. 

 

Last log show me letting corruption fall off, and not use felstorm on CD. Doom I have at 90%+, just corruption either I going to fast and don't apply it like I thought, or I don't pop in meta and use TOC in time to keep it from falling off. Felstorm like Eng Tinker - need to pop it more by watching its cd better.

 

Currently trying to get SF rules down so I know how to use it right. Here what I am doing with SF now. Please correct me if I overlooked something.

 

Precast it

Use Soul Fire over SB if I got MC and 2pc bonus is not up

Use Soul Fire to not cap 10 MC

Use Soul fire in Meta + DS if I will not pop out before DS is up

Use Soul Fire w/MC in Meta for DF dump to avoid capping

 

SF chaining or SF weaving? do I chain SF until I out of MC procs or until I get 2set bonus proc (whichever comes first), or do I weave SF with like 1-2x SB/TOC / other spells to give each SF time to travel and see if 2 piece bonus procs?

Edited September 28, 2014 by Nytemare

[Liquidsteel 279]

You're over thinking Soul Fire and the 2pc bonus again.

 

Treat Soul Fire the same as Chaos Bolt. You only want to be casting it inside Meta with a cooldown or trinket proc up if you can help it.

 

You definitely do NOT want to be fishing for 2pc procs in caster form and wasting your valuable MC procs UNLESS you're capping and can't afford to burn them in Meta. It's a DPS loss to use MC stacks outside Meta.

 

Similarly, overwriting the proc is a non factor. You want to be casting more Meta Soul Fire's during the proc anyway because of the damage boost.

[Nytemare 2]

You're over thinking Soul Fire and the 2pc bonus again.

 

Treat Soul Fire the same as Chaos Bolt. You only want to be casting it inside Meta with a cooldown or trinket proc up if you can help it.

 

You definitely do NOT want to be fishing for 2pc procs in caster form and wasting your valuable MC procs UNLESS you're capping and can't afford to burn them in Meta. It's a DPS loss to use MC stacks outside Meta.

 

Similarly, overwriting the proc is a non factor. You want to be casting more Meta Soul Fire's during the proc anyway because of the damage boost.

 

Now I am confused as you say one thing, but guide says another. Which rule do I follow?

 

It highly recommended that you spend your time casting  Soul Fire as long as you have  Molten Core charges to get your 2pc to proc and then switch to  Shadow Bolt, or  Metamorphosis: Touch of Chaos to proc your 4pc bonus as often as possible.  There's no real change to your rotation from normal except that you'd want to cast  Soul Fire any time you got a  Molten Core proc and didn't have the 2pc buff.

Edited September 28, 2014 by Nytemare

[Lockybalboa 618]

Now I am confused as you say one thing, but guide says another. Which rule do I follow?

 

 

It sounds like all you wanted was for us to repeat what was in the guide. The guide was last updated 13 Jan, 2014. 10 months ago it was the best information we had, then people started getting a lot better gear and testing more and more with demo and we find new things. We don't keep the guides super updated between patches because it's to much work and things change to quickly, the guides are meant to be a quick reference guide - not a max parse walk through.

 

That's why the forums are here and people like myself, Zag, and Liquid put time in here. 

 

You should always assume that experienced, proven, high-end player knowledge > almost a year old guide.

[Nytemare 2]

This is all very confusing, how did Demo go from using SF with MC procs as a filler if not under 2pc bonus (20% damage boost) to only using it if you about to cap mc or only using it if yout got MC + Procs + DF for Meta SF chaining