Helltooth Gargantuan Witch Doctor

[Guest Hello]

59 minutes ago, Arkpit said:

Why are you listing Mantle of Channeling for Zuni btw? I don't see why you would use Firebats in the build?

Vampire bats with provides toughness and more damage than Haunt because Mantle of Channeling is 25% multiplicative and Poisoned Spirit is 20% additive.

59 minutes ago, Arkpit said:

You are also assuming a constant 69% which it isn't. Even with the Belt, it takes time to ramp up the fetish count unless you're running around with a Jerams which you probably aren't so you go in to each rift almost getting oneshotted by the tiniest thing which makes the Firebats odd since it's close range.

Assumptions are a limitation of theory-crafting. If we don't take the maximum number, then what number do we use? Also I don't understand how "Jeram's" (mask or bracer) would help maximise fetishes as quickly as possible. Anyway, the build is close range anyway since enemies need to be within 20 yards to take the extra damage from Confidence Ritual.

59 minutes ago, Arkpit said:

Now there is also the fact that you are comparing "Dmg reduced" with "Reduce dmg done" which isn't the same thing. Say you have 25%+25% addatative dmg reduce, this takes off 25 dmg from 100 and then 25% off 75 compared to reducing the outgoing dmg from the enemy by 25% straight up.

So the Helltooth communing with spirits is stronger than many of the added dmg reduction from other sets much like the passive Bad Medicin also is.

I thought all damage reduction multiplied together unless they added to form a separate category/multiplier like the Zunimassa 4p bonus. Which multiplicative category does Communing With Spirits add to? As far as I'm aware, it is its own multiplier.

59 minutes ago, Arkpit said:

Let's also account for the loss of "Witching Hour" by trading to this build which is quite a significant drop so while yes, the dps is higher for gargs in Zuni set but I still don't see it being worth the drop if safety compared to the amount damage gained.

Dropping CoE/TnT for Unity puts Zunimassa ahead in toughness and I believe it would still have higher dps than Helltooth even with the additional loss of The Witching Hour.

Overall, I don't really see why Helltooth would be played over Zunimassa for a Gargantuan build as the numbers all favour Zunimassa, unlike with the Firebats build where Arachyr trades Helltooth's toughness for damage. With that said, I think the guide should be updated with a simple switch of sets.

[Arkpit 101]

On 2017-04-21 at 8:26 AM, Guest Hello said:

Assumptions are a limitation of theory-crafting. If we don't take the maximum number, then what number do we use?

I always prefer to use the realistic number which isn't the max number in an instance where fetish count will be going up and down so the max number just won't be realistic and ofc it's infinitly different accounting for HC ofc which I'm on but we'll just assume SC for now though.

-"Also I don't understand how "Jeram's" (mask or bracer) would help maximise fetishes as quickly as possible."

Jerams allow 3 quick wall of death in succession which adds 1 fetish per cast.

"Anyway, the build is close range anyway since enemies need to be within 20 yards to take the extra damage from Confidence Ritual."

Aye this would be a preference thing I think since I never use confidence Ritual unless I go Arachyr or Jade but yeah, this is kinda just due to HC play.

"I thought all damage reduction multiplied together unless they added to form a separate category/multiplier like the Zunimassa 4p bonus. Which multiplicative category does Communing With Spirits add to? As far as I'm aware, it is its own multiplier."

It's not that it's a multiplier, but if a dmg taken%+ dmg taken% is additative then the dmg taken% + dmg reduce% is better overall is what I meant.

"Dropping CoE/TnT for Unity puts Zunimassa ahead in toughness and I believe it would still have higher dps than Helltooth even with the additional loss of The Witching Hour."

This is the part I like as well since it works for both SC and HC so I agree for survivability!

I do think a lot of all this comes down to preference in playstyle so there is variences on both sides of survivability and damage with choices that works in favour for the individual player! (Spoken like a true politician >_<)

[Guest Hello]

On 4/22/2017 at 10:13 PM, Arkpit said:

-"Also I don't understand how "Jeram's" (mask or bracer) would help maximise fetishes as quickly as possible."

Jerams allow 3 quick wall of death in succession which adds 1 fetish per cast.

Taking Jeram's Bracers would mean you have to sacrifice Lakumba's Ornament, and I think the toughness loss would be crippling.

Other than that, I enjoyed the constructive discussion we had together, so thank you!

[Guest Truth]

On 4/24/2017 at 2:49 AM, Guest Hello said:

Taking Jeram's Bracers would mean you have to sacrifice Lakumba's Ornament, and I think the toughness loss would be crippling.

Other than that, I enjoyed the constructive discussion we had together, so thank you!

I'd have to agree, there is no way I'd use something over Lakumba's on HC 65+. Maybe for softcore it wouldn't matter. 

[Arkpit 101]

6 hours ago, Guest Truth said:

I'd have to agree, there is no way I'd use something over Lakumba's on HC 65+. Maybe for softcore it wouldn't matter. 

Jerams was only brought up as the example of what could possibly increase the fetish count faster, never that it was a viable choice for the build, sorry if that was not clear ^_^

[Valks 2,375]

Some awesome points from both of you, was great to read through, I must say. Great to see these kind of things in our comment threads! :D

[Guest Veashen]

Not sure if the thread is still open, but I wanted to post about what I found that helps me clear rifts really fast. I use the barber skill for my kania cube. Instead of constant damage it wil explode. Clears wave so fast.

[albabe 33]

On 8/18/2016 at 7:23 PM, Warden said:

There's a mistake in the guide.  You're supposed to wear either the Mask of Jeram or the Tasker and Theo gloves, whichever is rolled better, and then use the other one in the Cube.  When you do this, you only end up wearing five pieces of the Helltooth set.  It says this in the text, but does not show it in the equipment lists.

I'm obviously a bit of an Idiot because I didn't notice this either.  Been playing with the Full Helltooth set AND the Ring of Royal Grandeur  Maybe the guide could be a little more specific for macaroons like me.  Something like, "YOU WILL ONLY BE WEARING 5 OF THE 6 HEELTOOTH SET PIECES.  DON'T BE N IDIOT LIKE AL AND WEAR ALL 6 AND THE Ring of Royal Grandeur!   

[Fablezim 0]

I'm still a little confused about the mechanics of Bane of the Stricken in this build. From what I understand,

1) Pets don't proc this, though they are benefited by it

2) Only player spells do proc this, but not if the damage coefficient is 0%, like Soul Harvest/Languish. Which would mean our only spells that would count are Wall of Death and Piranado.

I guess my question is with "each attack you make"; does that mean 1 WoD cast = 1 stricken stack? Or does stricken stack with ticks from WoD/Necrosis? Rift guardians are definitely still an issue for me in the 70's and aside from the obvious plus from the 25% passive dmg it seems like the build-up of this gem would be very slow (especially if it does NOT proc from ticking damage)

[Guest Hello]

7 hours ago, Fablezim said:

I'm still a little confused about the mechanics of Bane of the Stricken in this build. From what I understand,

1) Pets don't proc this, though they are benefited by it

2) Only player spells do proc this, but not if the damage coefficient is 0%, like Soul Harvest/Languish. Which would mean our only spells that would count are Wall of Death and Piranado.

I guess my question is with "each attack you make"; does that mean 1 WoD cast = 1 stricken stack? Or does stricken stack with ticks from WoD/Necrosis? Rift guardians are definitely still an issue for me in the 70's and aside from the obvious plus from the 25% passive dmg it seems like the build-up of this gem would be very slow (especially if it does NOT proc from ticking damage)

Yes, both of your points are true.

I believe Stricken has an internal cooldown that is based on your attack speed, though I cannot remember the formula.

I do not know if DoTs/Necrosis does stack Stricken, but from my playing experience, this build does have a higher transition point than other builds from Powerful to Stricken, which I estimate to be around the low 80s.

Stricken is still necessary in the higher GRs as RG fights take longer and longer, and a good indicator (though not a hard-fast rule) that you should consider switching Powerful for Stricken is when the Powerful buff drops off before the RG's death.

[Guest Ssilvak]

For the speed farming version : is Tasker and Theo, Mask of Jeram or full Helltooth the BiS ?

According to the author, it is the full Helltooth but I want your opinions guys =)

[Fablezim 0]

11 hours ago, Guest Ssilvak said:

For the speed farming version : is Tasker and Theo, Mask of Jeram or full Helltooth the BiS ?

According to the author, it is the full Helltooth but I want your opinions guys =)

All 3? With speed farming you still wear gloves or helm, cube the other with cubed RoRG. The BiS is whichever item is rolled better :)

[Arkpit 101]

On 2017-06-27 at 3:29 PM, Guest Hello said:

I do not know if DoTs/Necrosis does stack Stricken

Stricken is still necessary in the higher GRs as RG fights take longer and longer, and a good indicator (though not a hard-fast rule) that you should consider switching Powerful for Stricken is when the Powerful buff drops off before the RG's death.

Dots does not stack Stricken, only the initial cast by WoD and Piranado. It may seem slow but like Hello also said, you pretty much need it later on but it should always be noted that Stricken should pretty much never be used before GR 75-80 anyway.

Many make the mistake of equipping stricken right away and go GR50 with it which is not great since it'll barely benefit you. I personally go with Bane of the Powerful up to like 60 since I play HC.

[Guest greyghost]

Hi, first thanks for the guide. I have been a WD from the beginning and have been running this build successfully. I can't seem to play another class. I keep thinking about logging back onto my WD lol.

I have soloed up to 70 but have noticed it getting harder definitely depending on the map.

My question is this: would chilled dogs rune be viable at all for more damage? (Since garg benefits from it? Not sure about hounds.) How much exactly does leeching heal? I'm experimenting with it now and it seems to do more damage but I'm not sure on the math. Obviously you have to be more careful health wise.

Also, I got an ancient 1H with grasp of the dead rune (zombies I think?). How would GotD be in place of Piranhas? Would I be missing out on a lot of damage or just CC?

Thanks!

[Guest gathis]

Am I the only one who has Soul Harvest without stacks after patch (17/7/18)?

[Guest xNeoshadowx]

Was wondering which legendary gems you should be actively leveling first IE. Trapped, Enforcer or Striken/Powerful? (still low GR35-40ish range). I also see from Arkpit that bane of the powerful is recommended over Striken for low GR so should i put time in leveling that whilst also leveling striken?

Another thing is with the Ring of Royal Granduers in the cube, why use both compass rose AND travelers amulet when you technically only need one for the set piece?

Besides the Furnace is there any other recommended cube weapon or is the furnace best all round?

[Arkpit 101]

5 hours ago, Guest xNeoshadowx said:

Was wondering which legendary gems you should be actively leveling first IE. Trapped, Enforcer or Striken/Powerful? (still low GR35-40ish range). I also see from Arkpit that bane of the powerful is recommended over Striken for low GR so should i put time in leveling that whilst also leveling striken?

Another thing is with the Ring of Royal Granduers in the cube, why use both compass rose AND travelers amulet when you technically only need one for the set piece?

Besides the Furnace is there any other recommended cube weapon or is the furnace best all round?

When it comes to leveling gems you can ignore Stricken until you start running GR70+ because you'll never make it worth while in any lower GRs. I never equip or level Stricken until I get up there and when I feel like I start needing it I get it up.

RoRG only works on set that has more than 2 pieces so it does not work with Endless Walk set and the same for Focus/Restraint combo.

Furnace is WDs best progress wpn still and it is right now kinda "meh" compared to what other classes get (Necro gets Corroded Fang which is 200% damage to basically everything).

[Guest xNeoshadowx]

Thanks, though i have another question. When looking at the Arachyr firebats build it showed that the Helltooth set can be used as an 'alternative'. Does that mean that we can use the firebats build with Helltooth on equal standing as the Arachyr set? Also comparing the two which is seen as the better option Gargantuan or Firebats?

 

I know the gargantuans hit hard but pet AI is finicky at best and has led to a few spots of irritation when they attack the wrong TARGET! .....ahem. Anyway is there a secondary belt slot for Garg build? the belt is one of 3 items i haven't been able to get yet (Harvester and furnace being the other two).

Also how does Henri's perquisition work? is it first time per enemy or is there a CD between attacks before it can proc again? (currently use Uhkapian serpent as i dont have Henri yet)

[Arkpit 101]

5 hours ago, Guest xNeoshadowx said:

Does that mean that we can use the firebats build with Helltooth on equal standing as the Arachyr set?

Is short, yes. Helltooth used to be a safer option and back then Arachyr was lacking bit in damage but after the buff to Arachyr I've felt that there is no reason to go with Helltooth if your goal is to play the Firebats build. There are gigantic issues with that build overall though for Hardcore players that doesn't have a support team. Can take that part later.

5 hours ago, Guest xNeoshadowx said:

Also comparing the two which is seen as the better option Gargantuan or Firebats?

You kind of have to make a choice because they are two distinct playstyles and needs a lot of different types of gear.
Gargantuan builds will pretty much always push higher in solo, especially playing hardcore because not only does the gargs hit harder (when they hit a target), but the build is x10 safer.
Firebats is one of the best aoe trashclears in a group when rolled for area damage but is useless for bosses so you need support and single target with you. I did solo HC with Firebats one season and it was very scary. Ykou get oneshotted everytime something hits you and you're not channeling.

5 hours ago, Guest xNeoshadowx said:

Anyway is there a secondary belt slot for Garg build?

Being a HC player I've often opted for String of Ears due to the massive damage reduction if you're caught in melee but it's not very helpful outside HC ad I would aim for Witching Hour all the way with Belt of Transcendance as secondary.

5 hours ago, Guest xNeoshadowx said:

Also how does Henri's perquisition work? is it first time per enemy or is there a CD between attacks before it can proc again?

Only the first hit counts and no internal CD so it is virtually useless on bosses. I've always used Uhkapian myself because it offers solid damage reduction from both trash as well as the entire bossfight. The kitten makes you godlike on trash but if you ever die on hardcore it'll be on a boss anyway ^^

So, I'll end this with saying I've played every possible WD build through season 3-10 and ever since season 6 I try to actively avoid Gargantuan Helltooth like the plague despite it being a top tier build only due to how the terrible AI is and I got so tired of screaming at my pets for always either being at the other side of the screen or just plainly standing around doing nothing at all after a resummon...

I find it much more fun to play the Zunimassa Poison Dart if I want pets with me but my favorite WD playstyle after all this time is definitly Jade Harvester! Mostly because you are in 100% control of what and when you are killing and who doesn't love when half the screen explode? ^^

[Guest jonjw19]

So is there a reason why this is still featured guide (as well as the Darts build) but the Zuni garg build isn't?

Isn't HT Garg just an inferior version of Zuni Garg at this point?

[positiv2 953]

16 hours ago, Guest jonjw19 said:

So is there a reason why this is still featured guide (as well as the Darts build) but the Zuni garg build isn't?

Isn't HT Garg just an inferior version of Zuni Garg at this point?

Zunimassa Gargantuan Witch Doctor is being considered and will likely be added.

[Guest GrizzlyShaman]

How essential is Tasker and Theo? I have been running a Helltooth Garg for this season, and I have been stuck at GR 65. Literally the only thing I am missing on the build is those gloves and I can't seem to get them. Is it possible that I am doing something wrong or is it really those gloves?

[Arkpit 101]

7 hours ago, Guest GrizzlyShaman said:

How essential is Tasker and Theo? 

Very essential and it is because all "Attack speed" on your gear and paragons is translated into pure %damage for pets.

Tasker and Theo on the other hand is the only item that actually increase the attacks speed for your pets and making your gargs attack 50% fasters is just directly translated into 50% damage increase on things like bosses and elites that last a little longer.

[Guest Emphyrio]

 Haven't read all comments, maybe it was mentionned, but obviously put Gargantuan on the left-click mouse button and Wall of Death on a 1-4 hotkey, it's much much more comfortable...

 I play a mix between this build and the acid cloud helltooth build, for speed farming. acid cloud is handy to quickly clear large area of regular mobs (I removed piranhado).

[Arkpit 101]

On ‎2017‎-‎10‎-‎01 at 10:41 PM, Guest Emphyrio said:

maybe it was mentionned, but obviously put Gargantuan on the left-click mouse button and Wall of Death on a 1-4 hotkey, it's much much more comfortable...

I dislike this myself though since the Gargantuan reset is too important to misclick due to me moving with the mouse button while the Wall of Death is on a low CD so it's not so bad to accidentally click it. As with all the placements on buttons, it's all a preference from player to player.