5.4 Destruction Tips and Quirks

[Zilthy 36]

What do you mean I will not generate a DPS variance? so you saying regardless of what I do, I not going to lose or gain any new DPS?

 

Ah ok so you just use it when you can, and take the bonus got it.

 

Side note why does BE look to be best for Horde? Tuaren get the same bonus Dwarf get with the 2% bonus damage if that what going to make Dwarf best for ally.

 

The DPS difference between Crit > Haste, Haste (breakpoint) > Crit > Haste and Haste > Crit is *so* small, you will *never* notice it in your DPS, and you will have no variance because of it.

 

It is less than 0.1% which will amount to be about 400 dps.  Personally, if my dps is so low that I notice 400 dps because of a reforge, I am doing something very, very, very wrong.

 

This is why the debate on haste and crit and breakpoints for Destruction warlocks is pointless.

Edited August 27, 2014 by Zilthy

[Nytemare 2]

Tauren can't be Warlocks

 

So wish they could be. Ah so BE for horde, and Dwarf for ally was directed at being the best race for lock got it.

Edited August 27, 2014 by Nytemare

[Orthios 271]

Unclear why dwarf looks to be best? did I miss something? I know they got 2% bonus crit damage, but sounds like that only good for those classes that base around crit. For a lock would that mean 2% CB damage?

2% crit damage will not give 2% more CB damage due to how CB damage is calculated and how crits work.  CB damage = (2.02 (crit multiplier))*(1+Mastery)*(1+Crit)*(Whatever base ends up getting implemented) vs (2 (crit multiplier))*(1+Mastery)*(1+Crit)*(Base).  The overall gain is 1% CB damage.

Edited August 27, 2014 by Orthios

[Nytemare 2]

2% crit damage will not give 2% more CB damage due to how CB damage is calculated and how crits work.  CB damage = (2.02 (crit multiplier))*(1+Mastery)*(1+Crit)*(Whatever base ends up getting implemented) vs (2 (crit multiplier))*(1+Mastery)*(1+Crit)*(Base).  The overall gain is 1% CB damage.

 

Ah so 1% CB damage is the same thing Worgen have now, so what am I still missing that makes Dwarf in its currently Wod form best ally lock race? There stoneform as always been there, just now can remove the other parts like magic and curses.

 

Or is Dwarf best now because it now gives 1% CB damage increase like Worgen while also given a nice 10% damage reduction cd that Worgen doesn't have?

[Liquidsteel 279]

My brain is melting.

[Orthios 271]

Ah so 1% CB damage is the same thing Worgen have now, so what am I still missing that makes Dwarf in its currently Wod form best ally lock race? There stoneform as always been there, just now can remove the other parts like magic and curses.

 

Or is Dwarf best now because it now gives 1% CB damage increase like Worgen while also given a nice 10% damage reduction cd that Worgen doesn't have?

It will mostly depend on personal preferences.  

 

Take a scenario where you have 25% crit rate (without a racial perk).  This in turn averages a 25% gain in dps, RNG dependent.

With the Worgen perk of +1% crit, this turns into 26% crit, which gives an average of 26% gain.

With the Dwarf perk of +2% crit damage (modifies the crit modifier to 2.02), you get an average of 25% of you attacks critting for 2.02x damage.  This in turn averages out to be 25.5% gain in dps.  In this situation, you would want the Worgen perk.  

 

So, now to find the point at which the two perks give equal bonuses.  Turns out that point is at 50% crit (without racial bonuses).  

Worgens get 51% crit rate which equals 51% dps increase.

Dwarves get 50% crit at 2.02x which is 51% dps increase. 

Both are 1% more than without the bonus.

 

Overall, I would say that Worgens have the advantage until 50% crit, which we likely won't ever see (maybe during the last patch of the expansion when your in BiS, but that's dependent on number tuning).  

[Nytemare 2]

It will mostly depend on personal preferences.  

 

Take a scenario where you have 25% crit rate (without a racial perk).  This in turn averages a 25% gain in dps, RNG dependent.

With the Worgen perk of +1% crit, this turns into 26% crit, which gives an average of 26% gain.

With the Dwarf perk of +2% crit damage (modifies the crit modifier to 2.02), you get an average of 25% of you attacks critting for 2.02x damage.  This in turn averages out to be 25.5% gain in dps.  In this situation, you would want the Worgen perk.  

 

So, now to find the point at which the two perks give equal bonuses.  Turns out that point is at 50% crit (without racial bonuses).  

Worgens get 51% crit rate which equals 51% dps increase.

Dwarves get 50% crit at 2.02x which is 51% dps increase. 

Both are 1% more than without the bonus.

 

Overall, I would say that Worgens have the advantage until 50% crit, which we likely won't ever see (maybe during the last patch of the expansion when your in BiS, but that's dependent on number tuning).  

 

Still leaves the question why in it currently Wod state Dwarf seems to be the best ally lock race, while BE according to Zag going to be horde. Trying to figure out what changes are happen that making the dwarf all sudden looking like the best.

 

If we go off what you said then dwarf is only best if we can reach 50% crit as it equal same perk as worgen while also providing survival cd. Damage Increase + Survival Bonus beats just Damage Increase every time  (if damage increase is equal).

 

I plan to make a Dwarf finally thanks to the new models making them look decent, but wondering why they all sudden looks to be the best ally lock race is all. 

[Orthios 271]

I'll leave it to Liquid to explain his reasoning behind Dwarves being best, but to me it seems that Worgen are from a dps perspective only.  How valuable the survivable cooldown turns out to be can easily sway this in favor of Dwarves before 50% crit.  

[Zagam 1,982]

This is all debated as if playing a certain race has a distinct, measureable difference.  The ONLY reason Trolls are outrageously good in most tiers was because of the 5% bonus to beasts, of which we saw several of.  5% was an absurd number to give to a racial and I'm glad it's fixed.  You're talking about a 1% crit chance or 2% crit damage bonus or some other marginal value that isn't going to make or break anyone.  I've seen current Blood Elves out DPS Trolls - it's largely inconsequential.  Spend the time and energy used deciding on a race to bettering your performance now and in the future.  Races, much like secondary stats, make a VERY small impact on your DPS.  Yes, there is some measureable difference.  Is it as impactful as everyone makes it out to be?  No, it is not.

 

It may, actually, be more helpful for you to pick a class based on how good the gear looks instead of a DPS factor.  The bonuses are small.  Pick the class that has the best jokes, looks the best, flirts the best, or perhaps some other passive bonus most overlook.

[Liquidsteel 279]

• Might of the Mountain is a new racial passive ability that increases Critical Strike bonus damage and healing dealt by 2%.

 

As far as I'm aware, crit damage being increased by 2% actually means 4%, as crits are 200%.

 

The Burning Primal Diamond is an example of this. It offers 3% bonus crit damage, however this results in a 6% increase to Chaos Bolt damage.

 

That is my reasoning for Dwarf.

[Nytemare 2]

This is all debated as if playing a certain race has a distinct, measureable difference.  The ONLY reason Trolls are outrageously good in most tiers was because of the 5% bonus to beasts, of which we saw several of.  5% was an absurd number to give to a racial and I'm glad it's fixed.  You're talking about a 1% crit chance or 2% crit damage bonus or some other marginal value that isn't going to make or break anyone.  I've seen current Blood Elves out DPS Trolls - it's largely inconsequential.  Spend the time and energy used deciding on a race to bettering your performance now and in the future.  Races, much like secondary stats, make a VERY small impact on your DPS.  Yes, there is some measureable difference.  Is it as impactful as everyone makes it out to be?  No, it is not.

 

Beast slayer is nice, but you only had 1x in HOF, 4-5x ToT (4 if you count only all beast fight, 5 if you consider Iron Qon part to count) & 1-2 SoO (1 if you only count Thok, 2 if you count the wolves DS have) ToT did have a lot and made that Troll tier.

 

But regarding SimCraft they have every class as a troll if they can, figure it was due to the Mini-Hero not really due to the limited Beast Slayer passive that only really shined in ToT

Edited August 27, 2014 by Nytemare

[Nytemare 2]

 

• Might of the Mountain is a new racial passive ability that increases Critical Strike bonus damage and healing dealt by 2%.

 

As far as I'm aware, crit damage being increased by 2% actually means 4%, as crits are 200%.

 

The Burning Primal Diamond is an example of this. It offers 3% bonus crit damage, however this results in a 6% increase to Chaos Bolt damage.

 

That is my reasoning for Dwarf.

 

 

Yeah that would make sense, why I figure at first they give a straight up damage boost to CB. Of course I had it only at 2% CB damage increase, but I like 4% better lol. Only time will tell.

[Zagam 1,982]

Thok is the major one to note.  In a 25 man guild, having 20 trolls as DPS essentially makes you a 26 man roster.  Nothing should have that sort of impact, especially a racial.

[Zagam 1,982]

Also, with the scaling of gear and how Haste stacking works, Berserking isn't worth 20% Haste - it's worth far more when coupled with Bloodlust, Tempus Repit, and any other Haste proc.  When snapshotting, the effect is astronomical. 

[Liquidsteel 279]

Also Dark Shamans. The dogs are beasts so you want to open by targeting one of those.

 

This is a huge increase for stuff like fire mages, or classes that just cleave, like warriors/rogues etc.

[Orthios 271]

 

• Might of the Mountain is a new racial passive ability that increases Critical Strike bonus damage and healing dealt by 2%.

 

As far as I'm aware, crit damage being increased by 2% actually means 4%, as crits are 200%.

 

The Burning Primal Diamond is an example of this. It offers 3% bonus crit damage, however this results in a 6% increase to Chaos Bolt damage.

 

That is my reasoning for Dwarf.

 

That does make sense, and it would cut down the crit "bp" to 25%.  All in all though, I'm going to agree with Zagam and say that it won't make too much of a difference and shouldn't be the deciding factor of what race you choose.

[Nytemare 2]

Also Dark Shamans. The dogs are beasts so you want to open by targeting one of those.

 

This is a huge increase for stuff like fire mages, or classes that just cleave, like warriors/rogues etc.

 

Far as I can recall every Tier even at the start T14 SimCraft had trolls as the race, even when there was only one boss that BS worked on. So made sense it was due to Berserking. If it wasn't troll it was Orc for the same reason kinda. The 2min DPS increase Cd Blood Fury made them strong.

 

Anyways I don't like the change they making to it in WoD. Current version made it usefull even at max level when out in the world. Sure it made it OP if raid boss was classified as a beas, but that happen so rare (Expect for ToT lol). New change makes it completely worthless at max level. Only way I can see it be decent at max if it could give extra money like how quest at max level gives more gold which xps is not useless.

 

 

That does make sense, and it would cut down the crit "bp" to 25%.  All in all though, I'm going to agree with Zagam and say that it won't make too much of a difference and shouldn't be the deciding factor of what race you choose.

 

Yeah I am currently human been for almost 10yrs now. Figure it time for a change. So since I like all the races, comes down to which will be more benefit for an ally lock come WoD. 

Edited August 27, 2014 by Nytemare

[Hurtlocker 11]

Yeah I am currently human been for almost 10yrs now. Figure it time for a change. So since I like all the races, comes down to which will be more benefit for an ally lock come WoD. 

 

If you go Worgen you can use the two forms button to be human again, for nostalgia.  You can't fix the ugly on a troll or dwarf. 

[Nytemare 2]

So since been talking about haste, I had a another look at your chat. I am little confused right now I have 30.85% haste and according to the chart with Hero/Meta Incinerate Backdraft  falls below 1.00sec GCD cap which I guess is bad, and dps lost. So go off that means I would want to not use Conflagrate during those times. I can work with that, but if I look at the chart more even with 5% self haste + 5% raid Haste + Meta/Hero Incinerate Backdraft also fall under 1.00 GCD cap. So even with no haste seems you can't win and if I understanding this right you going to be GCD cap on Incinerate regardless.

 

So my question is how do we combat this GCD capping? Do we just never use Conflagrate under any Haste increase effects? or do we still use Conflagrate to try and proc 2pc bonus to hopfuly go with 4pc snapshot immolate and use backdrafts on CB now to cast them as close to 1.00 sec as possible?

 

If we never supposed to use Conflagrate with Haste procs, then that would increase my DPS a little as I right now I use it with Incinerate regardless of what haste effects I am under, because I keep Conflagrate on cd all the time. Minute it comes up I pop it. Of course that only if not going to wasting emberbits due to capping and wasting incinerate just so CB doesn't consume backdraft.

Edited August 27, 2014 by Nytemare

[Zagam 1,982]

Tempus Repit uptime should be moderately low.  Should be very easy to avoid using Conflagrate for 10 second intervals of TR. 

 

For Bloodlust, this is only up for 40 seconds of any given fight.  You might GCD cap here, but who cares.  It's a relatively minor point that isn't throughout the entire fight.  You can't avoid GCD capping with certain buffs up, so just don't worry about it.  Just don't stack Haste to the point you bypass the GCD cap by a lot.  Having a 0.9 second Incinerate cast sucks, but it's ok.  Having a 0.5 second Incinerate cast means you're wasting 0.5 of your GCD. 

 

Conflag doesn't only faciliate faster casts.  It also reduces the mana cost which is helpful in not having to cast Chaos Bolt at inopportune times.  Even if you're going to GCD cap, Conflag still reduces the cast of your next 3 Incinerate spells, even if it pushes them to 1 sec activity globals.

[Nytemare 2]

Tempus Repit uptime should be moderately low.  Should be very easy to avoid using Conflagrate for 10 second intervals of TR. 

 

For Bloodlust, this is only up for 40 seconds of any given fight.  You might GCD cap here, but who cares.  It's a relatively minor point that isn't throughout the entire fight.  You can't avoid GCD capping with certain buffs up, so just don't worry about it.  Just don't stack Haste to the point you bypass the GCD cap by a lot.  Having a 0.9 second Incinerate cast sucks, but it's ok.  Having a 0.5 second Incinerate cast means you're wasting 0.5 of your GCD. 

 

Conflag doesn't only faciliate faster casts.  It also reduces the mana cost which is helpful in not having to cast Chaos Bolt at inopportune times.  Even if you're going to GCD cap, Conflag still reduces the cast of your next 3 Incinerate spells, even if it pushes them to 1 sec activity globals.

 

So I was right don't use Conflagrate during Meta. 0.9 not so bad I guess, but under Both Meta/Hero with my gear puts me at 

Incinerate = .867

Incinerate + Backdraft = .607

Immolate = .650

CB = 1.3

 

So going off this I would never use Conflagrate during both Meta/Hero correct? or is this falls under not a big deal you post about capping under lust?

 

Also since we talking about Lifeblood from Herb earlier. ability is a 2min CD that gives 2880 haste and line up with DSI every time. That according to AMR = 6.78% buffed haste (without 5% raid haste) or 12.12% with 5% raid buff. So how would I go about figuring out what everything will be when popped during DSI?

[Zagam 1,982]

It's not a big deal if you use Conflag during Tempus Repit.  It's ideal if you don't, but you're not going to fall below a Shadow Priest if you do.

 

If you're already GCD capped with TR + Bloodlust, why does it even matter what you're at if you add Lifeblood in as well?  You'll just be deeper into GCD capped territory. 

 

If you need to calculate things, Haste effects are multplicative.  You can use this to calculate everything you'd want to know on your own.  For example, if you had 0% Haste on gear but had the raid buff and used DS:I, you wouldn't get 35% by adding 30 and 5.  You'd convert each to numerical values of 1.3 and 1.05 and multiply these together to get 1.365, or 36.5%.  Do this for whatever you want to see where you're at.

[Nytemare 2]

It's not a big deal if you use Conflag during Tempus Repit.  It's ideal if you don't, but you're not going to fall below a Shadow Priest if you do.

 

If you're already GCD capped with TR + Bloodlust, why does it even matter what you're at if you add Lifeblood in as well?  You'll just be deeper into GCD capped territory. 

 

If you need to calculate things, Haste effects are multplicative.  You can use this to calculate everything you'd want to know on your own.  For example, if you had 0% Haste on gear but had the raid buff and used DS:I, you wouldn't get 35% by adding 30 and 5.  You'd convert each to numerical values of 1.3 and 1.05 and multiply these together to get 1.365, or 36.5%.  Do this for whatever you want to see where you're at.

 

Misunderstood I was not talking about Lifeblood with Meta + Hero as I know that just make me deeper in GCD capped area like you said. At most might be able to make CB have 1sec cast to maximize them. 

 

I was going off what everything would be if I had just Lifeblood + 5% Raid Buff up is all. Lifeblood lines up with DSI every 2min so no reason to never use them together if you have it. So wanting to know what my casts would be with just it.

 

DSI = Cirt not haste (thinking DSM then). 12.12% if I put in 2880 in manual haste raiting in AMR comes back that with 5% raid buff. Now like to figure out what that would bring CB casting speed down to.

 

Would be nice to also know what Lifeblood + Meta would make CB cast time be every 2min if meta proc during the burst phase of popping DIS and spaming 3+CB

[Liquidsteel 279]

You still use Conflagrate if it means not using it would see you cap at 2 stacks.

 

I feel you're grossly over thinking things. It's pretty simple.

 

1) Do what you want with Haste and Crit, really doesn't matter.

 

2) If running higher Haste, try to avoid Conflagrate under Haste procs, but don't let it cap charges.

 

Simples.

[Nytemare 2]

You still use Conflagrate if it means not using it would see you cap at 2 stacks.

 

I feel you're grossly over thinking things. It's pretty simple.

 

1) Do what you want with Haste and Crit, really doesn't matter.

 

2) If running higher Haste, try to avoid Conflagrate under Haste procs, but don't let it cap charges.

 

Simples.

 

I got that and that what I will train myself to do. Expect under lust when like Zag said doesn't matter. 

 

Now I moved on to wanting to know how to find out CB cast speed and the others while until Lifeblood during DSI burst time. with my current haste. 12.12% is was 2880 turns into under 5% raid haste, so got one part done, now how do I take that combine it with my current haste (30%) to get CB cast time under it?

 

After I get that, I want to see it under LB+Meta (more so I know if I take it how many CB I get off like during a garry pull where adds just stay up for P1 and I can spam CB)

 

I took 2.00 * 24.62% (my current haste self buff) which then get 0.4924. Now retook 2.00 second cast from Incinerate (that what you have on chart) and minus it and got 1.51 sec cast Incinerate. Yet game says it has a 1.61 cast. So unsure what I am missing

Edited August 27, 2014 by Nytemare