5.4 Destruction Tips and Quirks

[Zagam 1,982]

Pretty sure I stated before that CB ticks don't clip.  They happen regardless, so there is no need to weave another spell between CBs.  CB away with procs.  The only way to really clip it is if you somehow beat the Pandemic barrier of having another CB land before 2 ticks of the previous DoT fade.  I can imagine that only being possibe under RIDICULOUS Haste effects.

 

The DoT from CB acts just like all other DoTs.  It has a 3 second duration, tick interval of 1 second, and it is affected by Pandemic.  Because Pandemic can only apply half duration and it is an even number second duration DoT, it likely loses a tick if you apply another CB before the 2nd tick happens.  However, if the game actually programs it correctly and it allows for Pandemic to give 1.5 seconds to the CB debuff, then it should never clip the 2nd value and only add the next three ticks after the application tick much like you linked in the first example.  I'll need to look at my own logs and see if I see clipping.  I'm pretty sure I saw a blue post saying that CB doesn't clip.

[Omaric 246]

Pretty sure I stated before that CB ticks don't clip.  They happen regardless, so there is no need to weave another spell between CBs.  CB away with procs.  The only way to really clip it is if you somehow beat the Pandemic barrier of having another CB land before 2 ticks of the previous DoT fade.  I can imagine that only being possibe under RIDICULOUS Haste effects.

 

His point is that every tick of one instance of a CB should all be the same damage.  His samplings are showing that some ticks are ticking for varying amounts of damage *and* he's missing ticks.  Looks buggy to me.

[Zagam 1,982]

Nah, remember DoT spells are calculated UPON APPLICATION ALWAYS.

 

Direct spells = when spell cast is executed excluding travel time.  So CB's DIRECT DAMAGE is calculated upon casting the spell. 

 

The DoT portion is calculated when the CB ACTUALLY HITS.  I think that's where you all are confused expecting the values to be the same.  You WILL lose some of your original value CB DoT damage with travel time if procs fall off.

[Zagam 1,982]

My best guess, and probably can be confirmed, is this happened:

 

1st CB CAST = trinkets up

1st CB DoT = trinkets up

2nd CB CAST = trinkets up

2nd CB DoT = trinkets not up - thus lower damage, 80k on tick down from 100k+

[Omaric 246]

Nah, remember DoT spells are calculated UPON APPLICATION ALWAYS.

 

Direct spells = when spell cast is executed excluding travel time.  So CB's DIRECT DAMAGE is calculated upon casting the spell. 

 

The DoT portion is calculated when the CB ACTUALLY HITS.  I think that's where you all are confused expecting the values to be the same.  You WILL lose some of your original value CB DoT damage with travel time if procs fall off.

 

That doesn't explain how the DoT's are ticking for varying amounts of damage.  If the DoT damage is calculated when it hits the target, why aren't all the DoT ticks for the CB the same?

 

It also doesn't explain why a DoT tick would be missing.

 

Edit: Look at this first log:

 

[20:23:21.022]  Soulzar Chaos Bolt Malkorok *2090620*  <<< 1st CB

[20:23:21.022] Malkorok afflicted by Chaos Bolt from  Soulzar

[20:23:21.989]  Soulzar Chaos Bolt Malkorok *104625*  <<< 1st CB DoT

[20:23:22.107]  Soulzar casts Chaos Bolt on Malkorok

[20:23:23.006]  Soulzar Chaos Bolt Malkorok *104625*  <<< 1st CB DoT

[20:23:23.876] Malkorok's Chaos Bolt is refreshed by  Soulzar

[20:23:23.876]  Soulzar Chaos Bolt Malkorok *2024069*  <<< 2nd CB

[20:23:24.005]  Soulzar Chaos Bolt Malkorok *101154*  <<< 1st CB DoT (why is this different?)

[20:23:24.985]  Soulzar Chaos Bolt Malkorok *84295*  <<< 2nd CB DoT

[20:23:26.015]  Soulzar Chaos Bolt Malkorok *84295*  <<< 2nd CB DoT

[20:23:27.007]  Soulzar Chaos Bolt Malkorok *84295*  <<< 2nd CB DoT

[Zagam 1,982]

Yep, check your examples - perfect explanation. 

 

If your 2nd Chaos Bolt hits before the 2nd tick of the first CB's DoT, YOU WILL CLIP a tick, much like you would any other DoT.  Your 2nd CB hits after the 2nd tick in the first example which accounted for all of your ticks.  Pandemic KEPT the power of the first DoT as your 3rd tick, extended the duration, and gave you the 2nd set of 3 ticks on your 2nd CB.

 

On examples 2 and 3, your 2nd CB hit before your 2nd DoT tick, so you lost the 2nd tick of damage from your first CB cast.  The time stamps are close, but you can see this simplified here:

 

1st Example

1st CB HITS

[20:23:21.022]  Soulzar Chaos Bolt Malkorok *2090620*

[20:23:21.989]  Soulzar Chaos Bolt Malkorok *104625*

[20:23:23.006]  Soulzar Chaos Bolt Malkorok *104625* (2nd tick)

2nd CB HITS

[20:23:23.876]  Soulzar Chaos Bolt Malkorok *2024069*

[20:23:24.005]  Soulzar Chaos Bolt Malkorok *101154* (3rd tick of 1st CB via Pandemic)

[20:23:24.985]  Soulzar Chaos Bolt Malkorok *84295* (DoT power calculated by procs up at time of 2nd CB landing)

[20:23:26.015]  Soulzar Chaos Bolt Malkorok *84295*

[20:23:27.007]  Soulzar Chaos Bolt Malkorok *84295*

[Zagam 1,982]

[20:23:24.005]  Soulzar Chaos Bolt Malkorok *101154*  <<< 1st CB DoT (why is this different?)

Pandemic and DoT reapplication with different procs up.  DoTs are recalculated upon application.  However, it's going to do some weird calculation because it's STILL based off of dmg of first CB but with a new spell power calculation.  The 2nd application DoT is much lower because NO procs were up during this time.

[Omaric 246]

Pretty sure I stated before that CB ticks don't clip.

 

If your 2nd Chaos Bolt hits before the 2nd tick of the first CB's DoT, YOU WILL CLIP a tick, much like you would any other DoT.

 

You sir are going to drive me crazy.

[Zagam 1,982]

Basically, you can clip the 2nd DoT and travel time matters for the DoT application.  If a proc falls off as Chaos Bolt is traveling, you will lose the potential of 15% of the CB damage.

[Zagam 1,982]

You sir are going to drive me crazy.

When I stated that CB DoT didn't clip, it was because it required INSANE amounts of Haste procs being up and I said this back in ToT.  I swear I saw a blue post on it as well that it couldn't be clipped and how the damage would be added up together.  You know I trust Blizzard's programming as far as I can throw it, but it appears that the DoT of CB isn't affected by Haste.  This makes the calculation on how much Haste you need to clip it be MUCH lower. 

 

I shouldn't be the one making you insane...it's really not my fault if Blizzard isn't doing what they said they were doing.  They said it couldn't be clipped because of the insane Haste requirement, but they're not making the CB DoT benefit from Haste which throws that theory right out the window.

[Omaric 246]

Don't make me get into an argument about the discrepancies between crazy and insane.  It would be a very complex, but perhaps not difficult, discussion.

 

<3

[Zagam 1,982]

Basically, it looks like they are not programming the DoT to act like a DoT in terms of Haste application but it works like a DoT for Pandemic...they need to decide what it should be doing.  If it benefits from Haste, then it can't be clipped, as stated earlier, unless you nearly global CB which would require BL, TR, and Berserking all together.

 

If they intend to keep CB from benefitting from Haste, then the magic number for you to not clip CB DoT ticks would be to have Chaos Bolts NEVER land within 2 seconds of each other.  Whether this involves a spell weave, a slight delay, or having Haste never bring CB cast below 2 seconds is up to you, but if you have enough Haste effects to bring CB casts down below 2 seconds, then you're going to lose one tick of the DoT.

[Zagam 1,982]

This kinda stuff is enough for me to hang my hat up when Blizzcon is done and I finish this tier.  Staying up on content is one thing.  Theorycrafting is a 2nd.  Being responsible for relaying information, digesting it, and putting it out there and have it be wrong then get blamed for it is just soul-crushing. 

[Soulzar 42]

So GoSac does not really increase CB damage by 15% if this is how it behaves.  Confusing how its base dmg can be calculated by CB's value when cast is completed, but the dot is then modified again based on your existing Spell power when the dot is applied (spell hit).

 

Pandemic on the dot would explain the missing tick in my examples, as second CB hits before second tick.

 

Thanks.  I am no longer confused about my log findings, but disappointing to find out it works this way.  

[Zagam 1,982]

So GoSac does not really increase CB damage by 15% if this is how it behaves.  Confusing how its base dmg can be calculated by CB's value when cast is completed, but the dot is then modified again based on your existing Spell power when the dot is applied (spell hit).

 

Pandemic on the dot would explain the missing tick in my examples, as second CB hits before second tick.

 

Thanks.  I am no longer confused about my log findings, but disappointing to find out it works this way.  

I'm glad you brought it up to clear up just how ridiculously lazy Blizzard is at checking their stupid equations.  How could you NOT let Haste affect a DoT?!?!  Also, GoSac CAN increase CB by 15%.  It can also increase it by less if procs fall off as CB is traveling or it could increase it by MORE if procs happen while CB is in flight!  It's not all negative.  it still should, overall, come out to a 15% net gain.

[Soulzar 42]

So what we have learned today, is to make sure you pop into Meta immediately following casting a CB to buff the dot...

 

oh wait...

[Demyndra 6]

Question regarding opener... I think this was answered somewhere in the 23 pages of this thread, but I digress...

 

I am struggling to get 2nd CB off in time for procs.  I end up anywhere from .5 -1.0 seconds from getting 2ndCB off in proc range.  I tried the suggestion of 3 incins and consuming remaining charges for the 2nd CB, but then I run into not having enough embers to cast the second CB.  So my question is... how y'allz be doin diss???

 

I run as afflic main and destro off, so I sit at the 9778(ish) haste threshold, and I dont have 4pc yet, only 2pc.  I know most people deprioritize haste for destro, so their casts would be a little slower than mine... so why ain't minez fittin?  Also I'm still stuck with T15 trinks... Wush and Breath.

[Zagam 1,982]

Haste isn't going to be a big part of your opener because you should be getting Tempus Repit anyways.  Critting gives you double Embers as well as Immolate Crit ticks.  Your opener should be Conflag x2, Immolate, Incinerate x3.  That will generate at least 5 Emberbits and shouldn't take more than 5 seconds.  Your trinkets should still be running and you'll cast your first CB while other stuff is happening like Immo ticks.  Sometimes you'll need to use another Incinerate to get to another full ember, but do it and then just cast CB.  Practice your rotation in LFR - Malkorok is a great first boss of LFR to test rotations for 10-20 seconds.  Test at a dummy with a friend who has Spell Haste.  There really shouldn't be much complication in getting two CBs off in the first two seconds...just keep working your rotation.

[Soulzar 42]

I personally have been starting with Prepot/Incin at 3 seconds followed by Immolate, 2xconflag, 3incin. CBx2

 

With hero on pull I have time to recast Immolate with LMG/Trinkets after my first 2 CB.

[Zagam 1,982]

If you cast Immolate before Tempus Repit is up, you can do better.  Tempus Repit boosted Immolate increases early proc rate of trinkets.

[Demyndra 6]

I never thought to do conflag x2 before Immolate, I'll test that out to see if it helps me out.  It just kills me to see CB#1 hit for 1.X Million, then CB #2 hit for 700k because of procs dropping just before cast is off.

[Soulzar 42]

Zags, so do you precast anything?  From what you wrote above sounds like you start off with conflag x2 into Immo...Additionally, are you still gaming the 4p on pull or letting it proc on the first filled ember?

 

Dem, do you favor haste or crit more?  When I dropped from a deep crit into more haste (8097) I was finding that my crit RNG was not high enough to reliably get the second ember filled in time.  For this reason I shifted a bit of my haste back into crit and it seems to be more reliable for me.

[Zagam 1,982]

Zags, so do you precast anything?  From what you wrote above sounds like you start off with conflag x2 into Immo...Additionally, are you still gaming the 4p on pull or letting it proc on the first filled ember?

I never gamed the first Ember.  I thought I said back then it would be selfish to have the countdown based around you.  I don't precast anything except Soul Fire as Demo.

[Zagam 1,982]

Alright, analyzed my logs...

 

The absolute threshold for your 2nd Chaos Bolt to land to avoid clipping is 2.000 seconds, down to the thousandth of a second.

 

[19:23:27.638] Zagam Chaos Bolt Iron Juggernaut *1882162*
[19:23:28.804] Zagam Chaos Bolt Iron Juggernaut *94021*
[19:23:29.638] Zagam Chaos Bolt Iron Juggernaut *1761251*
[19:23:29.639] Zagam Chaos Bolt Iron Juggernaut *88377*   (0.001 seconds later! - lost a tick of damage)
[19:23:30.642] Zagam Chaos Bolt Iron Juggernaut *88377*
[19:23:31.645] Zagam Chaos Bolt Iron Juggernaut *88377*
[19:23:32.755] Zagam Chaos Bolt Iron Juggernaut *88377*

 

Note: Haste absolutely does NOT affect Chaos Bolt's tick.  It looks like it varies, but this may be a log issue where there are SO many things going off that things aren't calculated exactly.  Typically, the tick interval for CB DoT is exactly 1.000 seconds, but it ranges up to 1.1 seconds.

 

My log also shows that I accidentally consumed Backdraft for a Chaos Bolt with a proc up and I lost THREE ticks of CB because I fired 3 back to back to back and lost 1 tick then 2 ticks (only got 6 total ticks from 3 CBs).

 

TL;DR:

Haste is NOT affecting the CB DoT.  YOU CAN CLIP IT, but it doesn't happen often. 

You WILL clip if you consume CB with Backdraft, so don't make a habit of it, but it can still be good to consume it to get the Chaos Bolt damage. 

Chaos Bolt's damage is calculated AT THE END OF THE CAST

Chaos Bolt's DoT damage is calculated WHEN THE CB LANDS

 

This means GoSac may not actually increase CB by 15% but more like 13.5-14.0% with the 1-3 ticks you'll likely lose with lots of Haste effects.

 

Thanks to Soulzar for the find, Locky and Kazi for working through the findings with me in Mumble.

[Kazistrasz 216]

Here's one of my own to go along with Zagam's above.

 

[21:28:45.300]  Kazistrasza Chaos Bolt Bloodclaw *2011260*
[21:28:46.256]  Kazistrasza Chaos Bolt Bloodclaw *100547*
[21:28:47.172]  Kazistrasza Chaos Bolt Bloodclaw *2010481*
[21:28:47.329]  Kazistrasza Chaos Bolt Bloodclaw *100879*
[21:28:48.371]  Kazistrasza Chaos Bolt Bloodclaw *100878*
[21:28:49.079]  Kazistrasza Chaos Bolt Bloodclaw *1577457*
[21:28:49.280]  Kazistrasza Chaos Bolt Bloodclaw *79336*
[21:28:50.281]  Kazistrasza Chaos Bolt Bloodclaw *79336*
[21:28:51.265]  Kazistrasza Chaos Bolt Bloodclaw *79335*
[21:28:52.326]  Kazistrasza Chaos Bolt Bloodclaw *79335*