Cover every Rip by Tiger's Fury or not?

[weirpenguin 0]

Just have question about tiger's fury and rip.

Is it necessary to make sure every rip is covered by the benefit of tiger's fury for a higher DPS, which will result in a period about 8s (as tiger's fury get 30s cooldown and rip can be extended to 22s by 2s from mangle and shred three times) where your target does not have rip dot on it?

Or, keeping the rip on your target should be put higher priority?

If then, shall I still use tiger's fury once its cooldown ends or just wait to make sure the tiger's fury can affect next rip?

Edited May 2, 2013 by weirpenguin

[Tarazet 144]

The highest priority is keeping Savage Roar up 100% of the time. I personally handle this by recasting it with however many combo points I have as it's falling off, just because the penalty for letting it fall off is so high. This way, I can also stay close to 100% uptime on Rip and work in a Ferocious Bite once in a while. When Tiger's Fury is about to come off cooldown, I make sure SR will stay up throughout the next sequence, get to 5 combo points, TF, Rip, Healing Touch (if you use DoC), Rake, and as many Shreds as I can fit in before TF falls off. Then don't overwrite those DoTs until they've run their full duration.

So actually, I think the short answer is yes. But I don't remember off the top of my head if Haste affects the duration of Rip. That could potentially throw off your timings.

Edited May 2, 2013 by Tarazet

[Paloro 39]

Just have question about tiger's fury and rip.

Is it necessary to make sure every rip is covered by the benefit of tiger's fury for a higher DPS, which will result in a period about 8s (as tiger's fury get 30s cooldown and rip can be extended to 22s by 2s from mangle and shred three times) where your target does not have rip dot on it?

Or, keeping the rip on your target should be put higher priority?

If then, shall I still use tiger's fury once its cooldown ends or just wait to make sure the tiger's fury can affect next rip?

The simple answer is that it is a dps gain to wait for TF to come off cd before applying Rip.

If you would like a more detailed answer, please let me know and link your armory

Edited May 2, 2013 by Paloro

[Sindros 0]

The simple answer is that it is a dps gain to wait for TF to come off cd before applying Rip.

If you would like a more detailed answer, please let me know and link your armory

I would like a more detailed answer because it goes against the typical recommendation for TF.

http://www.icy-veins...downs-abilities

Tiger's Fury increases your physical damage done by 15% for 6 seconds, on a 30-second cooldown. Additionally, it instantly restores 60 energy. It should be used on cooldown.

http://fluiddruid.ne...pandaria-guide/

30 sec CD, immediately generates 60 energy and increases damage done by 15% for 6 seconds. Off-GCD, so you can use this anytime. USE THIS ON COOLDOWN. I can’t stress this enough; people try to save it, which is a bad idea 99% of the time. If it’s available for use, use it UNLESS you’re above 30 energy (don’t want to waste the benefit). In that case, toss a Shred or two, pop TF, and keep going.

A quick math check seems to indicate that the conventional wisdom is accurate and TF should be used on CD.

For instance, imagine a rip that looks like this:

Unbuffed = 80 damage over 16s = 10 damage per tick every 2s

Buffed = 1.15*80 = 92 damage over 16s = 11.5 damage per tick every 2s

Now let's say you completely ignore TF and fight for 1m, refreshing rip so that it has 100% uptime. Pretend the 1m starts as soon as we have 5cp.

Total damage = 10 * (60s/2) = 300

Now let's say you use TF, but you don't rip until you have TF available so that you get two 22s buffed rips (one at 0s and one at 30s). Again 1m starts when we have 5cp.

Total damage = 11.5 * ((22 + 22)/2) = 253

Another way of saying the same thing: TF is 15% damage increase, so we can reduce the amount of time by (1-1/1.15) = 13% to get the same amount of total damage. However, in this case we've decreased the total time by (1 - 44/60) = 26.7%, so we've lost a ton of damage. And, we haven't accounted for the extra damage we'd get in the first scenario if we did use TF on CD (the first rip would then be TF buffed), so the second scenario is even worse than shown here.

[Paloro 39]

Your scenario is very unrealistic. TF is on a 30 sec cd and a Rip will last you 22 seconds. TF also lasts 6 seconds though, so you can have a range for waiting for TF to come off cd anywhere from 2-8 seconds (nowhere near the 1 min as you suggested).

I asked for an armory link for a reason, which is that it varies greatly for each individual person and their gear set-up which is exactly best for them. Feral isn't a traditional spec that gets to play whack-a-mole for the best results. For instance, if you have 4p t15 and a RoR, your Rip uptimes can vary from 87-97% for maximum damage whereas 4pt14 would be a more consistent 90%. You also have other factors, such as the specific fight, talents taken and target time to live.

In general, for most people it would be a gain to wait for TF to come off cd before using it on a Rip.

[weirpenguin 0]

The highest priority is keeping Savage Roar up 100% of the time. I personally handle this by recasting it with however many combo points I have as it's falling off, just because the penalty for letting it fall off is so high. This way, I can also stay close to 100% uptime on Rip and work in a Ferocious Bite once in a while. When Tiger's Fury is about to come off cooldown, I make sure SR will stay up throughout the next sequence, get to 5 combo points, TF, Rip, Healing Touch (if you use DoC), Rake, and as many Shreds as I can fit in before TF falls off. Then don't overwrite those DoTs until they've run their full duration.

So actually, I think the short answer is yes. But I don't remember off the top of my head if Haste affects the duration of Rip. That could potentially throw off your timings.

Sure, savage roar need to be kept 100% time. And I heard that haste does not affect the bleeding dot and haste only helps restore energy, increase attack speed for feral druid.

[weirpenguin 0]

I would like a more detailed answer because it goes against the typical recommendation for TF.

I agree that the 8s period without rip will hurt the DPS. But I also hold the question what if in this 8s we make use of the energy and combo point in bite and thrash.

Your scenario is very unrealistic. TF is on a 30 sec cd and a Rip will last you 22 seconds. TF also lasts 6 seconds though, so you can have a range for waiting for TF to come off cd anywhere from 2-8 seconds (nowhere near the 1 min as you suggested).

I asked for an armory link for a reason, which is that it varies greatly for each individual person and their gear set-up which is exactly best for them. Feral isn't a traditional spec that gets to play whack-a-mole for the best results. For instance, if you have 4p t15 and a RoR, your Rip uptimes can vary from 87-97% for maximum damage whereas 4pt14 would be a more consistent 90%. You also have other factors, such as the specific fight, talents taken and target time to live.

In general, for most people it would be a gain to wait for TF to come off cd before using it on a Rip.

I agree that armor information is important, but my current armor gives no extra ability and it is still a long way before I can collect 4t14 or 4t15, I think we do not need to worry about it now.

But I kind of disagree with the idea that period of TF can reduce the time that we do not have rip on target.

For example, if you cast rip at the first sec of TF, you are sure to wait at least 8s for next TF after your rip ends. If in next TF,you cast rip at the last sec so that you can wait less time for next TF. But then, you are waiting more than 8s after your first rip ends.

Edited May 2, 2013 by weirpenguin

[Sindros 0]

Your scenario is very unrealistic. TF is on a 30 sec cd and a Rip will last you 22 seconds. TF also lasts 6 seconds though, so you can have a range for waiting for TF to come off cd anywhere from 2-8 seconds (nowhere near the 1 min as you suggested).

I asked for an armory link for a reason, which is that it varies greatly for each individual person and their gear set-up which is exactly best for them. Feral isn't a traditional spec that gets to play whack-a-mole for the best results. For instance, if you have 4p t15 and a RoR, your Rip uptimes can vary from 87-97% for maximum damage whereas 4pt14 would be a more consistent 90%. You also have other factors, such as the specific fight, talents taken and target time to live.

In general, for most people it would be a gain to wait for TF to come off cd before using it on a Rip.

I think you misunderstood the 1m sample window. You'll still only get 2 TFs in during that time regardless of the 6s window. The scenario is unrealistic in that we're ignoring things that are less important (or hold constant either way). I agree that there are other considerations and edge cases, but the sims in the feral community indicate that TF on CD is best the vast majority of the time.

[Sindros 0]

I agree that the 8s period without rip will hurt the DPS. But I also hold the question what if in this 8s we make use of the energy and combo point in bite and thrash.

I agree that armor information is important, but my current armor gives no extra ability and it is still a long way before I can collect 4t14 or 4t15, I think we do not need to worry about it now.

But I kind of disagree with the idea that period of TF can reduce the time that we do not have rip on target.

For example, if you cast rip at the first sec of TF, you are sure to wait at least 8s for next TF after your rip ends. If in next TF,you cast rip at the last sec so that you can wait less time for next TF. But then, you are waiting more than 8s after your first rip ends.

For the first point - yes, but you'll be making use of that energy either way. You're not going to let your energy pool at 100 anyway, so you'll always be doing damage and getting cps. It's just a question of when you use the CPs for rip vs something else.

Actually, I would repost this question on The Fluid Druid forums. They'll likely provide a more comprehensive explanation with better numbers than I used here (and probably a better explanation of caveats).

http://fluiddruid.net/forum/viewforum.php?f=3

[weirpenguin 0]

For the first point - yes, but you'll be making use of that energy either way. You're not going to let your energy pool at 100 anyway, so you'll always be doing damage and getting cps. It's just a question of when you use the CPs for rip vs something else.

Actually, I would repost this question on The Fluid Druid forums. They'll likely provide a more comprehensive explanation with better numbers than I used here (and probably a better explanation of caveats).

http://fluiddruid.ne...ewforum.php?f=3

That would be great

[Tarazet 144]

I agree that the 8s period without rip will hurt the DPS. But I also hold the question what if in this 8s we make use of the energy and combo point in bite and thrash.

In my mind, the real question is, what gives you the largest benefit during Tiger's Fury? And the answer, if you're running with the standard high-Mastery build, is that you should be using your bleeds. If you're a tank with high-Crit tank gear playing your cat offspec, you can probably ignore the bleeds completely and just use Ferocious Bite as your finisher all the time.

But working back from the concept that you want to apply your bleeds during Tiger's Fury - in order to keep Rip up at 100% uptime, you have to use 5 combo points and you only get a few ticks out of it before you need to apply it again. It's better to let it fall off and then reapply it at the appropriate time.

By the way, to this end, you can use Nature's Swiftness and Healing Touch to proc Dream of Cenarius before you cast Rip. It's the only ability in that tier that can directly boost your DPS, so it should be considered as a mandatory choice.

Edited May 2, 2013 by Tarazet

[weirpenguin 0]

In my mind, the real question is, what gives you the largest benefit during Tiger's Fury? And the answer, if you're running with the standard high-Mastery build, is that you should be using your bleeds. If you're a tank with high-Crit tank gear playing your cat offspec, you can probably ignore the bleeds completely and just use Ferocious Bite as your finisher all the time.

But working back from the concept that you want to apply your bleeds during Tiger's Fury - in order to keep Rip up at 100% uptime, you have to use 5 combo points and you only get a few ticks out of it before you need to apply it again. It's better to let it fall off and then reapply it at the appropriate time.

By the way, to this end, you can use Nature's Swiftness and Healing Touch to proc Dream of Cenarius before you cast Rip. It's the only ability in that tier that can directly boost your DPS, so it should be considered as a mandatory choice.

I agree with you that applying TF (actually, it's all the DPS buff) on bleed would give the largest benefit. But I get confused whether that's such a big benefit that worths us having a 8s period without rip on our target.

And I am sorry about not mentioned my talnet. For the talent regarding to DPS, we have selected Nature' Swiftness on tier2, Soul of the Forest on tier 4 and Dream of Cenarius on tier 6.

[Tarazet 144]

I agree with you that applying TF (actually, it's all the DPS buff) on bleed would give the largest benefit. But I get confused whether that's such a big benefit that worths us having a 8s period without rip on our target.

And I am sorry about not mentioned my talnet. For the talent regarding to DPS, we have selected Nature' Swiftness on tier2, Soul of the Forest on tier 4 and Dream of Cenarius on tier 6.

If we agree that applying Rip during TF is the optimal solution every time, then there's actually no room for 100% uptime on Rip. If you had infinite Energy and Combo Points, then there would be no problem. But we don't, and it costs the same amount of Energy and the same number of Combo Points whether you let it run for 22 seconds or for only 8 before you refresh it.

[Paloro 39]

I agree that the 8s period without rip will hurt the DPS. But I also hold the question what if in this 8s we make use of the energy and combo point in bite and thrash.

I agree that armor information is important, but my current armor gives no extra ability and it is still a long way before I can collect 4t14 or 4t15, I think we do not need to worry about it now.

But I kind of disagree with the idea that period of TF can reduce the time that we do not have rip on target.

For example, if you cast rip at the first sec of TF, you are sure to wait at least 8s for next TF after your rip ends. If in next TF,you cast rip at the last sec so that you can wait less time for next TF. But then, you are waiting more than 8s after your first rip ends.

Point 1: That is exactly what you should be doing if you are capping at 5 cp. Unless you have a trinket proc like Renataki's and/or Rune of Re-Origination proc'd

Point 2: I suppose I wasn't very clear on that. I don't mean that you are reducing the overall time that TF is down, but I was making a point that shows the skewness (is that a word?) of a 1 min scenario.

Like I said, every person and situation is different. For instance last night on H:Durumu, I found myself pooled at 100 energy for a bit waiting for Renataki's to hit 10 stacks while Rune was also proc'd. In that situation, you definitely want to wait since I had 200% mastery with 100k AP.

http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-zvhp7jh0wnm94cgn/details/7/?s=2857&e=3431

[weirpenguin 0]

If we agree that applying Rip during TF is the optimal solution every time, then there's actually no room for 100% uptime on Rip. If you had infinite Energy and Combo Points, then there would be no problem. But we don't, and it costs the same amount of Energy and the same number of Combo Points whether you let it run for 22 seconds or for only 8 before you refresh it.

Point 1: That is exactly what you should be doing if you are capping at 5 cp. Unless you have a trinket proc like Renataki's and/or Rune of Re-Origination proc'd

Point 2: I suppose I wasn't very clear on that. I don't mean that you are reducing the overall time that TF is down, but I was making a point that shows the skewness (is that a word?) of a 1 min scenario.

Like I said, every person and situation is different. For instance last night on H:Durumu, I found myself pooled at 100 energy for a bit waiting for Renataki's to hit 10 stacks while Rune was also proc'd. In that situation, you definitely want to wait since I had 200% mastery with 100k AP.

http://www.worldoflo.../?s=2857&e=3431

In my current build, which is still low equip level around 480 as I played restore more before, if I want to keep both savage roar (most 4 or 5 cp to insure the trigger of DoC) and rip 100% up, I seldom get extra energy and combo point to cast a 5 CP bite before 25%. And I believe a AP invested into rip is more beneficial than one into bite. So then,I have some CP could be used in rip transformed to bite if I make every rip covered by TF and gain more benefit in TF but lose some meanwhile in CP. To be more simple, my question is which can win in the game of 22s/30s up time 115%rip + bite vs 100% up time (some 100% and 115% ) rip with the same CP and Energy. Edited May 3, 2013 by weirpenguin

[Tarazet 144]

In my current build, which is still low equip level around 480 as I played restore more before, if I want to keep both savage roar (most 4 or 5 cp to insure the trigger of DoC) and rip 100% up, I seldom get extra energy and combo point to cast a 5 CP bite before 25%. And I believe a AP invested into rip is more beneficial than one into bite. So then,I have some CP could be used in rip transformed to bite if I make every rip covered by TF and gain more benefit in TF but lose some meanwhile in CP. To be more simple, my question is which can win in the game of 22s/30s up time 115%rip + bite vs 100% up time (some 100% and 115% ) rip with the same CP and Energy.

You can't generate enough Combo Points to maintain that style of play. Let me explain: I'll demonstrate it by outlaying what you're doing over the course of a full minute. Assuming energy regeneration of 12 per second, usage of TF on cooldown, and 95% efficiency in using Energy before you're capped, you will spend roughly 800 Energy per minute.

Rake costs 35 energy and needs 4 applications to maintain 100% = 140 Energy, generates 4 CP per minute

Savage Roar costs 25 energy and needs 2 applications to maintain = 50 Energy and 10 CP per minute

Rip: costs 30 energy and needs 3 applications to maintain 100% uptime = 90 Energy and 15 CP per minute

Assuming that you are using your CC procs on Thrash, this leaves you with a budget of 520 Energy with which to generate Combo Points. Shred takes 40 Energy, so you can use it 13 times within your 60-second window. (Mangle does take less energy, but it would only give you one extra cast per minute, which doesn't make up for the DPS loss vs. Shred.) Assuming a 30% chance to crit, you will get 3-4 crits and generate a total of 16-17 CP. Adding the combo points from Rake, that's a total of 20-21.

This leaves you with a deficiency. You can't generate 21 CP and spend 25. So keeping 100% uptime on both abilities requires either an exceptionally lucky string of crits, or throwing away Energy by applying SR with no combo points.

If you remove the extra application of Rip from the equation that is needed to maintain 100% uptime, now your budget is balanced. You generate 21 CP and spend 20 CP per minute, which means you can keep 100% uptime on Savage Roar while using the minimum amount of Energy to do so, and apply Rip on every Tiger's Fury (or Ferocious Bite when the target is below 35% to refresh Rip).

[weirpenguin 0]

You can't generate enough Combo Points to maintain that style of play. Let me explain: I'll demonstrate it by outlaying what you're doing over the course of a full minute. Assuming energy regeneration of 12 per second, usage of TF on cooldown, and 95% efficiency in using Energy before you're capped, you will spend roughly 800 Energy per minute.

Rake costs 35 energy and needs 4 applications to maintain 100% = 140 Energy, generates 4 CP per minute

Savage Roar costs 25 energy and needs 2 applications to maintain = 50 Energy and 10 CP per minute

Rip: costs 30 energy and needs 3 applications to maintain 100% uptime = 90 Energy and 15 CP per minute

Assuming that you are using your CC procs on Thrash, this leaves you with a budget of 520 Energy with which to generate Combo Points. Shred takes 40 Energy, so you can use it 13 times within your 60-second window. (Mangle does take less energy, but it would only give you one extra cast per minute, which doesn't make up for the DPS loss vs. Shred.) Assuming a 30% chance to crit, you will get 3-4 crits and generate a total of 16-17 CP. Adding the combo points from Rake, that's a total of 20-21.

This leaves you with a deficiency. You can't generate 21 CP and spend 25. So keeping 100% uptime on both abilities requires either an exceptionally lucky string of crits, or throwing away Energy by applying SR with no combo points.

If you remove the extra application of Rip from the equation that is needed to maintain 100% uptime, now your budget is balanced. You generate 21 CP and spend 20 CP per minute, which means you can keep 100% uptime on Savage Roar while using the minimum amount of Energy to do so, and apply Rip on every Tiger's Fury (or Ferocious Bite when the target is below 35% to refresh Rip).

I really like the detailed calculation and that really helps me a lot. And I think we can also think about another three points.

First, to keep 100% up time of savage roar, it would need less energy and cp every minute in long term, since a 5 cp one can last 42 sec. In the first minute, we do pay the the cost of two savage roar and can have trouble according to the calculation. But also we will start with 100 energy which give us about another 95 energy to use. In long term, we pay less energy and CP for savage roar every minute like 50*60/84=35 energy and 10*60/84=7 Combo Point.

And second, we also can generate 4 energy from soul of forest for every combo point we use as well. That can give us a few but still more energy to keep both rip and savage roar almost 100% up. As we are sure to able use 20 CP in one minute, we can get at least 80 more energy to use.

Then, in long term, we can gain 12*60 (regain) +60*2 (Tiger's Fury) +80 (Soul of the Forest)=920 energy. With 95% efficiency, that's 874 energy. And we need to use 22 combo point every minute in long term. 874 is enough for that.

I agree that it is too ideal and believe things will not go so smoothly in real, but I guess it is still with certain possibility.

Third, it is sure to be very important and beneficial to keep savage roar 100% up. But the important beneficial part is we have it for our spells. I believe it is okay that we have 1-2s off for savage roar to wait getting 25 energy without casting any spell and only melee attack.

So I think it is possible to get both rip and savage roar almost 100% up.

Before we draw the same conclusion whether that is possible, how about we assume that is possible and talk about which one is better?

Edited May 3, 2013 by weirpenguin

[Tarazet 144]

I really like the detailed calculation and that really helps me a lot. And I think we can also think about another three points.

First, to keep 100% up time of savage roar, it would need less energy and cp every minute in long term, since a 5 cp one can last 42 sec. In the first minute, we do pay the the cost of two savage roar and can have trouble according to the calculation. But also we will start with 100 energy which give us about another 95 energy to use. In long term, we pay less energy and CP for savage roar every minute like 50*60/84=35 energy and 10*60/84=7 Combo Point.

And second, we also can generate 4 energy from soul of forest for every combo point we use as well. That can give us a few but still more energy to keep both rip and savage roar almost 100% up. As we are sure to able use 20 CP in one minute, we can get at least 80 more energy to use.

Then, in long term, we can gain 12*60 (regain) +60*2 (Tiger's Fury) +80 (Soul of the Forest)=920 energy. With 95% efficiency, that's 874 energy. And we need to use 22 combo point every minute in long term. 874 is enough for that.

I agree that it is too ideal and believe things will not go so smoothly in real, but I guess it is still with certain possibility.

Third, it is sure to be very important and beneficial to keep savage roar 100% up. But the important beneficial part is we have it for our spells. I believe it is okay that we have 1-2s off for savage roar to wait getting 25 energy without casting any spell and only melee attack.

So I think it is possible to get both rip and savage roar almost 100% up.

Before we draw the same conclusion whether that is possible, how about we assume that is possible and talk about which one is better?

It's always possible to hit 100% uptime, but it's a tradeoff because one way or another, you're using Energy in places where you don't need to. Even in your calculation you're leaving SR down for 1-2 seconds, and in fact, it applies to all physical damage, so that means your melee attacks are reduced by 30% during that time. A small tradeoff maybe but still a tradeoff.

The principle I'm trying to drill in is the idea that you should play efficiently and use your limited resources to the best possible use. I'll grant you that I didn't take into account the additional Energy from Soul of the Forest, which helps to keep the rotation from being too tight. If you follow your method of refreshing it at expiration, you will certainly get more damage from Rip itself. I'd put the number at somewhere around 15% just from my napkin math. But, since SotF is necessary for this, you'll have to take into account that you're passing on the use of the Incarnation cooldown, which you can time with Berserk and trinket procs to do amazing burst, and also that you're using 30 extra Energy and 5 CP every minute that could contribute to a well-placed Ferocious Bite or allow you to apply Rip to a second target.

Edited May 3, 2013 by Tarazet

[Jozzams 2]

I think a bit of this information is a little misleading but a lot of the logic is sound. Just in regards to the original question:

While you should try to buff as many of your rips and rakes with Tiger's fury, it is not he be-all and end-all of buffs. For example, if you have several procs - say agility from weapon enchant, mastery or agility from a trinket, agility potion, etc, the benefit of applying your rip during these can be superior to just a TF buffed rip. Therefore, you should try to get rip up during TF if it's going to expire, but do not just refresh rip because TF is up or wait for TF before applying rip (in the vast majority of cases). Putting off using TF will cost you energy and damage in the long run. To assume that a TF buffed rip is the strongest is not correct.

A very good addon for tracking this is DroodFocus, which will display an icon showing whether it would be a damage increase or decrease to refresh your dots with your current stats. Using this you will start to notice what has the biggest dps increases on your rip and rake.

The current recommendation on Fluid Druid is to get at least 90% up time on rip and rake, and as close to 100% on savage roar as possible. It is very unlikely you will ever have 100% up time on rip if you have 100% up time on SR.