5.3 PvP Changes

[Marco 51]

Patch 5.3 will bring some significant changes to PvP, which are beneficial to the game, but strangely received negatively by some. We want to discuss the changes of several mechanics in this post, not the new battleground or arena.

PvP Resilience

The base resilience was ramped up from 40% to 65%, which is roughly what the current resilience with a full set of PvP gear is. This was done to make players with PvE gear less vulnerable in PvP and should thus reduce the frustration by a huge margin, considering that you will roughly take half the damage with 65% resilience instead of 40%. Of course all PvP Resilience stats were removed from the PvP gear, although gems can still be used to increase the PvP Power and/or PvP Resilience slightly. PvP Power and PvP Resilience were actually reduced by 50% on gems, but both stats are still viable. The set bonus that provided 1000 PvP Resilience now provides 1000 PvP Power.

PvP Power Reduction

Basically, the amount of PvP Power needed to gain 1% was increased from 265 to 400. This will decrease the damage and healing increases provided by PvP Power by roughly 33% and depending on the actual amount of PvP Power one has, their damage and healing will be decreased by roughly 10% - 14%. This change has been made to decrease the ridiculous damage that is currently done throughout burst situations. It also accounts for possibly more PvP Power due to the set bonus change in 5.3.

This change effectively increases the health pool available in PvP, as both damage and healing are decreased by an equal amount.

Healing Rebalancing

Healing was rebalanced in a way that healers without PvP Power heal significantly less than in 5.2. In 5.2 there is a debuff called Battle Fatigue which reduces any non-percentage-based healing by 30%. The healing reduction will be increased to 45%. To rebalance this nerf the developers redesigned how much PvP Power actually benefits healing:

• Healing increased for heal specs is now 100%, up from 50%, which makes PvP Power twice as useful as currently for healers.
• Healing increased for DPS specs with a healing spec (Monk, Paladin, Priest, Shaman, Druid) is now 70%, up from 25%.
• Healing increased for all other classes and specs is now 40%, up from 0%.

On a side note, PvP Power currently does not benefit percentage-based healing, but the changes to the other classes indicate that it will in 5.3. For example rogues only have percentage-based healing and since they will receive 40% more healing due to PvP Power, this will likely apply to their heals as well.

To evaluate whether this rebalancing act was a nerf or a buff for major heal classes, we will use two examples:

• In 5.2 let us assume a healer has 50% PvP Power, and thus 25% more healing. They cast a basic spell that would heal 1000 health points. It is increased by PvP Power to 1250. Battle Fatigue decreases it by 30% to 875.
• In 5.3 the same healer only has 50% PvP Power, but due to the rebalancing, it will increase their healing by 50%. The same spell is cast with a basic healing amount of 1000. Their healing is increased by 50% to 1500. Battle Fatigue is 45% now and decreases the healing amount to 825.

We can see that healers are nerfed slightly by this rebalancing act.

But the healing of DPS specs of classes that have a healing spec was rebalanced as well, so we will evaluate the same examples again:

• In 5.2 a Windwalker Monk has 50% PvP Power, so 12.5% more healing. They cast a basic spell that would heal 1000 health points. It is increased by PvP Power to 1125. Battle Fatigue decreases it by 30% to 787.5.
• In 5.3 the same Monk still has 50% PvP Power, which will increase their healing by 35%. The same spell is cast with a basic healing amount of 1000. Their healing is increased by 35% to 1350. Battle Fatigue decreases the healing amount by 45% to 742.5.

The conclusion that both healers and DPS specs were nerfed by roughly the same amount can be drawn at this point. Note that you will not reach 50% PvP Power anymore due to the PvP Power nerf, so the overall healing was still reduced as shown above.

Ultimately this rebalancing act has occured to make PvP gear for PvP healers still more viable than PvE gear. As healers in PvP do not have to deal any damage, and PvP gear is not needed for PvP Resilience anymore (due to the changes discussed above), it was necessary to make PvP Power more viable and thus increase the viability of PvP gear in comparison to PvE gear.

Item Level Balancing

With 5.3 the item level of PvP gear that is bought with Conquest points will be increased from 493 to 496. The item level of Elite PvP gear, which can be bought once you earned 27000 Conquest points in the season, is decreased from 512 to 496. Elite PvP gear has been changed to reduce the gap between high rated players and slightly lower rated players. Reaching 2200 rating would pose a barrier to some players that could not be transcended due to major gear differences.

The item level of any item equipped will be capped at 496 in battlegrounds, rated battlegrounds and arenas. This was mainly done to make PvE gear with an item level of 522 less viable than PvP gear with an item level of 496, as the change to PvP Resilience would possibly make high level PvE gear equally or more appealing. With 5.3, the following will apply:

• 496 PvE gear will have roughly the same strength as 476 PvP gear that is bought with Honor points.
• 522 PvE gear will be capped at item level 496, which makes it equally viable as 476 PvP gear and far less viable than 496 PvP gear.

Note that the cap also applies to 498 PvP weapons, so they will be downgraded, too! *gasp*

We hope we could shed some light on the major PvP changes in 5.3. They will make PvP more accessible for PvE players while retaining balance and they address the problem of gear gaps and burst situations currently prevalent in PvP. Objectively seen these are good changes to PvP, but what do you think?

[Undeadmuffin 0]

I understand why they've made it more viable for PVE players to play PvP, but in my eyes it's kind of dumb they're two separate roles for a reason, and you strive to become greta in one or the other, or if you take the time both, they shouldn't just nerf it down to make it easier for the players who haven't put in the effort to gain the gear, just my opinion though of course

[Marco 51]

I updated the discussion to reflect my recent findings that not only damage increased by PvP Power was reduced with the nerf, but also the healing increase. I apologize for that inconvenience - I simply misinterpreted the line "PvP Power conversion ratio to obtain 1% damage at level 90 has been changed from 265 to 400" as "it only applies to damage".

I understand why they've made it more viable for PVE players to play PvP, but in my eyes it's kind of dumb they're two separate roles for a reason, and you strive to become greta in one or the other, or if you take the time both, they shouldn't just nerf it down to make it easier for the players who haven't put in the effort to gain the gear, just my opinion though of course

Well, since having PvP gear is still the best way to be viable in PvP, I do not see a problem here. Yes, PvP players have farmed honor gear, but that is why they are more powerful than PvE players. However it is nice not to be bursted down in an instant, and these changes do the right thing exactly - reduce frustration for beginners.

[Geeguspius 0]

I don't understand how you can pre-determine that the changes will be beneficial to the game. I would think that the jury is still out on that.

On a personal level, I feel it's a slap in the face to people who play and grind PVP gear *on a PVP server* As it stands right now, PVE gear is BIS outside of PVP instances.

Edited May 24, 2013 by Geeguspius

[Marco 51]

I don't understand how you can pre-determine that the changes will be beneficial to the game. I would think that the jury is still out on that.

On a personal level, I feel it's a slap in the face to people who play and grind PVP gear *on a PVP server* As it stands right now, PVE gear is BIS outside of PVP instances.

And PvP gear is still the best gear in the PvP game modes that matter: BG, RBG and Arena. World PvP is an issue now, yes, because the items are not scaled down there, but World PvP neither had balancing nor needs it, as it is just a cool feature, not one that was intended to be of competitive nature.

I can determine that this is a good change, because - regarding the PvP Power nerf - less damage and less healing mean that you live longer, so you have more time to take some action. And the PvP Resilience change is a good change, because it allows more players to play PvP with less frustration, yet it keeps PvP gear BiS.

[Geeguspius 0]

As of right now, askmrrobot.com shows PVE gear as being BIS in in every slot except weapon for my 90 Priest. I assume that is outside of PVP instances. I haven't checked my 90 DK and Pally yet, but it wouldn't amaze me if the results are much the same on them. That is unacceptable, especially on a PVP server.

[Marco 51]

As of right now, askmrrobot.com shows PVE gear as being BIS in in every slot except weapon for my 90 Priest. I assume that is outside of PVP instances. I haven't checked my 90 DK and Pally yet, but it wouldn't amaze me if the results are much the same on them. That is unacceptable, especially on a PVP server.

Ask Mr. Robot does not have PvP stat weights right now and uses a copy of the PvE stat weigths. You should not make an unfinished tool (They are working hard to improve that, though) your number 1 source of judgment, but instead apply some common sense. If every top tier PvP player uses PvP gear, what will be best in slot? Well, PvP gear I suppose. And again, World PvP was not meant to be balanced in the first place. If you try to please everyone, you fail to please anyone. Blizzard knows this as well, and they are well aware of the fact that they had to set priorities. In my opinion they chose the right priorities and improved core PvP gameplay, while one minor aspect of PvP suffered a bit. You can still go out there and do World PvP, it is not like they suddenly made PvE gear 200% more useful in that situation.

[Geeguspius 0]

Ask Mr. Robot does not have PvP stat weights right now and uses a copy of the PvE stat weigths. You should not make an unfinished tool (They are working hard to improve that, though) your number 1 source of judgment, but instead apply some common sense. If every top tier PvP player uses PvP gear, what will be best in slot? Well, PvP gear I suppose. And again, World PvP was not meant to be balanced in the first place. If you try to please everyone, you fail to please anyone. Blizzard knows this as well, and they are well aware of the fact that they had to set priorities. In my opinion they chose the right priorities and improved core PvP gameplay, while one minor aspect of PvP suffered a bit. You can still go out there and do World PvP, it is not like they suddenly made PvE gear 200% more useful in that situation.

Which finished tool are you using for your source of judgment? How do you apply common sense to what Blizzard does, lol??

I agree that WPVP is not balanced and probably never has been. But I say the it should swing in favor of a PVP'er, not a PVE'er. You PVP in WPVP, you don't PVE.

I don't see any warnings about BIS being incorrect for the WPVP environment at Askmrrobot. I do believe they are showing me the BIS for PVP outside of instances, which IS mostly PVE gear.

From what I gather, they don't have the info for INISDE of PVPinstances.

Yes, it does appear that PVE gear is BIS for PVP in WPVP, it can be up to ~ 40 ilvls higher.

Edited May 25, 2013 by Geeguspius

[Marco 51]

Which finished tool are you using for your source of judgment? How do you apply common sense to what Blizzard does, lol??

I agree that WPVP is not balanced and probably never has been. But I say the it should swing in favor of a PVP'er, not a PVE'er. You PVP in WPVP, you don't PVE.

I don't see any warnings about BIS being incorrect for the WPVP environment at Askmrrobot. I do believe they are showing me the BIS for PVP outside of instances, which IS mostly PVE gear.

From what I gather, they don't have the info for INISDE of PVPinstances.

Yes, it does appear that PVE gear is BIS for PVP in WPVP, it can be up to ~ 40 ilvls higher.

I use my brain as a tool and don't believe everything a tool tells me on the Internet, especially when it's unfinished.

Quote from Ask Mr. Robot's Gearing Strategy Tab:

PvP: Default

Hit (7.5%) > Agi > Exp > Haste > Crit > Mastery

These are auto-generated from the default PvE weights. More thorough PvP weights are forthcoming.

This is for the Windwalker Monk. You don't need 7.5% hit in PvP, but 3%. And at least 3% Expertise as well, to reach the spell hit cap. You can not rely on those values, because they are a copy of the PvE weights. PvE and PvP are entirely different game modes. It shows PvE gear best in slot because it does not know better.

Also, weigh 36% more damage due to PvP Power against an itemlevel increase of at average maybe 20 levels. Although it is an issue, having one more enemy or one more ally is more significant than having PvE or PvP gear. You can not say that one can have 476 honor gear and the other one 522 raid gear. These are two entirely different tiers. You can however compare 496 conquest gear and 522 raid gear, and this comparison will not show a huge difference due to the PvP Power that is an additional and free stat on the conquest item.

[Geeguspius 0]

Your brain is wrong on this one. It appears that the only time PVP gear outweighs PVE gear as BIS is inside of PVP instances. High level PVE gear rules over most conquest gear in WPVP. The weapon appears to be an exception.

Edited May 26, 2013 by Geeguspius

[Marco 51]

Your brain is wrong on this one. It appears that the only time PVP gear outweighs PVE gear as BIS is inside of PVP instances. High level PVE gear rules over most conquest gear in WPVP. The weapon appears to be an exception.

You don't get my argumentation. I admit that high level PvE gear is probably better in World PvP than standard PvP gear; Yet it does not matter since the change was positive for the rest of PvP gameplay, which makes up the significant amount of the PvP experience (the way you phrase it as "the only time" is very misleading). And I say as well that best in slot does not mean other things are not viable anymore. It is your turn to prove that PvE gear in World PvP is better by margins, not only by a slight amount.

[Geeguspius 0]

You have yet to prove that the change is positive. We can both make general statements. You seem to agree with mine that PVE gear can be better in WPVP.

Edited May 26, 2013 by Geeguspius

[Marco 51]

Well, it is clear to me that reducing frustration for new players and PvE players in PvP is a good change. I tried to argue that the World PvP has not been changed by a significant margin, and it would be indeed up to me to prove that. However, stating the counter argument also makes it mandatory for you to prove that the change was significant. The question is, who's going to crunch numbers now? ;)

[Geeguspius 0]

Well, it is clear to me that reducing frustration for new players and PvE players in PvP is a good change. I tried to argue that the World PvP has not been changed by a significant margin, and it would be indeed up to me to prove that. However, stating the counter argument also makes it mandatory for you to prove that the change was significant. The question is, who's going to crunch numbers now?

The numbers will get crunched with the release of Q2 quarterly reports. Whether there is a huge change between stats, there will probably be a perceived one. Perception means a lot.

Just got my tyrannical shoulders. There were 27 PVE shoulders that were better for PVP.

My counter argument is that the change is not good and it will increase frustration on the PVP side. My argument is just as valid as yours.