Help with low Frost DPS ilvl522 ToT

[slap 5]

Looking to the forums for some help on what I might be doing wrong in ToT with frost. My dps is around 100k for the raid which is the lowest in my group. I have been reading how I can improve some fights by changing talents which I will be trying on this weeks raid. Furthermore I was using rune of power last week and this week have switched to evocation which seems to be helping a lot (able to move more). I have also changed my opening sequence to the suggested from the forums.

Rotation: Frost rotation from forum using NT.

Toon: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/character/stormrage/Slapnticklee/advanced

Logs: http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/a115f6pxg77l63yh/details/9/

Some fights I know why my dps is week, take Jin Rok for example, I had 4 sparks one of which was during hero and killed my dps.

I see mages on the top of a lot of fights and have yet to get there. Any advice is greatly appreciated, brutal honesty will not hurt my feelings ;)

[solacespecs 14]

Well, since you said not to hurt your feelings... :)

Just being upfront and honest, yes, you are right in realizing there is a significant issue in your dps. You are doing damage on par with a mage of an ilvl of 500. Some questions I have for clarification:

1) Do you have a log for Jin'Rokh? I know you referenced it in your original post, but your logs do not include this fight. Instead, I see Ji'Kun, Durumu, Dark Animus, and Primordius, as well as some Iron Qon wipes.

2) What addons do you use?

In terms of your dps, I'll use Primordius as an example.

1) Your Invoker's Energy is low, at 53% uptime. Use Evocation more and don't let the buff fall off. 15% damage is significant.

2) You only used Presence of Mind one time. Spec out of this and go with Blazing Speed instead since you aren't really utilizing the ability anyway. Blazing Speed will help you get through the red oozes faster too.

3) It looks like a significant amount of your time is spent DPSing oozes (40% of your total damage went to oozes). Why is this the case? Were you guys having an add problem?

The log was a little unclear, so I tried looking at Dark Animus next. Things I noticed:

1) Invoker's Energy was much better here. However, your NT tick count was extremely low. As a result, your BF procs are also low; also low was your FoF procs.

2) I could go on about how the count of your abilities are low, but I think the real issue is that you must be spending more time moving and less time actually doing damage. I know you wiped several times on this boss, and undoubtedly as you get more successful attempts, you will become more comfortable and it will be easier to maximize your damage.

Next Steps:

Provide more logs, as the ones provided are a bit inconclusive. A fight that is pure dps with little movement would be the most beneficial in terms of advice. In terms of this, your Primordius fight is probably the best log you have, but Jin'Rokh would also be good. You could also jump into a LFR to provide more evidence.

[slap 5]

Well, since you said not to hurt your feelings...

Just being upfront and honest, yes, you are right in realizing there is a significant issue in your dps. You are doing damage on par with a mage of an ilvl of 500. Some questions I have for clarification:

1) Do you have a log for Jin'Rokh? I know you referenced it in your original post, but your logs do not include this fight. Instead, I see Ji'Kun, Durumu, Dark Animus, and Primordius, as well as some Iron Qon wipes.

2) What addons do you use?

In terms of your dps, I'll use Primordius as an example.

1) Your Invoker's Energy is low, at 53% uptime. Use Evocation more and don't let the buff fall off. 15% damage is significant.

2) You only used Presence of Mind one time. Spec out of this and go with Blazing Speed instead since you aren't really utilizing the ability anyway. Blazing Speed will help you get through the red oozes faster too.

3) It looks like a significant amount of your time is spent DPSing oozes (40% of your total damage went to oozes). Why is this the case? Were you guys having an add problem?

The log was a little unclear, so I tried looking at Dark Animus next. Things I noticed:

1) Invoker's Energy was much better here. However, your NT tick count was extremely low. As a result, your BF procs are also low; also low was your FoF procs.

2) I could go on about how the count of your abilities are low, but I think the real issue is that you must be spending more time moving and less time actually doing damage. I know you wiped several times on this boss, and undoubtedly as you get more successful attempts, you will become more comfortable and it will be easier to maximize your damage.

Next Steps:

Provide more logs, as the ones provided are a bit inconclusive. A fight that is pure dps with little movement would be the most beneficial in terms of advice. In terms of this, your Primordius fight is probably the best log you have, but Jin'Rokh would also be good. You could also jump into a LFR to provide more evidence.

Thanks for taking the time and for the info. Perhaps those weren't the best logs to link for obvious reasons. Here are some more logs from jin rok through meg. It also contains some heroic jin rok attempts. Let me know if this gives you some more info. If not I can get more.

Addons: recount, cooldowns, omen, DBM...

http://www.worldoflo...y4sh53ojadpl7z/

Thanks again

Edited May 20, 2013 by slap

[Oltier 471]

Hello fellow mage!

First of all, I'll be cruel but frank as well. On your item level, on many fights you should get into the top lists as a frost mage. I am not that good in giving tips in general, but I am much better in finding others' mistakes during a specific fight, so I will get into details on bosses if it's fine.

Here's the WoL of mine that I will compare to yours: http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/yii2engg42gr9rg3/sum/damageDone/?enc=bosses

and http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/grb6hfbqcanqdh94/dashboard/?s=5256&e=5774

And this is my toon: http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/character/moonglade/Oltier/advanced

• You are 0,04% under the hit cap. You might say "OMG IT'S NOTHING!" but ie. if you have a look at your Council logs, you had 3 misses of Nether tempest. This is not a big DPS loss, but it's just nothing really, to reach the hit cap. Just use ReforgeLite! addon in game and it'll do everything fo you.
• I won't talk about Horridon, Council and Magaera more, because you had rune of power on those fights, making it obvious why your dps was low. However, lets have a look at Tortos.

• You had 51% uptime of Invoker's energy compared to my 99%, whilst you had more casts of evocation, than me. Which tells me that, you don't wait until Evocation cast is being finished. If we are talking about Tortos, and you can see that Invoker's energy will fall off of you while having a Stomp, you should refresh it before the Stomp. For tracking your Invoker's energy buff you can use ie. Weakauras addon. With that, you can set the addon to yell at you when your buff has 5-10 seconds to fall, which is an awesome feature in my opinion. :3
• You had 44 Frostbolt hits, I had 102. This, ofc resulted in less Fingers of Frosts, and pretty much tells me, that you kinda stood in the middle, moving away from turtles constantly. Try staying to the sides, and use 1-1 Frostbolt cast on the turtles to slow them down, helping yourself and your raid. You have chosen Ice flows as your talent, but you only used it once. That is kinda wait. I'd also suggest you to choose Blazing speed and just reposition yourself quickly, then continue DPS normally.

• I'll skip Ji-kun and Dark animus because those are pretty tactic dependant fights. Lets see Durumu now. :)

• You had 90% Nether Tempest uptime compared to my 99%. The problem with this is, that your only DPS target is basically Durumu, and one of your very few Damaging ability is Nether tempest on Maze phase. You should really aim for 100% uptime on Nether tempest on every single boss fight. It's not hard at all to keep it up. Even on Multidot fights if you have a decent addon... Like ForteXorcist is my personal choice and it tracks debuffs on everysingle target in an encounter. You just have to set it up so that it will only track your nether tempest.
• Again you had much much less casts of Frostbolt which tells me that you moved too much again, inefficiently. :3 During maze phase you can easily stand in the melee path and just cast a few frostbolts, then move to the edge of the maze. more frostbolts etc etc. Just keep in mind, that you should refresh your invokers energy before entering maze phase, so that you will not have to evocate while running like a chicken. This should resolve the 75% buff uptime on invoker's energy. and as I can see you stood in blue beams usually so tehre should be no issue with refreshing it on time, really ^^
• You should also aim to use Frozen orb and mirror image during maze phase :) But that is not mandatory.

All in all. Use weakauras to make it shout at you for keeping up the Invoker's energy. Use ForteXorcist to make sure you keep up ur nether tempest all the time. Use your Fingers of frosts and Brain freeze well, and everything else on CD and you should be pwning the meters. If I could do it, you can as well. And I have to say I am pretty nab sometimes :D

[slap 5]

Hello fellow mage!

First of all, I'll be cruel but frank as well. On your item level, on many fights you should get into the top lists as a frost mage. I am not that good in giving tips in general, but I am much better in finding others' mistakes during a specific fight, so I will get into details on bosses if it's fine.

Here's the WoL of mine that I will compare to yours: http://www.worldoflo...one/?enc=bosses

and http://www.worldoflo.../?s=5256&e=5774

And this is my toon: http://eu.battle.net...Oltier/advanced

• You are 0,04% under the hit cap. You might say "OMG IT'S NOTHING!" but ie. if you have a look at your Council logs, you had 3 misses of Nether tempest. This is not a big DPS loss, but it's just nothing really, to reach the hit cap. Just use ReforgeLite! addon in game and it'll do everything fo you.

• I won't talk about Horridon, Council and Magaera more, because you had rune of power on those fights, making it obvious why your dps was low. However, lets have a look at Tortos.

• You had 51% uptime of Invoker's energy compared to my 99%, whilst you had more casts of evocation, than me. Which tells me that, you don't wait until Evocation cast is being finished. If we are talking about Tortos, and you can see that Invoker's energy will fall off of you while having a Stomp, you should refresh it before the Stomp. For tracking your Invoker's energy buff you can use ie. Weakauras addon. With that, you can set the addon to yell at you when your buff has 5-10 seconds to fall, which is an awesome feature in my opinion. :3
• You had 44 Frostbolt hits, I had 102. This, ofc resulted in less Fingers of Frosts, and pretty much tells me, that you kinda stood in the middle, moving away from turtles constantly. Try staying to the sides, and use 1-1 Frostbolt cast on the turtles to slow them down, helping yourself and your raid. You have chosen Ice flows as your talent, but you only used it once. That is kinda wait. I'd also suggest you to choose Blazing speed and just reposition yourself quickly, then continue DPS normally.

• I'll skip Ji-kun and Dark animus because those are pretty tactic dependant fights. Lets see Durumu now.

• You had 90% Nether Tempest uptime compared to my 99%. The problem with this is, that your only DPS target is basically Durumu, and one of your very few Damaging ability is Nether tempest on Maze phase. You should really aim for 100% uptime on Nether tempest on every single boss fight. It's not hard at all to keep it up. Even on Multidot fights if you have a decent addon... Like ForteXorcist is my personal choice and it tracks debuffs on everysingle target in an encounter. You just have to set it up so that it will only track your nether tempest.
• Again you had much much less casts of Frostbolt which tells me that you moved too much again, inefficiently. :3 During maze phase you can easily stand in the melee path and just cast a few frostbolts, then move to the edge of the maze. more frostbolts etc etc. Just keep in mind, that you should refresh your invokers energy before entering maze phase, so that you will not have to evocate while running like a chicken. This should resolve the 75% buff uptime on invoker's energy. and as I can see you stood in blue beams usually so tehre should be no issue with refreshing it on time, really ^^
• You should also aim to use Frozen orb and mirror image during maze phase But that is not mandatory.

All in all. Use weakauras to make it shout at you for keeping up the Invoker's energy. Use ForteXorcist to make sure you keep up ur nether tempest all the time. Use your Fingers of frosts and Brain freeze well, and everything else on CD and you should be pwning the meters. If I could do it, you can as well. And I have to say I am pretty nab sometimes

Thanks man! I will grab these addons when I get home and get them configured. Sounds like most of my problem is keeping things up, the adds should help a lot. Previously I was following the guide on noxxic (rune of power) and just found the forums here on icy, so far I am loving all the information and help. Thanks again for taking the time, really helpful.

[Damien 1,514]

Oltier, hiya

Since you are probably most helping frost mage around here, I can certainly use an advice too.

521 mage, http://us.battle.net...Areanu/advanced

WoL for my guild: http://worldoflogs.com/guilds/28237/ (we used to run two 10m teams, hence 2 logs for raid days).

All in all,my Inv and NT uptime suck, and sometimes FB uptime sucks as well.

I'm trying to make sure I have a good uptime via TMW addon (before it falls off and everytime it does big icons pop up on my screen telling me to fix that), yet I constantly fail at that.

I figured our discussion might be of a general use to a topic starter as well, hence posting it here.

Fight addons: ElvUI / TMW / DBM.

Is there anything else besides practicing uptimes?

Hey, I think it's best for you to start your own topic ;)

[areanu 16]

Roger that. Sorry. :)

[Oltier 471]

Thanks man! I will grab these addons when I get home and get them configured. Sounds like most of my problem is keeping things up, the adds should help a lot. Previously I was following the guide on noxxic (rune of power) and just found the forums here on icy, so far I am loving all the information and help. Thanks again for taking the time, really helpful.

This is why we are here, mate! I am glad that we could help! Please leave a feedback if we actually helped you out. ;)

[slap 5]

This is why we are here, mate! I am glad that we could help! Please leave a feedback if we actually helped you out.

Will do. Already loving weakauras, found some custom setting other mages made for NT and Invocation that are awesome.

[slap 5]

This is why we are here, mate! I am glad that we could help! Please leave a feedback if we actually helped you out.

Here is tonight's run. A little better now that I'm watching NT and invocation so closely. Let me know what you guys think. Still a ways to go but I think its an improvement: http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/xfzl28kokfqgwpaj/

[areanu 16]

Looks great. I actually feel like I don't even have a right to comment on that, with my figures beong only 10-15% ahead.

[Oltier 471]

Much, much better mate! On Twin consorts you actually had 97% uptime on both invoker's energy and NT which is really really good.

On Iron Qon Uptimes seem fine, though Invoker's energy could be higher, but I guess you were just getting to know each other with Weakauras on that fight :P However, I just realized that you pewpewd while the boss had Deadzone up and was shielded towards you. Don't do that, it's damage to the raid, and ugly miss numbers in your log ;)

You are still under that hit cap, that resulted in one miss of ice lance on Lei Shen which could have critted instead. However, your Nether tempest uptime was awesome on the boss, but your uptime of Invoker's energy was again, rather low. Even if you are in transition phases you want that buff to be on you, because adds might spawn on you that you have to kill quickly instead of wasting time to evocate.

Another thing is, that it seems to me that you used frozen orb at the wrong time. on 2nd phase and after that, you should save it for the ball lightnings. You will be able to use it on every second spawn of ball lightnings and will result in HUUUGEEE amount of Fingers of Frost procs that you can shoot at the boss, and if it is Glyphed it will pewpew the balls as well. For some reason you had far less Brain freeze and Ice lance procs, but I think that is just RNG :3 Or you might have moved too much. But I am not sure about this based on the logs. :)

Dohh I actually realized how much I slacked with using up Brain freeze procs in my log oO

[slap 5]

Much, much better mate! On Twin consorts you actually had 97% uptime on both invoker's energy and NT which is really really good.

On Iron Qon Uptimes seem fine, though Invoker's energy could be higher, but I guess you were just getting to know each other with Weakauras on that fight However, I just realized that you pewpewd while the boss had Deadzone up and was shielded towards you. Don't do that, it's damage to the raid, and ugly miss numbers in your log

You are still under that hit cap, that resulted in one miss of ice lance on Lei Shen which could have critted instead. However, your Nether tempest uptime was awesome on the boss, but your uptime of Invoker's energy was again, rather low. Even if you are in transition phases you want that buff to be on you, because adds might spawn on you that you have to kill quickly instead of wasting time to evocate.

Another thing is, that it seems to me that you used frozen orb at the wrong time. on 2nd phase and after that, you should save it for the ball lightnings. You will be able to use it on every second spawn of ball lightnings and will result in HUUUGEEE amount of Fingers of Frost procs that you can shoot at the boss, and if it is Glyphed it will pewpew the balls as well. For some reason you had far less Brain freeze and Ice lance procs, but I think that is just RNG :3 Or you might have moved too much. But I am not sure about this based on the logs.

Dohh I actually realized how much I slacked with using up Brain freeze procs in my log oO

All good points, Still getting used to it with different fight mechanics. That is only my 2nd encounter and kill on Lei Shen so I am still trying to find the right balance of moving and when to pop things (thanks for the advice on frozen orb). On both Lei Shen and Iron Qon invoker's was down for transition phases but brought back up right after. I can work on my timing and pop invocation before a transition to keep the buff up as close to 100% as possible. All and all I am happy with the improvements and will will continue to improve :)

I will fix my hit tonight ;)

[areanu 16]

Oltier, may I please act as a counter-weight regarding the attitude towards the hit cap?

From AMR: http://blog.askmrrob...about-hit-caps/

AMR has an option:

Enable "At Least" Mode(If enabled, Mr. Robot will ensure that you are not even slightly below the cap. Note that this is not always optimal -- if you aren't sure, leave it disabled.)

Now, I dont fully agree with AMR as a frost mage either. In fact, for my toon, hit > int, so I do understand how important it is.

I'm not 100% sure, but from my SimC experience — 0.15% below hit cap is just as bad as 0.25% over hit cap.

My point is, if Slap is 0.04% below hit cap, anything over 15.06% hit is not worth it.

Second is more of a question.

Why would you want to have 100% uptime on Invoker's energy? It lasts for 40 sec, then you spend about 2-2.5 secs renewing it. Taking into account world lag and latency, let's make it 3 sec.

Thus, every 43 seconds we miss the buff for 3 seconds, as it is the time we cast it.

40/43=93% uptime.

Edited May 21, 2013 by areanu

[Oltier 471]

Slap, I am happy that we could help you! If you still have any questions, don't spare me!

Araenu

Call me stubborn but I'd still say to reach the hit cap :D I mean... When you have 14,96% hit, there is still a very-very little chance that you will miss, MAYBE with a high int-buffed Ice Lance crit. You can usually solve the hit cap problem by reforging out of Mastery which is not that very useful stuff. Frankly, we are again talking about like 500 DPS difference which is not huge at all but my stubbornness didn't let me not to mention to reach hit cap :D

You are partly right here, but if you take into account that, you know you will have to move when invoker's energy expires, you want to refresh it before moving. Cuz simply you just in a safe spot. If it was lets say a Patchwerk fight, yes I would just let it fall spamming Frostbolt, and THEN refresh it. But there are really no patchwerk fights in this tier :D

[slap 5]

Slap, I am happy that we could help you! If you still have any questions, don't spare me!

Araenu

Call me stubborn but I'd still say to reach the hit cap I mean... When you have 14,96% hit, there is still a very-very little chance that you will miss, MAYBE with a high int-buffed Ice Lance crit. You can usually solve the hit cap problem by reforging out of Mastery which is not that very useful stuff. Frankly, we are again talking about like 500 DPS difference which is not huge at all but my stubbornness didn't let me not to mention to reach hit cap

You are partly right here, but if you take into account that, you know you will have to move when invoker's energy expires, you want to refresh it before moving. Cuz simply you just in a safe spot. If it was lets say a Patchwerk fight, yes I would just let it fall spamming Frostbolt, and THEN refresh it. But there are really no patchwerk fights in this tier

Doesn't the Buff last 60 seconds for Invoker's? not 40 seconds?

I am still getting used to weakauras and trying to get as close to 100% as possible but I find that a lot of mechanics give you time to refresh it. A perfect example is Megaera during the start of rampage. I blink to where we stack and refresh it prior to the next snake head appearing losing zero DPS. Sometimes you have to refresh it a little early or a couple seconds late depending on the fight and timing. I also have been trying to save procs for when I'm in the last 10 seconds so I can refresh and start right back in on DPS.

All in all a huge improvement for me this week compared to last week! http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-yqj9826co6e891y0/

What are you guys using for HM Jin'Rok for ionization and the spark phases, talent wise? I tried a bunch of different things none of which seemed to work real well lol.

[Oltier 471]

Doesn't the Buff last 60 seconds for Invoker's? not 40 seconds?

I am still getting used to weakauras and trying to get as close to 100% as possible but I find that a lot of mechanics give you time to refresh it. A perfect example is Megaera during the start of rampage. I blink to where we stack and refresh it prior to the next snake head appearing losing zero DPS. Sometimes you have to refresh it a little early or a couple seconds late depending on the fight and timing. I also have been trying to save procs for when I'm in the last 10 seconds so I can refresh and start right back in on DPS.

All in all a huge improvement for me this week compared to last week! http://www.worldoflo...j9826co6e891y0/

What are you guys using for HM Jin'Rok for ionization and the spark phases, talent wise? I tried a bunch of different things none of which seemed to work real well lol.

Here is my guide to Jin'rokh: https://www.icy-veins.com/forums/topic/1608-throne-of-thunder-mage-style/page__st__40#entry21920

It does last for 60 seconds. I was just a bit tired...

I am so happy to see that you try to make up strategies alone on fights like Magaera. What you said about rampage is perfectly true and I do it myself as well. A minor mistake that I have also done with the procs is, if you have trinket procs up etc, don't bother refreshing invocation before trinkets proc, or when they are procced, until the last second. So I mean... don't refresh Invo too early :) Just cast a few frostbolts instead and make sure you have nether tempest refreshed with strong int buffs and it won't fall off while you evocate.

[areanu 16]

slap,

60 seconds indeed. it used to be 40, but got recently changed. Still, 60/63=95% uptime. However, as Oltier pointed out, you might want to sacrifice couple of seconds before it fades off to be sure you have it during movement phase. Completely agree on that.

HM Jin'Rokh — you can ice block before Ionization, then click it off, and bingo — no debuff on you. I do think you can pop greater invis when it's on you during second phase, and it'll take it away, but have not checked myself yet. Be sure to not stand in the pool when popping it though.

Sparks — my team almost hugs the opposite wall during that phase, and that makes dodging fairly easy.

Edited May 22, 2013 by areanu

[Oltier 471]

slap,

60 seconds indeed. it used to be 40, but got recently changed. Still, 60/63=95% uptime. However, as Oltier pointed out, you might want to sacrifice couple of seconds before it fades off to be sure you have it during movement phase. Completely agree on that.

HM Jin'Rokh — you can ice block before Ionization, then click it off, and bingo — no debuff on you. I do think you can pop greater invis when it's on you during second phase, and it'll take it away, but have not checked myself yet. Be sure to not stand in the pool when popping it though.

Sparks — my team almost hugs the opposite wall during that phase, and that makes dodging fairly easy.

With cold snap, u can ice block every single ionization ;)

[areanu 16]

Yes, sorry, was at work, could not find time to have a look at the link you posted. Seems very, very reasonable. Thanks for sharing :)