Tempo Rogue Standard No BrM/LoE/Kara

[Paracel 165]

Swashburglar is naturally bad for fighting. It does not exactly contribute to the deck's already at some point lackluster minion fighting capabilities, so I wouldn't welcome him aboard.

[Guest FoeHammer]

Yeah, you've made it pretty clear you don't like the deck. We get it.

 

Coming from someone who has never played Rogue seriously at all, I personally think this is at least a fun and accessible deck, sort of a Rogue Zoo. I actually watched Sottle play it on Twitch before he even posted the deck list to the site, and he did have  a surprising amount of success with it.

 

Thanks for the input though.

[Rubidium 7]

2 hours ago, Paracel said:

Swashburglar is naturally bad for fighting. It does not exactly contribute to the deck's already at some point lackluster minion fighting capabilities, so I wouldn't welcome him aboard.

It's a 1 drop that replaces itself and is a combo activator, could be used to trade up with DID/Cold blood, can be comboed with Defender of Argus to make sure you get value

It is definitely better than Loot Hoarder/Gnomish Inventor in the list for sure.

[Paracel 165]

1/1 is not worth a card. Swashburglar is more of a 1-mana investment towards "Burgle" effect, much like Journey from Below. 

The problem here is that, unlike aforementioned Journey from Below or pirate's stepbrother Babbling Book, you can only roughly rate "Burgle" effect as a 1 card, because of how much variance it has compared to Discover or a Mage spell.

Journey from Below capitalizes on Deathrattle keyword. Babbling Book works because multiples of removal are good. Swashburglar does neither of this, and when efficient resource distribution and tempo advantages are you deck's strategic points, I would not trust him a lot as he simply accomplishes neither card selection nor combat.

Things change when you add Abusive Sergeant to the mix, however. An ability to contest 3 health is much appreciated and, in fact, makes up a decent early interaction core. Loot Hoarder is the weakest link, for sure, but then you absolutely lose your Unearthed Raptor potential, which should be kept in mind.

[mgoetze 6]

8 hours ago, Guest FoeHammer said:

Is there any place for Swashburglar in this deck? Seems like a fun card that might naturally be a good fit. Even if you topdeck it late in the game, you get an opponent class card right away that might be useful.

 

Does -2 Loot Hoarder +2 Swashburglar sound like a viable swap?

With Swashburglar you get a card that might be useful. With Loot Hoarder you get one that will definitely be useful. And the 2/1 body of the Loot Hoarder is better for trading up.

That said, if you enjoy playing with random class cards, go right ahead. Hey, thanks to my Unearthed Raptor, just now, I got not only an Eaglehorn Bow but also a Savannah Highmane! Take that, Silithid Swarmer.

[JooBatanete 4]

9 hours ago, Guest FoeHammer said:

Is there any place for Swashburglar in this deck? Seems like a fun card that might naturally be a good fit. Even if you topdeck it late in the game, you get an opponent class card right away that might be useful.

 

Does -2 Loot Hoarder +2 Swashburglar sound like a viable swap?

No. If you really want to play the card as a one off for the fun factor, you're much better off removing one gnomish, but I really wouldn't do it anyway. 

 

Keep in mind that drawing cards from your deck will tend to give you good cards that synergize with your current hand/board, but getting a random card from your opponent's class might give you something terrible. Plus a 1/1 without any special ability just doesn't do enough to justify playing it.

Edited August 31, 2016 by JooBatanete

[FanOfValeera 253]

How good this deck is against control decks, like freeze mages and control warriors?

[positiv2 953]

1 hour ago, FanOfValeera said:

How good this deck is against control decks, like freeze mages and control warriors?

The deck is unfavoured against most of control decks. From experience, both control warrior and freeze mage are some of the worst matchups. Freeze mage is able to clear the board and without sufficient burn spells, the deck suffers to finish the game before the opponent is able to drop Alexstrasza. If the mage draws poorly, you can win quite easily though. As for CW, it's important to play around Brawl. Gorehowl is an issue, but if you face a lot of weapon classes, you can include Acidic Swamp Ooze.

[Rubidium 7]

19 hours ago, Paracel said:

1/1 is not worth a card. Swashburglar is more of a 1-mana investment towards "Burgle" effect, much like Journey from Below. 

The problem here is that, unlike aforementioned Journey from Below or pirate's stepbrother Babbling Book, you can only roughly rate "Burgle" effect as a 1 card, because of how much variance it has compared to Discover or a Mage spell.

Journey from Below capitalizes on Deathrattle keyword. Babbling Book works because multiples of removal are good. Swashburglar does neither of this, and when efficient resource distribution and tempo advantages are you deck's strategic points, I would not trust him a lot as he simply accomplishes neither card selection nor combat.

Things change when you add Abusive Sergeant to the mix, however. An ability to contest 3 health is much appreciated and, in fact, makes up a decent early interaction core. Loot Hoarder is the weakest link, for sure, but then you absolutely lose your Unearthed Raptor potential, which should be kept in mind.

Webspinner was a card that saw play, which also had a 1/1 statline and replaced itself on death.

You also have to keep in mind that Abusive Sergeant is not the only tool that allows a 1/1 to trade up; a 1/1 can be played on turn 5 with Defender of Argus to get a 2/2, it could be used with cold blood to clear Darkshire Councilmen or Misha, it can also be played on turn 4 with SI;7 agent or used as an activator for Defias Ringleader. A 1/1 Body is not irrelevant, a 1/1 body is half an argent squire, which if it was completely irrelevant argent squire would not see play in this deck, but argent squire is one of the last cards I would remove from this list.

For a deck that has the key word "combo" on many of its cards, it often will not play on curve and will play more than 1 card a turn. This increases the importance of having cards that replace themselves when they are played, and Swashburglar does just that.

Unearthed Raptor is a card I would not run in this deck, and neither loot hoarders, because the 1 health on the spider really does make a world of difference and more often than not you will not be able to play this on curve on turn 3 AND get the deathrattle value.

Additionally, it's not a beast, so it cannot be drawn with the Curator and any beast synergy cards that you get from stealing Druid/Hunter cards cannot be applied to it, and given how common these classes are on ladder this beast synergy actually does matter.

Edited September 1, 2016 by Rubidium

[mgoetze 6]

10 hours ago, FanOfValeera said:

How good this deck is against control decks, like freeze mages and control warriors?

It's pretty terrible against C'Thun warrior. Turn 6 Justicar, Turn 7 Ancient Shieldbearer, Turn 8 I concede.

[mgoetze 6]

6 hours ago, Rubidium said:

Unearthed Raptor [...] cannot be drawn with the Curator

You must be playing a different deck entirely, then.

[positiv2 953]

15 hours ago, Rubidium said:

Webspinner was a card that saw play, which also had a 1/1 statline and replaced itself on death.

Random beast is better than a random opponent card.
The 1/1 itself has a beast tag and therefore can be used to get full damage from Kill Command or to get more value from Houndmaster - a tribe synergy. The Swashburglar doesn't have any in the deck.

15 hours ago, Rubidium said:

more often than not you will not be able to play this on curve on turn 3 AND get the deathrattle value.

You said yourself that this deck won't usually play on curve, so you shouldn't use "not playable on curve" as a reason not to include the card.

15 hours ago, Rubidium said:

Additionally, it's not a beast, so it cannot be drawn with the Curator and any beast synergy cards that you get from stealing Druid/Hunter cards cannot be applied to it, and given how common these classes are on ladder this beast synergy actually does matter.

The Curator is a card that is not included in the deck, and it should stay this way due to its high cost.
Swashburglar does not take cards from deck, but from class. That means if your opponent is a beast druid, you do not have higher chance of getting those beast cards. 

[Paracel 165]

2 hours ago, positiv2 said:

The 1/1 itself has a beast tag and therefore can be used to get full damage from Kill Command or to get more value from Houndmaster - a tribe synergy. The Swashburglar doesn't have any.

Arrrrrrrr?

(That's a really awful joke, though).

2 hours ago, positiv2 said:

Neither is Silithid Swarmer.
The Curator is a card that is not included in the deck, and it should stay this way.
 

Silithid is actually a Beast, they hotfixed it a light year ago. The Curator seems like a legit choice - instant board, draw 2 - a powerful top end option that deck feels to lack. Pick your poison, as they say.

[Rubidium 7]

4 hours ago, positiv2 said:

Random beast is better than a random opponent card.
The 1/1 itself has a beast tag and therefore can be used to get full damage from Kill Command or to get more value from Houndmaster - a tribe synergy. The Swashburglar doesn't have any.

You said yourself that this deck won't usually play on curve, so you shouldn't use "not playable on curve" as a reason not to include the card.

Neither is Silithid Swarmer.
The Curator is a card that is not included in the deck, and it should stay this way.
Swashburglar does not take cards from deck, but from class. That means if your opponent is a beast druid, you do not have higher chance of getting those beast cards. 

I agree with you on the point about beast synergy. I guess that does give the Webspinner an edge over the Swashburglar, as well a being a glaivezooka activator, so perhaps my comparrison was incorrect.

I said myself that the deck usually won't play on curve, and I still think "not playable on curve" is a reason not to include the card.

There are cards like SI:7 agent and Defias Ringleader, Cold Blood that are much much stronger when you manage to combo them and not play them on curve.

However the existence of these cards in the deck means that you MUST have something else to do on the turns leading up to them, and therefore you can't have too many cards that are not playable on curve. It feels really bad to play a naked SI:7 agent on turn 3, so you need something else to do on turn 3. That something else could be a 1 drop + defias ringleader on 3, or it could be you being forced to play a naked 3/4 raptor instead of waiting to play it on turn 5 with your undercity huckster because you cannot afford to fall too far behind in tempo.

Once you get too many cards that you can't play on curve, you run into problems, and there is a budget for how many of these cards you want to play on curve.

I understand that as it stands it is really not clear how good the swashburglar is. My gut instinct says it is more powerful than the loot hoarder, being half an argent squire and about two thirds of a card draw at the same time for 1 mana, which is actually a pretty good deal imo.

[positiv2 953]

@ParacelFixed the thing about pirate synergy make clear I meant that it does not have tribe synergy in the deck. As for the Silithid Swarmer, my bad, must have missed it somehow.
Curator is rather expensive for the deck. I feel like Ragnaros the Firelord would fit the deck better as it is a very good tempo card.
7 mana 4/6 is just too expensive and doesn't give you enough stats to compensate for it, which is a very similar problem with Varian Wrynn. Yes, you get to draw 2+1 cards from it, but it's a big investment, just like Sprint. If you draw your Silithid Swarmers and/or Azure Drakes before The Curator, it loses too much value imo. Maybe even Sprint is on the level of The Curator, where you sacrifice the 4/6 for (at least) 2 more cards. 

4 hours ago, Rubidium said:

being half an argent squire

Argent Squire's power is the divine shield. It allows you to trade up into 3/2s, gives you a good Cold Blood target as some decks might struggle to deal with the divine shield and the 5/1 at once, and when you buff her up and trade, you still have her on the board. Swashburglar can't do any of these tasks.

[Rubidium 7]

24 minutes ago, positiv2 said:

Argent Squire's power is the divine shield. It allows you to trade up into 3/2s, gives you a good Cold Blood target as some decks might struggle to deal with the divine shield and the 5/1 at once, and when you buff her up and trade, you still have her on the board. Swashburglar can't do any of these tasks.

Argent Squire makes for a much better cold blood target for repeated face damage than swashburglar when you have the divine shield, I agree.

Half a possessed villager. There we go :p. Swashburglar can provide a 1 damage ping somewhere down the line, just like argent squire, and that 1 damage ping isn't completely irrelevant.

Anyway I think this discussion isn't likely to be getting anywhere so I guess we'll just let time tell whether Swashburglars are making the tempo rogue lists.

[positiv2 953]

7 hours ago, Rubidium said:

Half a possessed villager. There we go :p. Swashburglar can provide a 1 damage ping somewhere down the line, just like argent squire, and that 1 damage ping isn't completely irrelevant.

The power of both Possessed Villager and Argent Squire is the ability to get rid of a 3/2, and to survive AoEs, allowing you have a platform to build from after the AoE. Swashburglar dies to AoE and cannot get rid of a 3/2. Yes, the 1-dmg ping is not irrelevant, but 2 of them are simply better and actually give you tempo, which is the aim of the deck.

[Rubidium 7]

8 hours ago, positiv2 said:

7 mana 4/6 is just too expensive and doesn't give you enough stats to compensate for it, which is a very similar problem with Varian Wrynn. Yes, you get to draw 2+1 cards from it, but it's a big investment, just like Sprint. If you draw your Silithid Swarmers and/or Azure Drakes before The Curator, it loses too much value imo. Maybe even Sprint is on the level of The Curator, where you sacrifice the 4/6 for (at least) 2 more cards. 

Sprint doesn't develop a 4/6 taunt on the same turn you play it - With sprint, you have a completely dead turn when you play it. With the Curator, it is like playing a sprint and drawing 1 less card, but drawing and playing a body worth 5 mana (With taunt very importantly) at the same time. The taunt is more relevant than ever with so many decks such as midrange hunter, dragon warrior and aggro shaman in the current meta that try to race you for face damage, and in a control matchup it's an above average card in your deck as it represents good value moreso than other cards in the deck.

Even if the curator only drew 1 card every time, it's a card that is still worth considering. A 4/6 taunt coming down right before Hunter's turn 8 call of the wild really forces them in an awkward situation (As long as you don't leave Savannah Highmane Up - Hopefully you have drawn sap to handle it) as they are forced to run huffer in AND find something else to run into the taunt, and if they dont find that something else it either kills both Misha and Huffer or kills Misha and effectively removed charge from huffer.

If you play this when you have only drawn 10 cards in your deck, the probability that you get two draws is ~80%. If you play this when you have drawn half your deck, the probability that you get two draws is ~55%. It's a reasonable risk to take to have this kind of pay off.

You are still right that it might just be too slow - but still, such a card should still be considered and not just written off immediately as being too slow.

I'm not saying that the curator is an autoinclude, but it's a card t

[positiv2 953]

1 hour ago, Rubidium said:

Sprint doesn't develop a 4/6 taunt on the same turn you play it - With sprint, you have a completely dead turn when you play it. With the Curator, it is like playing a sprint and drawing 1 less card, but drawing and playing a body worth 5 mana (With taunt very importantly) at the same time. The taunt is more relevant than ever with so many decks such as midrange hunter, dragon warrior and aggro shaman in the current meta that try to race you for face damage, and in a control matchup it's an above average card in your deck as it represents good value moreso than other cards in the deck.

If you play Sprint on turn 10 (or ever 9), you will often draw a minion to play with it thanks to the low curve. 
To draw 3 cards with The Curator, you need to run murlocs as well, which this deck does not, and you have to rely on RNG a bit so you don't draw your Azure Drakes or Silithid Swarmers first. If you draw both copies of either of those cards, The Curator loses too much of its value.
The taunt is often unimportant, as you don't have minions that need protection. As for the protection of your face, you have minions to keep the board clear, and you have Defender of Argus that gives you two taunts and does not create a target for Hex, Hunter's Mark or Execute. 
If you mean stat value, Ragnaros the Firelord is better. If you mean giving you more steam, Sprint does that too, but gives you more - at least two times the amount. I am not saying that Sprint should be played, just that I would run it over The Curator as my card engine.

1 hour ago, Rubidium said:

Even if the curator only drew 1 card every time, it's a card that is still worth considering. A 4/6 taunt coming down right before Hunter's turn 8 call of the wild really forces them in an awkward situation (As long as you don't leave Savannah Highmane Up - Hopefully you have drawn sap to handle it) as they are forced to run huffer in AND find something else to run into the taunt, and if they dont find that something else it either kills both Misha and Huffer or kills Misha and effectively removed charge from huffer.

Drawing a card is worth 3 stats, or 1.5 mana, and taunt is usually worth 1 stats, or 0.5 mana. You would pay 7 mana for 6,5 worth of stats, meaning that it would be a subpar card. You would be better off running Sen'jin Shieldmasta or Bog Creeper.
If you use Sap on Savannah Highmane, you can usually expect it again on turn 7. If you manage to kill it, the Hyenas will get buffed by Leokk and will be able to kill The Curator, which means that you either have spend a high amount of resources or be lucky and have another Sap, or else The Curator won't be of much help anyway.

1 hour ago, Rubidium said:

If you play this when you have only drawn 10 cards in your deck, the probability that you get two draws is ~80%. If you play this when you have drawn half your deck, the probability that you get two draws is ~55%. It's a reasonable risk to take to have this kind of pay off.

With 7 cards with card draw, you should not expect to be only 10 cards deep on turn 7. You should not expect to be able to play him on turn 7 due to the chance of drawing him. Given his mana cost, you do not want to keep him in your opening hand, so I think it's better to assume he is in the middle of the deck, which means you are on average 15 cards deep, so I think the 80% is simply too RNG reliant.
You may as well keep your Silithid Swarmer in your opening hand against most control decks, especially control warrior, but since you won't keep him in hand against aggro decks most of the time, it shouldn't affect the draw probability that much. 
Don't forget there is also chance of getting no draws at all even when The Curator is the 15th card in the deck. The probability is ~3,7%, which is very low in my opinion, but there may be players that don't want to risk that. As for the probability of getting 2 draws, I personally wouldn't risk it, but I see why you would, since it pays off more often that it does not. Still, my point is: does the possible advantage you get pay off for the possible disadvantage? But yeah, it *can* be considered, but I'd say it's on the consideration level of Unearthed Raptor - more or less fine to include, but it doesn't fit the deck that much to be a "primary swap".

[Rubidium 7]

12 minutes ago, positiv2 said:

If you play Sprint on turn 10 (or ever 9), you will often draw a minion to play with it thanks to the low curve. 
To draw 3 cards with The Curator, you need to run murlocs as well, which this deck does not, and you have to rely on RNG a bit so you don't draw your Azure Drakes or Silithid Swarmers first. If you draw both copies of either of those cards, The Curator loses too much of its value.
The taunt is often unimportant, as you don't have minions that need protection. As for the protection of your face, you have minions to keep the board clear, and you have Defender of Argus that gives you two taunts and does not create a target for Hex, Hunter's Mark or Execute. 
If you mean stat value, Ragnaros the Firelord is better. If you mean giving you more steam, Sprint does that too, but gives you more - at least two times the amount. I am not saying that Sprint should be played, just that I would run it over The Curator as my card engine.

Drawing a card is worth 3 stats, or 1.5 mana, and taunt is usually worth 1 stats, or 0.5 mana. You would pay 7 mana for 6,5 worth of stats, meaning that it would be a subpar card. You would be better off running Sen'jin Shieldmasta or Bog Creeper.
If you use Sap on Savannah Highmane, you can usually expect it again on turn 7. If you manage to kill it, the Hyenas will get buffed by Leokk and will be able to kill The Curator, which means that you either have spend a high amount of resources or be lucky and have another Sap, or else The Curator won't be of much help anyway.

With 7 cards with card draw, you should not expect to be only 10 cards deep on turn 7. You should not expect to be able to play him on turn 7 due to the chance of drawing him. Given his mana cost, you do not want to keep him in your opening hand, so I think it's better to assume he is in the middle of the deck, which means you are on average 15 cards deep, so I think the 80% is simply too RNG reliant.
You may as well keep your Silithid Swarmer in your opening hand against most control decks, especially control warrior, but since you won't keep him in hand against aggro decks most of the time, it shouldn't affect the draw probability that much. 
Don't forget there is also chance of getting no draws at all even when The Curator is the 15th card in the deck. The probability is ~3,7%, which is very low in my opinion, but there may be players that don't want to risk that. As for the probability of getting 2 draws, I personally wouldn't risk it, but I see why you would, since it pays off more often that it does not. Still, my point is: does the possible advantage you get pay off for the possible disadvantage? But yeah, it *can* be considered, but I'd say it's on the consideration level of Unearthed Raptor - more or less fine to include, but it doesn't fit the deck that much to be a "primary swap".

A convincing argument

 

What do you think of Shadow Strike?

[Guest Slivs]

Can anyone give tips against aggro shaman (mulligan, etc)? Weird enough, unlike anyone above, I'm having a easy time against Zoo (80% win rate) and Dragon Warrior (60%). But I'm having a hard time against aggro shaman and almost always is a insta lose matchup for me, I just don't know what to do.

[positiv2 953]

9 hours ago, Guest Slivs said:

Can anyone give tips against aggro shaman (mulligan, etc)? Weird enough, unlike anyone above, I'm having a easy time against Zoo (80% win rate) and Dragon Warrior (60%). But I'm having a hard time against aggro shaman and almost always is a insta lose matchup for me, I just don't know what to do.

As for mulligan, you should search for SI:7 Agents, Backstabs, Argent Squire and Undercity Huckster. 
You should avoid attacking big minions (Flamewreathed Faceless and Thing from Below)  with your weapon, unless necessary. It's also good not to waste your taunts. Sometimes it's also fine to keep Defender of Argus in hand for later turns after your opponent plays Doomhammer.

[Paracel 165]

Spirit Claws is the newest brand of Shaman cheese that can mean a lot of problems. Don't let that Wrath of Air Totem stick around.

If you think about beating Shaman, make a plan on how to beat Tunnel Trogg turn 1 and Totem Golem turn 2. Handling the signature tag-team is often enough to turn the tides in your favor. That means keeping all the early interaction and hoping for the best. They tech in AoE effects though, don't forget them.

[Rubidium 7]

9 hours ago, positiv2 said:

As for mulligan, you should search for SI:7 Agents, Backstabs, Argent Squire and Undercity Huckster. 
You should avoid attacking big minions (Flamewreathed Faceless and Thing from Below)  with your weapon, unless necessary. It's also good not to waste your taunts. Sometimes it's also fine to keep Defender of Argus in hand for later turns after your opponent plays Doomhammer.

I'm really not sure about keeping SI:7 Agent in Mulligan. I usually keep it on the coin unless I already have Defias Ringleader, but throw it if I'm going first unless I already have backstab. Is this wrong? 

[positiv2 953]

@RubidiumYou will often draw Backstab or Argent Squire on or before turn 4 (about half the time), so you will often have a way to combo SI:7 Agent. You also have a chance of getting them in the mulligan phase when you throw away the cards you don't want. If you already have a Defias Ringleader, then I'd say throwing SI:7 Agent is correct.
As for the Shadow Strike, I tried it, it improves winrate in control matchups, but makes aggro match-ups worse. Since you don't really care about your winrate against control, as you shouldn't play this deck in a control meta, Shadow Strike is not recommended.