Balance Druid 7.3

[Valks 2,375]

2 hours ago, Cheze said:

what I came here to ask is whether moon and stars influence the opener at all; i.e. would we rather cast moonfire/sunfire/new moon during incarnation to generate the haste stacks, or cast them before and just begin with half/full moon

I believe you stick with the same opener, rather than waste the time in Incarn

[Guest Haste Above Int?????]

On 8/30/2016 at 3:05 AM, Vlad said:

That is not a mistake, Haste above Intellect.

How do you stack Haste above Int? Can ANYONE TELL ME?

[Orthios 271]

9 minutes ago, Guest Haste Above Int????? said:

How do you stack Haste above Int? Can ANYONE TELL ME?

Simple, take two pieces of gear, one is a higher ilvl (more Int), but doesn't have haste on it.  The second is a slightly lower ilvl (less Int), but does have haste on it.  Unless the ilvl gap is rather large, you would use the second piece because it has haste on it.  Haste is simply worth more than intellect.

[Guest Divitiacus]

I think solar beam can trigger Sephuz's Secret. Need to confirm it in raid but worked on target dummy without even needing a silence so I think this might work. So in my opinion it can be rated higher because it can be a 10sec haste bonus on a 1min (or 45sec) CD.

[Valks 2,375]

6 hours ago, Guest Divitiacus said:

I think solar beam can trigger Sephuz's Secret. Need to confirm it in raid but worked on target dummy without even needing a silence so I think this might work. So in my opinion it can be rated higher because it can be a 10sec haste bonus on a 1min (or 45sec) CD.

I don't believe this is an intended effect. I believe it is bugged, since WWs can also trigger it by applying effects that a boss is Immune to. Let me know what your testing finds.

[Valks 2,375]

Generic comment being mass posted over the comments threads guys.

We are aware of the changes and our writers are working hard to update the guides to suit what has changed. Currently, there is a lot of work still to be done and it's unlikely that every guide will be up-to-date immediately. Expect a flood of updates over the coming days that will answer all of your questions about what is now best after X change, in time for the reset next week.

Thanks for your understanding and patience.

[Blowmymace 0]

My main spec is Resto druid but while levelling as Balance in Legion should I level my Balance artifact weapon till i hit LVL 110 or Level up Resto artefact weapon instead ? I levelled a resto shammy's artefact while levelling in legion instead of one of the DPS specs and found that it takes a lot longer to kill mobs if your DPS artefact stays at 0 upgrades from 100-110. Not sure how to go about this...

[Valks 2,375]

3 hours ago, Blowmymace said:

My main spec is Resto druid but while levelling as Balance in Legion should I level my Balance artifact weapon till i hit LVL 110 or Level up Resto artefact weapon instead ? I levelled a resto shammy's artefact while levelling in legion instead of one of the DPS specs and found that it takes a lot longer to kill mobs if your DPS artefact stays at 0 upgrades from 100-110. Not sure how to go about this...

Realistically, it won't matter all that much. The amount of AP you earn while levelling is miniscule compared to the amount you earn at 110. 

The majority of the DPS increase comes from the relics you find anyway, since it boosts the item level.

[aceofsween 1]

I was wondering if you could provide more information about the stat weights, particularly with how they were derived.

While I think everyone agrees that Haste is our most valuable secondary stat, I struggle with the idea that it is more valuable to us that intellect.  The only information provided is that these were done using Simulation Craft.  However, that doesn't tell us much.  Furthermore, other models seem to give a much higher stat weight to Int, with Haste coming in second, and all other stats being generally comparable.  Therefore, I'd be interested to know a few more details about how that value was derived, if they are available.

 

Secondly, I do think a little more discussion should be given to Shooting Stars, which seems to have been glossed over a little bit.  At 2+ targets, Shooting Stars begins to give more Astral Power gains than casting Solar Wrath with Blessing of Elune.  For Lunar Strike, it is 3+.  However, while our DoTs should always be up and procing, we are not always casting Wrath or Lunar Strike.  This benefit also carries over to any movement we experience, again surpassing Blessing of An'she at 2+ targets. (Before haste, Shooting Stars gives 0.4 AP/s per target, Blessing of Elune gives .75 AP/s for Solar Wrath and 1 AP/s for Lunar Strike, and Blessing of An'she is .67 AP/s.)  Furthermore, unlike the other talents in this tier, Shooting Stars does give a direct boost to our damage, in addition to the indirect effects of additional Astral Power generation.

All that being said, Blessing of Ancients is still the clear winner win it comes to a single target fight, but Shooting Stars becomes extremely powerful with even one additional target.

[Valks 2,375]

12 hours ago, aceofsween said:

While I think everyone agrees that Haste is our most valuable secondary stat, I struggle with the idea that it is more valuable to us that intellect.  The only information provided is that these were done using Simulation Craft.  However, that doesn't tell us much.  Furthermore, other models seem to give a much higher stat weight to Int, with Haste coming in second, and all other stats being generally comparable.  Therefore, I'd be interested to know a few more details about how that value was derived, if they are available.

Depending on where you are with gear currently, your Haste/Int priority fluctuates. At the start of the expansion, where we see less raw stats available, Haste is clearly superior. The guide is yet to be updated for the release of EN, so it's possible that the priority will be adjusted to represent the fact that Intellect becomes better at points with higher gear. 

12 hours ago, aceofsween said:

All that being said, Blessing of Ancients is still the clear winner win it comes to a single target fight, but Shooting Stars becomes extremely powerful with even one additional target.

Will ask for this to be double checked by the reviewer, but from what I can see from a quick sim, on pure damage, BoA wins on damage on 2 targets. The major factor will be movement vs. 2 targets, since BoA still does more damage until 3 targets appear.

[Crouky 0]

Hi ! I follow this guide and it's really great work ! When it will be updated ? 

Excuse my english 

[Valks 2,375]

10 hours ago, Crouky said:

Hi ! I follow this guide and it's really great work ! When it will be updated ? 

Excuse my english 

There isn't really much to be changed in the guide. The changes to Balance were just flat damage increases to 4 baseline abilities, so everything stays pretty much exactly the same, except a small increase in the damage done by Balance.

[Nervana 0]

I'm hearing a lot of places now that Mastery is now our 2nd-best secondary stat, but the guide still has it ranked a clear last.  Can anybody confirm or deny this?  

Also, I've been scouring the web trying to find a thread for tips/discussion of which talents balance druids are choosing for each individual raid encounter - with no luck.  Is anybody aware of such a resource/thread or perhaps we can get one started here?

Thanks!

[Valks 2,375]

3 hours ago, Nervana said:

I'm hearing a lot of places now that Mastery is now our 2nd-best secondary stat, but the guide still has it ranked a clear last.  Can anybody confirm or deny this?  

Also, I've been scouring the web trying to find a thread for tips/discussion of which talents balance druids are choosing for each individual raid encounter - with no luck.  Is anybody aware of such a resource/thread or perhaps we can get one started here?

Thanks!

After Haste, for Boomkin, things become very dependent on gear level. The next 3 secondaries are VERY close to each other. If you want to know which one comes next in your "priority" of gearing, I'd recommend simming your character. Every boomkin will most likely get slightly different results depending on what gear level you are currently at, as well as the actual amount of each stat you have.

The discrepancies between resources on secondaries after Haste really isn't that important. It's basically Haste > the rest.

For the thread on raid encounters, I'll put together one for the Druid forum. Keep an eye out for it tonight at some point.

[aceofsween 1]

On 9/27/2016 at 11:09 PM, Blainie said:

Will ask for this to be double checked by the reviewer, but from what I can see from a quick sim, on pure damage, BoA wins on damage on 2 targets. The major factor will be movement vs. 2 targets, since BoA still does more damage until 3 targets appear.

I think that makes sense.  From my experience, we still have a roughly 50/50 split between Lunar Strike and Solar Wrath.  I don't find myself using a filler as it's somewhat rare to have situations where both Empowerments are down and New/Half/Full Moon is also off cooldown.  With the split, that's roughly an average of 0.875 AP/s.  Additionally, I hadn't consider at first how Celestial Alignment would play into this.  Assuming Blessing of Ancients stacks with Celestial Alignment (which I believe is the case), during that time you get a bonus of 87.5% Astral Power to the base, as opposed to a bonus of 50%.  With only 2 targets, we will also have Celestial Alignment, which is a 16.7% uptime over 3 minutes.  That will also skew things in favor of Blessing of Ancients more.  

I would still expect the sims to be close, though I'm curious what the margin is.  I think we can agree that as long as movement is not a major factor in the fight, Blessing of Ancients is better at 1 or 2 targets.  With movement, Shooting Stars is better at 2 targets, and flat out better at 3+.

 

And I appreciate the graph of Int vs. Haste.  That is very helpful.

 

(Note:  edited just for clarity.)

Edited September 30, 2016 by aceofsween

[Valks 2,375]

2 hours ago, aceofsween said:

I would still expect the sims to be close, though I'm curious what the margin is.  I think we can agree that as long as movement is not a major factor in the fight, Blessing of Ancients is better at 1 or 2 targets.  With movement, Shooting Stars is better at 2 targets, and flat out better at 3+.

I think that's a good summary, for sure, at least from what I saw in sims. I've put a note in to the writer to be passed on to our reviewer, which can then be added to the guide.

Anyway, hope I helped and if you have more questions, don't hesitate to ask!

[aceofsween 1]

On 9/27/2016 at 11:09 PM, Blainie said:

Anyway, hope I helped and if you have more questions, don't hesitate to ask!

Just one question, about the graph.  Mostly, I'm wondering how to interpret it.  

Edit:  Actually, I think it just dawned on me.  The graph represents the change in DPS as you add or subtract a particular stat (haste or int, in this case), correct?  With the 0 point being whatever value was calculated from that particular sim? 

Considering the multiplicative nature of stat weights (and how they fluctuate according to each other), I'm curious if we could generate a chart that shows the DPS differences as one stat increase while all others are held constant.  (There's a mathematical term for this I remember from fluid mechanics, but it's escaping me).  In particular, I'd like to see Int and Haste with any of the other 3 stats (since their weights are all relatively close).  The idea behind this reminds me of calculating fluid flow through a pipe, which is an iterative process (unless you already know the Reynolds number).  It may be more effort than it's worth in the end.

Edited September 30, 2016 by aceofsween

[Valks 2,375]

22 hours ago, aceofsween said:

Just one question, about the graph.  Mostly, I'm wondering how to interpret it.  

Edit:  Actually, I think it just dawned on me.  The graph represents the change in DPS as you add or subtract a particular stat (haste or int, in this case), correct?  With the 0 point being whatever value was calculated from that particular sim? 

Considering the multiplicative nature of stat weights (and how they fluctuate according to each other), I'm curious if we could generate a chart that shows the DPS differences as one stat increase while all others are held constant.  (There's a mathematical term for this I remember from fluid mechanics, but it's escaping me).  In particular, I'd like to see Int and Haste with any of the other 3 stats (since their weights are all relatively close).  The idea behind this reminds me of calculating fluid flow through a pipe, which is an iterative process (unless you already know the Reynolds number).  It may be more effort than it's worth in the end.

You're correct on what the graph means.

It's possible I'm sure, but I'm not sure how to do it. Will look into it and see what could be done.

[Guest Oura]

Totally random question but is Moonkin viable at high end? I'm leveling one now and I am really enjoying it - but how far off is their DPS from "top tier" ? 

[Valks 2,375]

2 hours ago, Guest Oura said:

Totally random question but is Moonkin viable at high end? I'm leveling one now and I am really enjoying it - but how far off is their DPS from "top tier" ? 

Definitely viable, you won't be stopped from joining a group just for playing Moonkin that's for sure.

[Varelas 0]

Hello, just wondering whats up with the new bis trinkets? I can see how "Stormsinger Fulmination Charge" can be really powerful, but why "Naraxas' Spiked Tongue" instead of "Chrono Shard" or the previous bis trinket from Nythendra with haste and insect swarm proc? Thanks. 

[Archimage 98]

What is the recommended Mythic+ build?
In most cases we fight 4+ mobs every 25 seconds. So I would think Shooting Stars + Stellar Drift would be good choices.

[aceofsween 1]

17 hours ago, Varelas said:

Hello, just wondering whats up with the new bis trinkets? I can see how "Stormsinger Fulmination Charge" can be really powerful, but why "Naraxas' Spiked Tongue" instead of "Chrono Shard" or the previous bis trinket from Nythendra with haste and insect swarm proc? Thanks. 

I can only speculate a few things.  For Stormsinger Fulmination Charge, the 1631 intellect is a big driver, but the proc is incredibly powerful as well.  You would want to play around with the timing so that when it peaks, you can cast 2 Starsurges (I would assume).  There is also ~0.7 PPM.  I am curious how this beats out several other trinkets, though.  For example, the Moonlit Prism from Cordana seems particularly good for us (and pairing it with Fury of Elune could produce exceptional results, I would imagine).

 

I can't explain why Naraxas's Spiked Tongue is listed over Swarming Plaguehive.  Assuming the Wowhead data is correct, Plaguehive does 21351 DPS while Naraxas's Spiked Tongue gives only 101112 DPS.  Even if the Plaguehive could overwrite itself immediately, it would do more damage.  Additionally, we know Haste is a better stat for us.  

Twisting Wind, on the other hand, has just a dreadful proc.  Less than 5k DPS at 880, and that assumes all 10 seconds of the tornado connect (which is far from guaranteed).  It's questionable whether the gains from the Intellect outweighs the lackluster proc.  At higher stat values, it may simply due to all other stats generally being more valuable as you gain higher values in a particular one.  It also does not benefit from our Nature bonus from Moonkin Form (which others  do).

Edited October 5, 2016 by aceofsween

[aceofsween 1]

8 hours ago, Archimage said:

What is the recommended Mythic+ build?
In most cases we fight 4+ mobs every 25 seconds. So I would think Shooting Stars + Stellar Drift would be good choices.

For Mythic+, it really depends on how long the trash is alive (so by extension, how high your Keystone is).

In generally, I stick with Shooting Stars and Nature's Balance.  Shooting Stars definitely overtakes Blessing of Ancients at 3+ mobs, and Nature's Balance allows us to keep Moonfire up indefinitely since Lunar Strike will be the primary filler.  Sunfire isn't an issue, because it is an AoE application.

 

That being said...  Once you get to a certain point where trash is taking 30 to 60 seconds a pull, Fury of Elune becomes an incredible option.  It is one of the most powerful cleaves in the game.  However, I noticed during the Sanguine affix, trash was regularly pulled out of my beam to move it out of the ichor making it much more difficult to use effectively.  In generally, once trash gets up to +6 or +8, Fury of Elune becomes a great option.  The single-target DPS losses on Boss fights are negligible in comparison.

 

I probably would never use Stellar Drift, mostly because mobs are generally stacked for cleave.

[Guest Sigzil]

On 9/18/2016 at 9:34 PM, Cheze said:

what I came here to ask is whether moon and stars influence the opener at all; i.e. would we rather cast moonfire/sunfire/new moon during incarnation to generate the haste stacks, or cast them before and just begin with half/full moon

To the reply you got for Blainie, I would have to disagree with him. You should cast Half Moon like normals, but you should postpone the use of Full Moon. Hard casting it would waste Incarn time and the Haste buff from it. You should stack the haste buff A little before you cast Full moon. It's been a DPS increase for me doing it this way. 

You should just test both out and see how it works for you.