Guardian Druid 7.3

[Naowh 2]

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I'm a tad confused about Mastery/Haste as our stat priority when Crit/Mastery is what is on our artifact...

Critical Strike gives us no defensive benefit apart from a small increase to our dodge percent, therefor making it a lower priority than Haste.

 

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I have a question for the artifact, even if it's not in this guide yet. Which golden trait should we pick first as guardian ?

I'm describing this in the Legion guide that is going to be released soon, be patient my friend!

Cheers,
Naowh

[Naowh 2]

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I strongly disagree with the tier 3 talent choices. Feral affinity is by FAR the best and really only good choice in this tier. If you are running 5 mans then balance could come into play for when a dps accidentally aggros another mob but other than that the extra range is kind of pointless and the heal from resto is just bad. Feral affinity is currently offering ~30% dps increase which is HUGE. However, the playstyle completely changes with it. You guys should add that feral is the top choice and give a in dept guide over how to bearcat.

This guide was written for current WoW and mostly HFC, I'm going to change this part for Legion.

Cheers,
Naowh

[PatrickHenry 293]

If you're feeling rage-starved, and haven't taken Galactic Guardian Spec into it.  I went from feeling utterly rage starved with Incarnation: Guardian of Ursoc to rage capped consistently on 2 targets.  I highly recommend it. 

Watch for those procs!

Edited August 17, 2016 by PatrickHenry
added previous talent

[PatrickHenry 293]

Guardian spec was tinkered with the last Hotfix - Mastery down and Ironfur up.

August 23 Hotfixes

Guardian

• Nature’s Guardian now increases health and healing received by 4% (was 8%). The Mastery amount has also been reduced accordingly.
• Ironfur now increases Armor by 100% (was 75%).

Less Mastery stacking - more Ironfur planning, it seems... too bad they didn't similarly buff Ursol for magic protection...

[Guest OverlordXeros]

Mastery got nerfed by half and they buffed ironfur by 25%.

[Wonderdog 0]

On 8/8/2016 at 0:09 PM, Guest Xikren said:

I have a question for the artifact, even if it's not in this guide yet. Which golden trait should we pick first as guardian ?

Personally, I'm leaning towards Gory Fur - picking up Bear Hug en route for a total of 12 points invested.

Gory Fur itself is nice, but going this way first will also give you Ursoc's Endurance which increases the duration of Ironfur, Barkskin and Mark of Ursoc by 1.5 seconds - which when stacked with the Guardian of Elune talent is a huge survivability boost as you'll almost always be able to keep at least 1 stack of ironfur up at all times in combat, with plenty of periods of overlap when there are two or more stacks boosting overall damage mitigation even further. IMO this will be really valuable early on when gear is weak, so you wont have loads of haste to build fury for ironfur - so having it run longer per activation will be helpful.

Having to pick up Vicious Bites en-route will also give a big damage boost to your main hard hitting rotational attack (Mangle).

After that - I'd go straight for Adaptive Fur (22 points total), as the skills en-route improve the effectiveness of your ironfur, frenzied regen and barkskin significantly.

Finally I'd go for Embrace the Nightmare (via the Bloody Paws route), then after that pick up the three points in Bestial fortitude. I'd leave Mauler and Roar of the crowd for last - as you probably dont want to be using maul when you could be spending the rage on more Ironfurs. 

IMO Guardian has a particularly nice Artifact tree, lots of desirable stuff that buffs our rotational abilities, and improves the coverage of our active mitigation and cooldowns. Very little situational filler abilities or extra activated abilities late in the tree to worry about - its basically ALL gravy :P

[Guest Winterly]

Hi, recently the stat priority had been updated, it used to be

Mastery

Haste

Vers

The updated list is

Vers >= Mastery

Haste

 

So I was wondering if someone could fill me in on why this had changed please. 

[untameable 1]

Hello Winterly, the old stat priority was current with the legion pre-patch, before mastery nerfs and before legion gear. Haste has become less of a priority for multiple reasons, a few examples would be the high amount of armor from legion gear means soon we will be reaching armor cap just from having a 3x iron-fur buff. Previously we were stacking haste for higher rage generation for more iron-furs, but as we reach the point were we usually wont need more then 2x ironfurs on us, gearing with more haste after reaching a point were you can generate enough rage to have a 2x buff rolling on you with a medium-high uptime when needed is unnecessary. Also with the artifact trait gory fur, it becomes even easier to have a high up-time on iron-furs which was our primary reason to stack haste as a guardian.

 

So with haste no longer being as useful to prioritize and the nerfs to our mastery, versatility has transitioned to our best stat to prioritize to maximize our surviviblity. Versatility compliments our mastery very well as our mastery increases our health pool and healing received while vers increasing our healing done and reduces the damage we take which helps with reducing spikes in our health which helps with recovering our large health pools.(700 Mastery equals 1% extra max HP and 1% extra healing received, 800 Vers equals 2% healing done and 1% less damage taken).

 

TL;DR haste is not as useful as it was before and we gain alot more benefits out of prioritizing versatility.

 

 

 

Edited September 12, 2016 by untameable

[Guest an anonymous toad]

I have a question about the level 100 talent choice,  you say Pulverize add's no damage, but my Thrash stacks only do 25k bleed damage while pulverize does 180k damage. so Pulverize does 180k, while 2 thrash stacks do 50k and the Swipe pulverize replaces does 62k.  so based on this Pulverize adds 68k damage every ~10 seconds or 6.8k dps which really isn't that different than Rend and Tear in single target situations.

[Valks 2,375]

12 hours ago, Guest an anonymous toad said:

I have a question about the level 100 talent choice,  you say Pulverize add's no damage, but my Thrash stacks only do 25k bleed damage while pulverize does 180k damage. so Pulverize does 180k, while 2 thrash stacks do 50k and the Swipe pulverize replaces does 62k.  so based on this Pulverize adds 68k damage every ~10 seconds or 6.8k dps which really isn't that different than Rend and Tear in single target situations.

We do not say that it adds no damage, simply that it adds less than R+T.

If you are in a position of single-target sustained damage, they are pretty much equal. Rend and Tear wins in AoE. Due to this, there isn't much point in taking Pulv.

[Guest Parthian]

Do you perhaps have the numbers for the stat priority? or is there no real definite as to the usefulness of each stat. I was just hoping to be able to put the numbers in Pawn to try and get a general idea of what would be an upgrade or not.

[Valks 2,375]

37 minutes ago, Guest Parthian said:

Do you perhaps have the numbers for the stat priority? or is there no real definite as to the usefulness of each stat. I was just hoping to be able to put the numbers in Pawn to try and get a general idea of what would be an upgrade or not.

At the moment, it's pretty tough to maintain proper weights for gear as opposed to a priority. Your best bet for finding them is probably the Druid discord. You can find a link here:

https://www.icy-veins.com/forums/topic/16114-class-discord-channels/

[Guest Purrfected]

Hi,

Is there a updated pawn string for guardian with the new priority order?
Noxxic hasn't updated.

[Valks 2,375]

17 hours ago, Guest Purrfected said:

Hi,

Is there a updated pawn string for guardian with the new priority order?
Noxxic hasn't updated.

We generally try to stay away from listing weights and strings due to difference in gear, priority etc.

Your best bet is to sim your own character for weights that fit what you currently need.

[Guest an anonymous toad]

On 9/15/2016 at 6:27 AM, Blainie said:

We do not say that it adds no damage, simply that it adds less than R+T.

If you are in a position of single-target sustained damage, they are pretty much equal. Rend and Tear wins in AoE. Due to this, there isn't much point in taking Pulv.

ah my bad i misinterpreted "Pulverize has no offensive benefits whatsoever" to mean it didn't have any in a vacuum, instead of it didn't have any compared to Rend and Tear.  still i think marking it as an X when it's the best single target pick in the tier is misleading.

[untameable 1]

16 hours ago, Guest an anonymous toad said:

ah my bad i misinterpreted "Pulverize has no offensive benefits whatsoever" to mean it didn't have any in a vacuum, instead of it didn't have any compared to Rend and Tear.  still i think marking it as an X when it's the best single target pick in the tier is misleading.

This depends on if you are looking at this talent from a pure dps or survivablity point of view. In either case pulverize is not the best single target pick in the tier. From a pure dps standpoint, in a patchwork encounter that lasts longer then one minute taking pulverize is still a 6-8% dps loss over maintaining a 3 stack R&T. (Keep in mind that R&T affects all your damage from all your abilities done to the target, and in a single target encounter were you are concerned about your dps you should be catweaving which benefits much more from R&T). In an encounter shorter then 30 seconds lunar beam pulls ahead significantly. From a survival PoV R&T and pulverize are close, even though pulverize offers 2% more damage reduction the offensive benefits of taking R&T make R&T a better talent. Pulverize is not bad,if you want the extra 2% (Only in a pure single target encounter,R&T becomes much better even at 2 targets) it's just not the best in the tier. 

Edited September 18, 2016 by untameable

[Valks 2,375]

Thanks @untameable, saved me from having to put that up and probably managed to make it a lot more detailed than I could!

[Valks 2,375]

Generic comment being mass posted over the comments threads guys.

We are aware of the changes and our writers are working hard to update the guides to suit what has changed. Currently, there is a lot of work still to be done and it's unlikely that every guide will be up-to-date immediately. Expect a flood of updates over the coming days that will answer all of your questions about what is now best after X change, in time for the reset next week.

Thanks for your understanding and patience.

[Guest Druid!]

Hello - 

I was looking for stat weights that line up with this guide's recommended stat priority (that would also include Stamina values) but I could not find any... i.e. how much of an ilvl upgrade would an item with Haste and Crit need to be to take it over Versatility?

[Guest Martinson]

Hey, question about gearing.

I was looking at your 'BIS' page. And I noticed that it was updated around the time where your stat priority page was updated.

The stat priority suggests that versatility is best stat whereas crit is worse. I don't see much versatility on a lot of the pieces the guide advises to keep an eye out for, and a lot of crit and haste. Is this simply out of date. Or are there not many pieces that have versatility and a good other combo, such as mastery or haste.

In terms of minmaxing, should I take pieces that have versatility and mastery over something say mastery and haste, if it has a lower item level, losing out on stamina and armor but gaining more, of my most valuable stats? So far I refuse any higher item level armor if it just has crit and haste, only upgrading if it has verse and mastery, verse and haste, or mastery and haste. Am I overthinking this process? Because so far I think it has yielded positive results I can take damage better than a lot of other tanks I'm raiding with who have a gearscore 5 to 10 points higher.

Any advice is welcome.

[Valks 2,375]

23 hours ago, Guest Druid! said:

Hello - 

I was looking for stat weights that line up with this guide's recommended stat priority (that would also include Stamina values) but I could not find any... i.e. how much of an ilvl upgrade would an item with Haste and Crit need to be to take it over Versatility?

I'll see what I can do about getting this added.

[Valks 2,375]

10 hours ago, Guest Martinson said:

Any advice is welcome.

Emerald Nightmare is TERRIBLE for Vers gear. I mean absolutely dreadful. The list basically tries to keep all gear constant with what drops in the raid, since there is no real BiS for M+ (ridiculous WF procs etc.). This is the best you can get without bringing in M+ gear.

You're currently doing the right thing gear-wise, yes.

[Guest Guest Martinson]

3 hours ago, Blainie said:

Emerald Nightmare is TERRIBLE for Vers gear. I mean absolutely dreadful. The list basically tries to keep all gear constant with what drops in the raid, since there is no real BiS for M+ (ridiculous WF procs etc.). This is the best you can get without bringing in M+ gear.

You're currently doing the right thing gear-wise, yes.

Alright. Might I suggest updating the BIS page for verse and mastery pieces you can get in mythic +s? I've seen 880 pieces with the right stats that drop from those. And some druid tanks might be pursuing the 'BiS' from the Emerald Nightmare, and gimping themselves in the process. I see a lot of tanks, especially druid tanks as we are the bandwagon tank, just wear what ever has the higher item level with no thoughts of minmaxing.

[Valks 2,375]

17 hours ago, Guest Guest Martinson said:

Alright. Might I suggest updating the BIS page for verse and mastery pieces you can get in mythic +s? I've seen 880 pieces with the right stats that drop from those. And some druid tanks might be pursuing the 'BiS' from the Emerald Nightmare, and gimping themselves in the process. I see a lot of tanks, especially druid tanks as we are the bandwagon tank, just wear what ever has the higher item level with no thoughts of minmaxing.

I'll see what I can do, but there's a slight problem with including dungeon BiS. Let's use Necks for Guardian as an example. Technically, these are all BiS for Guardian:

• Chaos-Forged Necklace
• Raven Filigree Pendant
• Strand of the Stars
• Brysngamen, Torc of Helheim

Throw in the possibility of RNG sockets, Warforged rolls, Titanforged rolls, literally any of these could be BiS. Even something that is Haste/Versatility from the dungeons could technically be your BiS at that point due to it rolling a TF/WF proc up to 895 and a socket. Including the dungeon loot makes things so much more difficult because there is a 100+ item level range on where these items rest.

Our list technically is still the BiS from EN, but we're purposefully omitting most drops from dungeons because of how unreliable it is and how lucky you need to be.

[Guest Martinson Martinson]

2 hours ago, Blainie said:

I'll see what I can do, but there's a slight problem with including dungeon BiS. Let's use Necks for Guardian as an example. Technically, these are all BiS for Guardian:

• Chaos-Forged Necklace
• Raven Filigree Pendant
• Strand of the Stars
• Brysngamen, Torc of Helheim

Throw in the possibility of RNG sockets, Warforged rolls, Titanforged rolls, literally any of these could be BiS. Even something that is Haste/Versatility from the dungeons could technically be your BiS at that point due to it rolling a TF/WF proc up to 895 and a socket. Including the dungeon loot makes things so much more difficult because there is a 100+ item level range on where these items rest.

Our list technically is still the BiS from EN, but we're purposefully omitting most drops from dungeons because of how unreliable it is and how lucky you need to be.

Alright fair. It's probably difficult/Not worth the effort....and honestly not needed I suppose since people have the adventure guide and can simply look up gear that has high mastery / verse.

At the cost of being belligerent, could I echo what some other's have asked? Is there a threshold where a loss in mastery/Verse is made up by a gain of haste, agility or stamina. So that we don't accidentally gimp ourselves by using an 830 or 840 for too long, refusing to upgrade because something isn't minmax-y enough, when a piece that has verse/haste or mastery/haste yields greater survive-ability due to higher armor/stamina? Does anyone have a good system or metric in place that the would recommend?