Marksmanship Hunter 7.3

[Azortharion 60]

3 hours ago, Guest lol said:

did you ever sim rune of re-origination? It makes your marked shot crit for about 700k and aimed for about 550k (for me with 745 ilvl without the rune) in the opener (ring + pot). Makes up for some insane burst since it makes your mastery explode up to 75% (over 300% dmg boost on the focus using abilites). The haste drain doesnt rly matter too since you get a 100% marking targets in your opener anyways.

It's terrible.

[Azortharion 60]

1 hour ago, Guest timoseewho said:

hi, great guide, 2 simple questions for ya regarding priorities

1. is Barrage > Aimed Shot with Vulnerable? the choice comes up sometimes after you get your Marked Shot off, applying Vunerable, AND Barrage being off cd

2. if Marking Targets procs again right after you get your Marked Shot off from the previous Marking Target, should you still try to get 2 Aimed Shots off with Vulnerable before using up that second Marking Targets proc? there are rare cases where Marking Targets procs again between your 2 Aimed Shots and Marked Shot>_<

thanks

1) Barrage.

2) Yes, you don't have to use Marking Targets right away unless it's about to expire (super unlikely) or unless Sidewinders reaches 2 charges.

[Guest Unforged]

Great guide, thanks!

One thing I am confused with is that in your guide you mention that you want to get as many Aimed Shots off as possible when Vulnerable is on the target. In my opinion that means that the rotation will be as follows: "Sidewinders (with Marking Target active) > Aimed Shot > Aimed Shot > Marked Shot > Aimed Shot > Aimed shot" right? (With the assumption made that you can only cast 2 Aimed Shots before Vulnerable expires) Because Sidewinders itself will debuff the target with Vulnerable as well.

Why do I see then in warcraftlogs that everyone (including you on mythic Archi) is immediately casting Marked Shot after it procs? Can you elaborate on that?

[Azortharion 60]

it does not technically matter what order you do it in. You just decide whether you wanna dump most of the focus before or after the Marked Shot. Your rotation is the exact same as mine except you take one Aimed Shot from after the Marked Shot and put it before instead.

You are just looking at the opener, I do not do as you describe in a normal single target case.

Most people just play by intuition, and the "intuition" is to cast Marked immediately after Sidewinders. Just goes to show that people have no idea how to play the game.

[Guest Unforged]

41 minutes ago, Azortharion said:

Your rotation is the exact same as mine except you take one Aimed Shot from after the Marked Shot and put it before instead.

Yeah figured that after posting my comment, my bad.

Quote

You are just looking at the opener, I do not do as you describe in a normal single target case.

I checked your logs (and others) around 1 minute in, so not in the opener. I noticed that you do cast Marked Shot immediately after Sidewinders several times. As you can see in my image below, this is around 1 minute in. Or is this because there are adds about to die so you want to get another Marked Shot off on all of them before they die? Then I get your point :)

[Azortharion 60]

[darquis 0]

Possibly a dumb question, what does the (S) after some of the trinkets mean? 

Also, Mr Robot is recommending the blues from Legion invasions for ring/neck - are the secondary stats on those that strong that they make up for the lack of agility?

[Azortharion 60]

It means it has a socket.

They are not, Ask Mr Robot is confused about those.

[Guest LC82]

why use aimed-marked-aimed? due to artifact trait, marked shot increases aimed shot crit dmg and marked-aimed-aimed is better, but when lots of movement is needed, it is hard to be rooted for 4 consecutive seconds by 2 aimed shots and amied-marked-aimed comes into play.

what about windburst? it has no use at all? its vulnerability debuff could be useful from time to time when switching between prio targets

 

also, not sure(can't play for 2 more weeks and can't test), but  what is wrong with using sidewinders so that vulnerability debuff is always present on targets? sidewinders have 2 charges. When using one charge(with patient sniper), it applies debuff for 6 seconds, right? after 6 seconds using the second sidewinder charge will reapply debuff immediately. After 6 more seconds the first charge will be completely recharged since 12 seconds will be elapsed after using it. Then, after 6 more seconds, the second charge will be fully recharged and ready etc. Rinse and repeat. So, we'll have vulnerability debuff 100% of the time. Is it incorrect? why dropping vulnerability debuff to use marked shot during "crucial times"? Is not it a huge dps loss?

[Azortharion 60]

There is no Artifact at level 100.

Marked Shot applies Vulnerable, too.

Your post seems like a bit of a mess to me. Yeah, you can maintain Vulnerable 100% of the time, that's the entire point of the spec, but uptime on the buff is irrelevant if you're not making use out of it. Rather make 100% use out of 80% than 70% use out of 100% uptime.

[Guest LC82]

I know that there is no artifact at 100, but I thought this guide was for 110 level characters and  the rotation was for raids at 110.
I know that marked applies vulnerable too, but my point is that we can't maintain 100% debuff on targets if we rely only on marked shots. You said that we have to use sidewinders only if we reach 2 charges(not to waste) or when there is a marking targets proc to activate hunter's mark and marked shot. Did you test "using sidewinders in every 6 seconds strictly" strategy and did you measure dps out of it? how did it compare to your "let vulnerable debuff drop" strategy?

Don't think I am saying anything weird

Thanks

[hellyessir 0]

Thanks the spec seems pretty decent even though everything feels nerfed. I'm still trying to deal with a couple of things to be comfortable playing it:

• The RNG can really screw you up and downtime makes me impatient sometimes making me be further punished by spamming something I shouldn't.
• The need to save focus for barrage on CD, because it really makes a difference.

I would also like to recommend a macro for the spec:

/cast !auto attack
/cast Barrage

For the opener you always want to start your auto attack before anything else, and to not risk misclicking or having to press an inconvenient key bind for simple auto attack this seems useful to me.

[Azortharion 60]

6 hours ago, Guest LC82 said:

I know that there is no artifact at 100, but I thought this guide was for 110 level characters and  the rotation was for raids at 110.
I know that marked applies vulnerable too, but my point is that we can't maintain 100% debuff on targets if we rely only on marked shots. You said that we have to use sidewinders only if we reach 2 charges(not to waste) or when there is a marking targets proc to activate hunter's mark and marked shot. Did you test "using sidewinders in every 6 seconds strictly" strategy and did you measure dps out of it? how did it compare to your "let vulnerable debuff drop" strategy?

Don't think I am saying anything weird

Thanks

It's not, as you can see it references the prepatch in the changelog.

Like I've said once already, 100% uptime is irrelevant if you're not making the most out of it. The goal isn't really "100% uptime" as much as it is "as many Aimed Shots under Vulnerable as possible" which is what the guide achieves. Sidewinders + Marked is gonna give you 12 seconds of Vulnerable on its own, if you Sidewinders every 6 seconds indiscriminately you'll just override one of these all the time. The guide's rotation achieves having a Sidewinders charge already ready to go, which is incredibly helpful in a practical situation because it'll allow you more Marked Shots during AoE, by spending the free charge when it is more useful.

You also seem to forget that Marking Targets won't just proc every 6 seconds, and it certainly isn't always up so I am not sure what you were imagining here, have you played the spec to reach this conclusion or just read the tooltip of abilities?

[Azortharion 60]

1 hour ago, hellyessir said:

Thanks the spec seems pretty decent even though everything feels nerfed. I'm still trying to deal with a couple of things to be comfortable playing it:

• The RNG can really screw you up and downtime makes me impatient sometimes making me be further punished by spamming something I shouldn't.
• The need to save focus for barrage on CD, because it really makes a difference.

I would also like to recommend a macro for the spec:

/cast !auto attack
/cast Barrage

For the opener you always want to start your auto attack before anything else, and to not risk misclicking or having to press an inconvenient key bind for simple auto attack this seems useful to me.

Your macro is flawed. Barrage disables Auto Shot for a brief while regardless of what you macro it to.

Besides..

[Guest LC82]

5 hours ago, Azortharion said:

It's not, as you can see it references the prepatch in the changelog.

Like I've said once already, 100% uptime is irrelevant if you're not making the most out of it. The goal isn't really "100% uptime" as much as it is "as many Aimed Shots under Vulnerable as possible" which is what the guide achieves. Sidewinders + Marked is gonna give you 12 seconds of Vulnerable on its own, if you Sidewinders every 6 seconds indiscriminately you'll just override one of these all the time. The guide's rotation achieves having a Sidewinders charge already ready to go, which is incredibly helpful in a practical situation because it'll allow you more Marked Shots during AoE, by spending the free charge when it is more useful.

You also seem to forget that Marking Targets won't just proc every 6 seconds, and it certainly isn't always up so I am not sure what you were imagining here, have you played the spec to reach this conclusion or just read the tooltip of abilities?

Ok, I'll try one last time and hopefully,my post won't be misinterpreted incorrectly and it will be taken properly. I'll try to make it as clear as possible.
 

First of all, thank for your reply, I appreciate it.I don't want to look like I am arguing just for argue. I just need things to be clarified.
Like I said, I can't test it myself for a few more weeks and therefore I am coming here and asking you to clarify things by providing real numbers without speculations and "feelings"(if I could test it myself, there would be no point in coming here and writing walls of texts). which I did not get. Ok, no problem,let's move on.

I get your point that uptime is irrelevant if not making most out of it ,but what I am trying to say is that you seem to get most out of it if not proven otherwise by numbers. Let's take a look: You are not utilizing sidewinders at full strength by not casting them strictly in every 6 seconds and delaying them. Sidewinders give lots of focus which can be used to dump aimed shots(which become powerful with artifact traits at 110). My point is that you can get lots of aimed shots during debuff and you'll have1 00% uptime on debuff in this way(casting sidewinders in every 6 seconds). Moreover, at 110 during execution phase, 100% uptime on debuff seems very attracting due to 100% crit chance and powerful aimed shots. I want you test it at 110 when you create a new guide. I trust your numbers.

As to "Sidewinders + Marked is gonna give you 12 seconds of Vulnerable on its own"- this is correct, but you need to delay casting marked shot for about 6 seconds after casting sidewinders, right? So, we have marking targets proc and our next sidewinders applies vulnerability debuff. We cast sidewinders and debuff is on the target for 6 seconds, we also get hunter's mark and marked shot is activated(which also applies vulnerable debuff). If we cast marked shot right away after sidewinders, we loose debuff from it since the debuff from sidewinders will be overwritten. Correct? in order to get that consecutive 12 second debuff from sidewinders+marked shot, we need to delay casting marked shot for 6 seconds after casting sidewinders. Is that incorrect? I am just asking questions. I am not trying to insult anyone or something like that. So, it's hard to say anything without testing real numbers, but this strategy seems like a dps loss to me (not utilizing sidewinders at full potential and/or delaying marked shots+ dropping debuff). At 100 it could not be a big dps loss unlike 110, but still.

I know it's RNG and marking targets proc can either happen more than once during that 6 seconds window, or it can't occur at all. When it procs, we have 15 seconds to utilize it. It would be no problems since casting sidewinders in every 6 seconds will deal with it.Chances that we get more that one proc during 6 seconds debuff is very low.
As to AoE, I fully agree. we loose some dps if we cast sidewinders on a single terget in every 6 seconds, but maybe at 110 windburts will help with single target right before adds are about to come out to reserve sidewinders charge for them.

Anyway, I think this conversation wil go nowhere. Sorry for wasting your time and thanks again. I appreciate it. Would like some real numbers though.

Keep it up, dude!

MM hunter in Legion is a very complicated spec.

Best Wishes

 

[Azortharion 60]

To clarify: There's nothing inherently wrong with your idea, it's just not better than what's already established (it's exactly as good), but it has the potential to be much worse in a practical situation.

1) You are utilizing Sidewinders at full strength by not ever reaching 2 charges. That is the only point at which you can irrefutably say that you are not utilizing them enough.

2) Sidewinders only gives 1 Aimed Shot's worth of focus.

3) You do not have to delay Marked Shot for 6 seconds after using Sidewinders, though it is a good idea. If you use it right after Sidewinders, you'd just be casting the Aimed(s) that you would've otherwise cast inbetween Sidewinders and Marked, after Marked instead. Instead of SW > Aimed > Aimed > Marked > Aimed or SW > Aimed > Marked > Aimed Aimed, you do SW > Marked > Aimed > Aimed > Aimed. You still get 1 Marked Shot and 3 Aimed Shots per Sidewinder - possibly 4. The order in which you do them technically doesn't matter, because you must consider the focus available to us, which is the same regardless of how we do this order, provided we do not focus cap.

This is what I mean with us not really having to have 100% uptime. We just need to maximize the amount of Aimed Shots we get per Vulnerable buff. Ignoring Lock and Load procs, we can on average get 3-4 Aimed Shots per Sidewinders/Marked Shot combo, regardless of the order we choose to do it.

Your version gets 100% uptime on Vulnerable, but you'll still be limited by focus to cast Aimed Shots. Instead of deliberately introducing downtime which is what I tend to do (ingame, I tend to do:

1. Sidewinders:
2. <Wait till Vulnerable is 0.5s from expiring, or I I reach ~149 focus, whichever comes first. If I reach 149 focus, I Aimed Shot then Marked. If Vulnerable is about to expire, I Marked>
3. Aimed Shot until dry (3 back to back usually, 4 tends to be possible with a 2pc proc)
4. Wait for ~70 focus, or Sidewinders to be 1 second from reaching 2 charges, whichever comes first, then cast Sidewinders.
5. Repeat.

I am not exactly sure what your version is. On one hand you acknowledge that you tend to delay Marked Shot for 6 seconds after Sidewinders, on the other you wanna cast Sidewinders every 6 seconds, all the time. But instead of Marked Shot overwriting the Vulnerable applied by Sidewinders, this just causes the Sidewinders Vulnerable to overwrite the Marked Shot one.

Here's my best guess:

1. Sidewinders
2. <Wait till Vulnerable is 0.5s from expiring, or I I reach ~149 focus, whichever comes first. If I reach 149 focus, I Aimed Shot then Marked. If Vulnerable is about to expire, I Marked>
3. Aimed Shot until dry OR Sidewinders (not sure which?)
4. If you Aimed Shot before then Sidewinders now.

If you Sidewinders for step 4, you'll only have focus for 1 Marked and 1 Aimed right away. The rest you'll have to wait for focus to do. Which is fine, because you'll still only get 3-4 Aimeds per Sidewinders+Marked, just like my rotation. You'll just be waiting to cast those Aimed Shots rather than doing them back to back. You'll also always be keeping Sidewinders entirely on cooldown, which makes you less flexible when it comes to using that Sidewinders for encounter mechanics.

[Guest LC82]

yeah, that is more like it. If we have focus problems, then this will change everything, but let's see how it plays out at 110 with lost of haste.

what I mean by not utilizing sidewinders at full strength is that we can at maximum cast 10 sidewinders per minute(in every 6 seconds). When one charge of sidewinders is sitting fully recharged and unused(even though 2 stacks is not reached yet), this seems like a lack of utilization of sidewinders. Less casts per minute if we let the first charge be there unused for some time.

and the second clarification about marked shot:
 

1 hour ago, Azortharion said:

I am not exactly sure what your version is. On one hand you acknowledge that you tend to delay Marked Shot for 6 seconds after Sidewinders, on the other you wanna cast Sidewinders every 6 seconds, all the time. But instead of Marked Shot overwriting the Vulnerable applied by Sidewinders, this just causes the Sidewinders Vulnerable to overwrite the Marked Shot one.

 

No, I said it's better to delay marked shot with your tactics(to achieve 12 seconds debuff), but according to my preferred tactics, you don't have to delay marked shot at all, since we don't have a problem with vulnerable debuff due to sidewinders cast in every 6 seconds. Yes, debuff will be overwritten sometimes, but don't see a huge problem with it. Still 100% uptime on it.

Thanks. That makes more sense already

[Azortharion 60]

It's not a lack of utilization as long as you end the fight with 0 charges of Sidewinders. It's simple maths. You got X amount of Sidewinders in a fight. The only way to lose any of them is to have it be off cooldown at 2 charges, or not ending the fight with 1 or 2 charges left.

[Guest LC82]

5 minutes ago, Azortharion said:

It's not a lack of utilization as long as you end the fight with 0 charges of Sidewinders. It's simple maths. You got X amount of Sidewinders in a fight. The only way to lose any of them is to have it be off cooldown at 2 charges, or not ending the fight with 1 or 2 charges left.

Don't get it. Let's assume fight lasts for 60 seconds. we have 2 charges of sidewinders, each one recharges on its own, so we can use 10 sidewinders in total in 60 seconds. Now, let's assume I used the second sidewinder only during a fight and the first sidewinder charge at the end of the fight, so that by the end of the fight I have 0 charges, this will accumulate 5+1=6 sidewinders, not 10.
where did I misunderstand?

[Azortharion 60]

The cooldown on Sidewinders is 12 seconds, not 6 seconds.

Try and hit Sidewinders every time it's available ingame and then come back and tell me how many Sidewinders you can cast before a minute has passed, and you'll see what I mean. You have to see it for yourself to understand it, I think.

[Guest LC82]

1 minute ago, Azortharion said:

The cooldown on Sidewinders is 12 seconds, not 6 seconds.

Try and hit Sidewinders every time it's available ingame and then come back and tell me how many Sidewinders you can cast before a minute has passed, and you'll see what I mean. You have to see it for yourself to understand it, I think.

I know that cd is 12 seconds, but we have 2 charges(12/2=6). This was what I was trying to tell you in my first post that you did not get and said it was messy.

You are right, it is hard to write without testing an actual ability(been away from wow for months), but you are here and hopefully, can clarify. And hopefully you will follow.

fight begins; we have 2 charges of SW, I used one charge(1 sec of fight); after 6 seconds I used the second charge(7 sec. of fight). AT this time the first used charge will be recharged 50%, since 6 seconds will be passed after using it. after 6 more seconds(when vuln. debuff will expire from the second charge of SW), we can use the first charge again(13 sec. of fight) which is fully recharged etc.
I am in a bad state due to I can't login wow and check, but I can assure I have seen this tacts many times on youtube by various testers. they used SW in every 6 seconds.

Ok, let's finish here.

thanks

[Azortharion 60]

Just now, Guest LC82 said:

I know that cd is 12 seconds, but we have 2 charges(12/2=6). This was what I was trying to tell you in my first post that you did not get and said it was messy.

You are right, it is hard to write without testing an actual ability(been away from wow for months), but you are here and hopefully, can clarify. And hopefully you will follow.

fight begins; we have 2 charges of SW, I used one charge(1 sec of fight); after 6 seconds I used the second charge(7 sec. of fight). AT this time the first used charge will be recharged 50%, since 6 seconds will be passed after using it. after 6 more seconds(when vuln. debuff will expire from the second charge of SW), we can use the first charge again(13 sec. of fight) which is fully recharged etc.
I am in a bad state due to I can't login wow and check, but I can assure I have seen this tacts many times on youtube by various testers. they used SW in every 6 seconds.

Ok, let's finish here.

thanks

I bolded the part where you're wrong. When you use the third SW after 12 seconds has passed, it's another 12 seconds before you can use the next one. Not 6. This is why I invited you to go try it for yourself, beta or live doesn't matter, because I wanted you to realize this yourself because at that point it would all *click*.

[Guest LC82]

14 minutes ago, Azortharion said:

I bolded the part where you're wrong. When you use the third SW after 12 seconds has passed, it's another 12 seconds before you can use the next one. Not 6. This is why I invited you to go try it for yourself, beta or live doesn't matter, because I wanted you to realize this yourself because at that point it would all *click*.

Can't wait to test. That is so lame, makes no sense. We can't even maintain 100% guaranteed vulnerable debuff in this case. Thanks

 

[Shdwhntr 0]

Sorry to barge-in but yeah. Besides, in order to use SW it's better to have the proc, otherwise just don't touch it.

I have a question regarding gear.

I have a few pieces of heroic gear with the current stat priority but my current gear with crit+multi has higher ilevel.

Should I prioritize ilevel over stats??? Or go with the stats although its lower ilevel.

 

 

[Azortharion 60]

That is what the stat weights are for. That is literally, beyond all else, what they were made for. Use them to find the answer, with Pawn or AskMrRobot.