Survival Hunter 7.3

[Guest Shiyou]

On 11/2/2016 at 4:18 PM, Radius112 said:

 

Direct prosequences:

• You gain AoE DPS, especially in cleave situations. While in a full AoE pack you may not want to build the stacks, but if you've already got the stacks from another pull (like in a M+) or a ST boss, then just mashing RS every once in a while to keep the buff is worth it for the gain.
• The playstyle is much more fluent, if you like it that way. The non-WotM playstyle is much more about just mashing whats not on CD and sometimes you just get in these wierd gaps.

 

Sorry, I gotta disagree. It takes too much focus to keep it up, and even then you're going to lose upkeep up Mongoose Fury and possibly lose the bonus on FotE. Not to mention, the focus you're using for this is taking away from your ability to Flanking strike and Carve (if you're doing AoE, simply one carve will probably out dps the difference in trying to keep 12% AP, not to mention, the focus difference you're losing 2.5 carves to try keeping it up.)

The playstyle doesn't become 'fluent', it becomes more annoying to try to use your other moves while thinking 'crap, I took this talent that says I should keep it at 4 stacks'. when it's  far from a priority at a lot of fight intervals.

Your example of a mythic is sort of confusing because in a mythic, there's a VERY good chance of it dropping off. Why did you bring it up? If anything, it's a con, not a pro.

Otherwise, I'm still not seeing the use of Wotm over animal handler. The reduction to AotE alone is worth it, not to mention doesn't require excessive focus wasting to use (unless you have it where it reduces FS's cd where it might tempt you to use it faster before you get more focus, but if Aote is down, I think it prioritizes that.)

I am still seeing no problem staying at 3 mongoose bites charges, so... I don't have too much downtime in ability usage, and actually have trouble deciding to waste mongoose bites, or apply Explosive/dragonsfire moreso when it comes to single target because of how often I get it.


And has anyone done any tests of the spitting cobra with carve/butchery for the extra focus regen yet?

Also, any changes on Aspect of the beast potential? Like with the new animal handler and pet damage increase ring, will the DoT get a tick or two huge burst for reapplying it?

[Guest Quixote]

Hi, I was looking at the trinket list, and it shows the eye of command without the kara chest being better than having it with the chest. Is there something that I'm missing that would cause that to happen?

[Ziggers 0]

@Azortharion This game bores me now with how little room for variation, I dont know why the haste cap is there but I assume its value fades as you get more because procs would be ineffective if they do 0 damage. Mastery is a complete waste of a stat unless your entire rotation revolves around mongoose bite. At that Point I would stack mastery and haste alone, maybe a little crit but crits would remain a luxury. I dont do math, it also bores me

[Valks 2,375]

On 16.11.2016 at 3:48 AM, Guest Shammikaze said:

What happened to Twisting Wind in the trinket simulations?  Previously it was listed as one of the top trinkets for Survival.  (It does trigger for us still, right?)

Honestly not sure, tbh. It might have been fixed or changed. Will tag @Azortharion, he can probably help more than I can!

[Valks 2,375]

11 hours ago, Guest Quixote said:

Hi, I was looking at the trinket list, and it shows the eye of command without the kara chest being better than having it with the chest. Is there something that I'm missing that would cause that to happen?

Not sure. Will ask.

[Valks 2,375]

10 hours ago, Ziggers said:

@Azortharion This game bores me now with how little room for variation, I dont know why the haste cap is there but I assume its value fades as you get more because procs would be ineffective if they do 0 damage. Mastery is a complete waste of a stat unless your entire rotation revolves around mongoose bite. At that Point I would stack mastery and haste alone, maybe a little crit but crits would remain a luxury. I dont do math, it also bores me

I'm deeply confused by this comment. What are you trying to say/achieve?

[Guest ddog880]

The talents needed are all wrong on this website... im a survival hunter and if you use those talents your missing out on the prime rotation of the spec. which are mongoose bite spam and flanking striek spam. i have done simulators on mr robot and personal testing. when using snake hunter and animal instincts together you get a 30k increase to overall dps. This is not a proper guide and should be reupdated to give survival hunters out there a better chance at understanding the spec.

[Azortharion 60]

7 hours ago, Guest ddog880 said:

The talents needed are all wrong on this website... im a survival hunter and if you use those talents your missing out on the prime rotation of the spec. which are mongoose bite spam and flanking striek spam. i have done simulators on mr robot and personal testing. when using snake hunter and animal instincts together you get a 30k increase to overall dps. This is not a proper guide and should be reupdated to give survival hunters out there a better chance at understanding the spec.

Nothing about this is empirical in any sort of way, and anecdotal experience and words are not going to change it. You're going to have to offer something more than this (and personal testing is not actually useful DPS testing).

[Valks 2,375]

8 hours ago, Guest ddog880 said:

i have done simulators on mr robot and personal testing. 

Just dropping by to also add to what Azor has said above. I understand that you may have had a different experience when doing your personal testing, but this is most likely due to human error. 

When pointing out errors in the guide, you need to make sure that you have some form of evidence that removes any impact that your own skill might have. I'm not saying you are a bad player, but it's unlikely that you can perform as well as the API used to write the guides.

SimCraft is by no means perfect, it does have some flaws, but I would recommend using it to test your findings, then letting us know here what you have found and why it contradicts the guide.

[durdyenglish 298]

Frankly, I find this entire guide dismissive of a very solid and well-performing spec. According to logs, it is one of the highest performing specs for mythic+ and easily outperforms marksmanship on almost all fights outside of the Emerald Nightmare. I think you really need to have this guide rewritten by someone who focuses on the spec, not just someone who hits the dummy and thinks they know.

My survival hunter is at 874 ilvl with a 35-rank weapon at 903 ilvl and I do extremely competitive damage in raids and mythic+ alike (especially the latter). Like all class/spec combos, there are certain fights where I struggle and others where I shine brighter, but overall I have had zero complaints about my output. Is it more engaging of a spec to play than the other two specs? Yea, but that is more of a fault of BM and MM than it is survival. If you are splitting hairs at cutting-edge endgame, then yes other melee specs are "better," but for the average player reading your guides, you are giving a very inaccurate view of the spec.

[Orthios 271]

20 minutes ago, durdyenglish said:

Frankly, I find this entire guide dismissive of a very solid and well-performing spec. According to logs, it is one of the highest performing specs for mythic+ and easily outperforms marksmanship on almost all fights outside of the Emerald Nightmare. I think you really need to have this guide rewritten by someone who focuses on the spec, not just someone who hits the dummy and thinks they know.

My survival hunter is at 874 ilvl with a 35-rank weapon at 903 ilvl and I do extremely competitive damage in raids and mythic+ alike (especially the latter). Like all class/spec combos, there are certain fights where I struggle and others where I shine brighter, but overall I have had zero complaints about my output. Is it more engaging of a spec to play than the other two specs? Yea, but that is more of a fault of BM and MM than it is survival. If you are splitting hairs at cutting-edge endgame, then yes other melee specs are "better," but for the average player reading your guides, you are giving a very inaccurate view of the spec.

Mythic Emerald Nightmare Overall:

Mythic ToV Overall:

Heroic ToV:

Mythic + 10:

 

No, Survival is not better than Marksmanship or Beast Mastery.  

[durdyenglish 298]

On 12/29/2016 at 10:33 AM, Orthios said:

Mythic Emerald Nightmare Overall:

Mythic ToV Overall:

Heroic ToV:

Mythic + 10:

 

No, Survival is not better than Marksmanship or Beast Mastery.  

I still feel like this data is off as no one is investing serious time in the spec to level the artifact and gear it properly. 

[Orthios 271]

39 minutes ago, durdyenglish said:

I still feel like this data is off as no one is investing serious time in the spec to level the artifact and gear it properly. 

You think people doing Mythic Trial of Valor aren't serious about what they're doing?  Most of the logs for M ToV for SV hunters have 40+ points in the weapon, 2x legendaries (most of which were either SV specific or generic/cross-class/spec) and 885+ ilvl.  There's a reason there's so few Survival Hunters compared to Beast Mastery and Marksmanship, it just isn't viable compared to them or compared to other melee.  All four of the statistics I linked aren't exactly easy content (with the possible exception of Heroic ToV (Helya is still difficult, but not *that* hard) and M10 (different affixes are easier/harder)), and all of them definitely require some sort of investment into what you're doing.

[durdyenglish 298]

6 hours ago, Orthios said:

You think people doing Mythic Trial of Valor aren't serious about what they're doing?  Most of the logs for M ToV for SV hunters have 40+ points in the weapon, 2x legendaries (most of which were either SV specific or generic/cross-class/spec) and 885+ ilvl.  There's a reason there's so few Survival Hunters compared to Beast Mastery and Marksmanship, it just isn't viable compared to them or compared to other melee.  All four of the statistics I linked aren't exactly easy content (with the possible exception of Heroic ToV (Helya is still difficult, but not *that* hard) and M10 (different affixes are easier/harder)), and all of them definitely require some sort of investment into what you're doing.

If you look at my original post, it says "average player," i.e. people that don't run mythic raids or high level mythic keystone. If you look at the logs for survival hunters at lower difficulties, they remain viable in those situations. The guide however, is mostly dismissive of any potential they have. As someone that has had competitive success with the spec in heroic raids and 8+ mythic keystone, I just find it to be awfully jaded against the spec. Overall, this was my point.

 

[Valks 2,375]

15 hours ago, durdyenglish said:

As someone that has had competitive success with the spec in heroic raids and 8+ mythic keystone, I just find it to be awfully jaded against the spec.

What do you feel the guide should be changed to? Is the information inaccurate, and if so, in what way? I can't really give Azor the feedback of general feelings. I need specifics to provide him for re-testing and information. I assure you that he doesn't just hit a dummy and thinks he knows.

[durdyenglish 298]

1 hour ago, Blainie said:

What do you feel the guide should be changed to? Is the information inaccurate, and if so, in what way? I can't really give Azor the feedback of general feelings. I need specifics to provide him for re-testing and information. I assure you that he doesn't just hit a dummy and thinks he knows.

The guide has an incredibly strong bias towards evaluating mythic raiding potential. This would be fine, but I feel like guides in general should include a bit about how viable the spec is for average players. Everyone talks about how bottom-of-the-barrel survival is, but if you look at the logs of heroic raids around 875 ilvl (where a vast majority of raiders sit currently), you'll find that survival is much more middle of the pack, especially in ToV.

The guide also does nothing to mention their great PVP capabilities or their incredible solo/world quest strengths (as done on other guides). It simply is overly quick to dismiss the spec as "complex" with "little reward." It would appear that Icy-Veins, like the majority of trade chat champions, has no issue with completely writing off the spec as useless. You may not be willing to accept my personal experience as evidence, but I can assure you that it is not only viable, but competitive for many (not all) fights across both current raids and mythic keystone dungeons.

I realize that a vast majority of evaluation is done using simulation, but I would argue that survival hunter is not a spec that lends well to simulation. The complexities of survival hunter can be arduous at first, but when you realize how its design can benefit you beyond pure vacuum numbers, its power can be unleashed. There is no mention in your guide about how the spec has unbelievable mid-range capabilities that can often keep you striking a boss or mob while all other melee players are forced to retreat from mechanics (leading to more overall damage output). It doesn't bother to describe the immense damage utility that throwing axes can provide by being able to swap targets in and out of melee range for finishing damage on adds and players alike. It makes zero mention about the absolute control you have over your damage output versus the complete randomness of MM or the AOE hyperfocus of BM. Other classes/specs are rewarded in your guides for having a variety of tricks up their sleeves, but there is no attempt to highlight survival's unique capabilities outside of their abilities on paper.  You still applaud a spec like Combat Rogue despite its struggles both in logs and in simulations, as if to say: "Who cares, it's fun!"

Ultimately, I cannot help but assume that the author of the guide simply dislikes the spec completely and chooses not to remain objective when evaluating it. For one of the most engaging and fast specs in the game currently, I believe you've done it a great disservice for not even attempting to explore its strengths (outside a pure numbers stand-point) with more vigor. When I mention "hitting a dummy," I say it with the feeling that the author has not truly PLAYED the spec, delved into its complexities, and come out the other side a steely-eyed spear hunter. 

Edited December 31, 2016 by durdyenglish

[durdyenglish 298]

I mean, to further my point, you failed to properly update their weapon transmog or their weapon equipped in the guide. As of recently, polearms were missing from their transmog section. They were also listed as using bows for their weapon. Honestly, it's difficult to describe the level of apathy your authors have adhered to in regards to detailing survival hunters. It was immediately apparent that you simply didn't care about the spec and thus you dismissed it as useless and novelty.

Edited December 31, 2016 by durdyenglish

[Guest Luna]

This site is specifically catered towards high end raiding. If you want information that reflects solo content and transmogs then you can take what insights this guide offers with a grain of salt because it is simply not as impactful in that type of play. I love the survival hunter and have put hundreds of hours into it but there are some inadequacies that become apparent as you enter into higher end play. I would like there to be a dedicated Survival player at the helm but in the current raid environment that would mean a player doing less DPS to make a point. I am doing heroic content and mythic+ in the 7-9 range pulling 350k zw as a survival hunter and I have to work my ass off to do so. I see others facerolling the same or better results. I would love a few minor tweaks to the class to put us where other melee already are. Perhaps once 7.1.5 is completed and goes live there will be a reason for hard core raiders to give the clas a try but right now the loss of 20k dps might be the difference between pushing a boss phase at the right time and beating content before the guild with the guy playing the fotm class. If you are focused on that content it makes sense to push aside the SV spec until it performs at the level needed to fill the needs fo the raid. Look at the information here, then use your own resources and time to find out what works for you and what allows you to play the game the way you enjoy it.

[Guest Notmakinganaccount]

Why doesn't the guide say what pet to use?

[Orthios 271]

16 minutes ago, Guest Notmakinganaccount said:

Why doesn't the guide say what pet to use?

If I've said this once, I've said it a million times: There is NO best pet.  Use whatever you want.

[Valks 2,375]

On 12/31/2016 at 4:10 PM, durdyenglish said:

The guide also does nothing to mention their great PVP capabilities or their incredible solo/world quest strengths (as done on other guides). It simply is overly quick to dismiss the spec as "complex" with "little reward." It would appear that Icy-Veins, like the majority of trade chat champions, has no issue with completely writing off the spec as useless. You may not be willing to accept my personal experience as evidence, but I can assure you that it is not only viable, but competitive for many (not all) fights across both current raids and mythic keystone dungeons.

The guide was never intended to be used for PvP, so that point is unfortunately moot. There are specific PvP guides that are being released for specs, but there has never been any assumption that these guides would work for PvP. As for solo play, we recommend certain talents that work better than others, hence the General and Raid talent sets. The spec is definitely not written off as useless, Azor even specifics that the spec has high ST and burst damage, but it simply isn't worth playing in raids over the other specs.

On 12/31/2016 at 4:10 PM, durdyenglish said:

I realize that a vast majority of evaluation is done using simulation, but I would argue that survival hunter is not a spec that lends well to simulation.

A large portion of the evaluation is actually done by comparing the strengths and weaknesses of each spec for different fights and the different mechanics that a class might encounter in the current expansion. When weighed against other melee specs, Survival loses out, and when you compare a Melee spec to the other Hunter specs (MM specifically), you can probably imagine how that would end up.

On 12/31/2016 at 4:10 PM, durdyenglish said:

There is no mention in your guide about how the spec has unbelievable mid-range capabilities that can often keep you striking a boss or mob while all other melee players are forced to retreat from mechanics (leading to more overall damage output).

Surely if a mechanic is in the way, Warriors can Heroic Leap/Charge, Rogues can Grappling Hook/Shadowstep/Cloak, Monks can FSK/Karma/Roll, Ferals can extend their Melee range/Dash/Leap.. As you can see, the list is pretty extensive. Survival is 100% not exclusive at all in their ability to gap close or do damage without having to retreat from mechanics. There is also a huge amount that most other melee specs can do while forced to retreat or in periods of downtime, especially when you look at Rogues/Ferals/Monks. Need to retreat and can't touch the boss as Feral? Hard-cast healing touch, moonfire, Savage Roar etc.

I think you are severely underestimating the abilities of the other melee classes, since nearly everything SV can do, they can too in some form.

On 12/31/2016 at 4:10 PM, durdyenglish said:

It makes zero mention about the absolute control you have over your damage output versus the complete randomness of MM or the AOE hyperfocus of BM.

Are you saying that Hunter's Mark RNG makes MM a worse spec than Survival? If so, I think you really need to play some more MM.

On 12/31/2016 at 4:10 PM, durdyenglish said:

Ultimately, I cannot help but assume that the author of the guide simply dislikes the spec completely and chooses not to remain objective when evaluating it. For one of the most engaging and fast specs in the game currently, I believe you've done it a great disservice for not even attempting to explore its strengths (outside a pure numbers stand-point) with more vigor. When I mention "hitting a dummy," I say it with the feeling that the author has not truly PLAYED the spec, delved into its complexities, and come out the other side a steely-eyed spear hunter. 

Funnily enough, from speaking with him, Azor loved playing Survival on the beta (where intensive raid progression was not a huge factor) because it was an incredibly fun experience for him. The spec was very widely known as a hugely fun spec to play, and I'm sure if it was performing better, many more people would play it simply because it is more fun. Unfortunately, it's not. There is no personal vendetta towards the spec from Azor, honestly. 

You're pointing towards his subjective evaluation, but you're kind of opening up your own bias here. You seem to be on a warpath in an attempt to prove that SV is good, but you're not willing to accept facts that disprove it. You are basically saying, ONLY Survival can do X, yet every melee can. Numbers don't matter, but that's because Survival is doing less damage than other Hunter specs, right? If it was top on damage, would you still say numbers don't matter?

Anyway, thanks for your comment! I would also strongly recommend reading Luna's points above.

[Guest Holz]

13 hours ago, Guest Notmakinganaccount said:

Why doesn't the guide say what pet to use?

 

13 hours ago, Orthios said:

If I've said this once, I've said it a million times: There is NO best pet.  Use whatever you want.

There is a difference in pets, and the guide does mention it. In the talent section, the guide specifies using Carrion Birds, Riverbeasts, or Scorpids to take advantage of the higher Mongoose Bite proc chance that their abilities provide. 

[Valks 2,375]

On 1/3/2017 at 3:19 PM, Guest Holz said:

There is a difference in pets, and the guide does mention it. In the talent section, the guide specifies using Carrion Birds, Riverbeasts, or Scorpids to take advantage of the higher Mongoose Bite proc chance that their abilities provide. 

Thanks for helping to clarify and highlight that section :)

[Valks 2,375]

The guides are currently being updated for 7.1.5! I just wanted to leave a few notes for all of our users that might be getting ready to leave a comment:

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As always, we want to thank you all for being patient while we get things updated and I'm always available to help you all if you need it :)

[Guest Superdemo]

In the Tier 6 its recommened the use of Serpent Sting, however, the explanation has not been updated yet, still says why Dragonsfire Granade is better.