Arcane Mage 7.3

[Tigersharrk 4]

6 hours ago, Blainie said:

which spec performs the best.

Is the reason there is a huge problem here instead of the previous...

6 hours ago, Blainie said:

The guides on the site are here to ensure players are aware of exactly how to maximise their DPS

Which is not how its coming across at all. The subtext is saying IF you want to play Arcane here is what we found but you should roll fire like the rest of us. Instead of having someone dedicated to the spec, playing it no matter what is "best" , like NotConvinced and then passing said wisdom to other dedicated players on how to be the best overall, regardless of the majority who jump on the band wagon of Fire is better for reasons... 

Obviously Twistedmind,NotConvinced,Arcane Fluffy and the "vocal minority" dedicated to the spec have found a way or ways, not covered in the guide, to beat fire which does not make it top spec...maybe easiest to get numbers but not top. All i'm asking is that instead of just disputing Arcane's potential and their findings on how to top logs over fire you could reach out to them and say hey your doing something I could not figure out mind giving some pointers to improve our guide and make it better for those who don't want to roll Fire but be just as good.

[Guest straylight]

Does anyone have any answers to my specific questions about the rotation on page 3?

[Valks 2,375]

19 hours ago, Tigersharrk said:

Is the reason there is a huge problem here instead of the previous...

Which is not how its coming across at all. The subtext is saying IF you want to play Arcane here is what we found but you should roll fire like the rest of us. Instead of having someone dedicated to the spec, playing it no matter what is "best" , like NotConvinced and then passing said wisdom to other dedicated players on how to be the best overall, regardless of the majority who jump on the band wagon of Fire is better for reasons... 

Obviously Twistedmind,NotConvinced,Arcane Fluffy and the "vocal minority" dedicated to the spec have found a way or ways, not covered in the guide, to beat fire which does not make it top spec...maybe easiest to get numbers but not top. All i'm asking is that instead of just disputing Arcane's potential and their findings on how to top logs over fire you could reach out to them and say hey your doing something I could not figure out mind giving some pointers to improve our guide and make it better for those who don't want to roll Fire but be just as good.

You are still pushing this idea that Arcane is just as good as Fire when they play it, yet there is no definitive proof of it being so. Just because someone says, "I always beat Fire mages", doesn't mean that Arcane is better than Fire. 

As I said previously, I could play a Shadow Priest (lowest simming) and come top in a dungeon. Does that mean Shadow is just as good as Arms Warrior? Definitely not, someone like Wordup would absolutely destroy my SPriest in damage. I am 100% sure that I could go into a dungeon and play Arcane while my friend plays Fire and top the damage meters. Does that make Arcane better than Fire? No. It just makes me a better player than the other person or better geared.

If there is definitive proof of what they are suggesting, then I am 100% sure that Furty is more than happy to read through what is shown. Simply telling us that they do good damage in a dungeon means nothing.

Nobody is saying that it makes sense for Mastery to be bottom given the effect. Mastery SHOULD have been the best stat for Arcane Mages, given the effect of it. Legion changed A LOT of things, most notably the fact that Versatility is now actually VERY good for a lot of classes. Arcane Mage is one of those classes. Mathematically, Versatility is the best.

Until some actual proof is offered up that can genuinely show that Mastery outperforms Versatility in a gameplay scenario, nothing in this guide will change.

Here is a sim from Frosted, a very well respected Mage theorycrafter:

I can't really put it much better than he did.

Quote

It's just not very good it seems

 

[Guest Thulsa]

On 13.9.2016 at 3:09 PM, Guest Twistedmind said:

Hey, a couple of things to note after reading through this.

Stats at 110:

• 1% Crit = 350 Crit Rating
• 1% Haste = 325 Haste Rating
• 1% Versatility (Damage Portion) = 400 Versatility Rating
• 1% Mastery (Arcane Charge Damage) = 700 Mastery Rating

I have 11081 Mastery Rating = 31,66% = 350 Rating/1%

Am i crazy or how did you get those numbers ? Even worse is, that there are 5 different stat priorities on 5 different sites i visited. I stick with Mastery>Crit>Versatility>Haste for now, cause I'm doing quite well so far.

[Guest Sacuri]

Im not sure but if i Take a look at the BIs list and see no Item with versatility .. im confused stat prio is  int - ver-crit  why there is no item with it ? can someone explain me that pls :)

[Guest term]

Completely anecdotal, but I have been having the same experience as others. By stacking mastery I am consistently high on damage and I keep thinking these guides all have to be missing something. Even in PvP I pull higher numbers on Arcane than Fire. Both my artifacts are leveled the same. I swap out my mastery gear when switching to Fire but they are within 3 ilvls of each other. I would have sworn the opposite would be true because Fire is a lot more mobile in PvP for me. Not sure what else to say but I think you guys are missing something...

 

Wish I could add something more substantial. Actually, scratch that. Keep the info thats out there. I am enjoying being one of the few mages that are not Fire and blowing away peoples expectations.

[Valks 2,375]

22 hours ago, Guest Sacuri said:

Im not sure but if i Take a look at the BIs list and see no Item with versatility .. im confused stat prio is  int - ver-crit  why there is no item with it ? can someone explain me that pls :)

Hey there! This is because there is very little, if any, versatility gear to be found in Emerald Nightmare. The BiS list is intended to be the best gear you can find in the raid instance, but in reality, you can probably find better gear from Mythic+ in the future to meet your stat requirements.

[Valks 2,375]

34 minutes ago, Guest term said:

Completely anecdotal, but I have been having the same experience as others. By stacking mastery I am consistently high on damage and I keep thinking these guides all have to be missing something. Even in PvP I pull higher numbers on Arcane than Fire. Both my artifacts are leveled the same. I swap out my mastery gear when switching to Fire but they are within 3 ilvls of each other. I would have sworn the opposite would be true because Fire is a lot more mobile in PvP for me. Not sure what else to say but I think you guys are missing something...

Wish I could add something more substantial. Actually, scratch that. Keep the info thats out there. I am enjoying being one of the few mages that are not Fire and blowing away peoples expectations.

Could you perhaps provide a log of yourself playing the two specs, if you do have the gear for it? As I said before, I'm 100% not trying to just be the bad guy and shut people down. I just want to make sure that we can see something from the players that are claiming the performance differences. 

Thanks in advance.

[Brutalis 165]

15 hours ago, Guest term said:

Completely anecdotal, but I have been having the same experience as others. By stacking mastery I am consistently high on damage and I keep thinking these guides all have to be missing something. Even in PvP I pull higher numbers on Arcane than Fire. Both my artifacts are leveled the same. I swap out my mastery gear when switching to Fire but they are within 3 ilvls of each other. I would have sworn the opposite would be true because Fire is a lot more mobile in PvP for me. Not sure what else to say but I think you guys are missing something...

 

Wish I could add something more substantial. Actually, scratch that. Keep the info thats out there. I am enjoying being one of the few mages that are not Fire and blowing away peoples expectations.

I would also like to point out that PvP and PvE are completely different beasts, and a spec good at PvE might not be good in PvP and vis vera. Like in 6.2 where Arcane was dominating in PvE but both Fire and Frost were better in arenas and BGs, or how Sub Rogue was the best Rogue spec in HFC but in 3v3 Combat was prefered due to the burst and lockdown it provided in arenas.

Getting good numbers in PvP doesn't matter to the discussion of the fact that every sim, theorycraft and log is saying Fire does more DPS than Arcane on dummies and dungeons.

Edited September 19, 2016 by Brutalis

[Valks 2,375]

49 minutes ago, Brutalis said:

Getting good numbers in PvP doesn't matter to the discussion of the fact that every sim, theorycraft and log is saying Fire does more DPS than Arcane on dummies and dungeons.

Basically this. I'd be happy to review something that is presented to me that states otherwise, but it is yet to happen.

[Tigersharrk 4]

For the "Vocal Minority" who are still lost a PvE vid done by a true Arcane Mage, Arcane Fluffy enjoy!!!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WLtLPkU4BFU

Default stat priorities have changed on AMR to Int>Crit>MASTERY>Versa>Haste which is whats covered in his video but Fluffy also has a Mastery build (Int>Mastery>Crit=>Versa>Haste) that he will update his followers on later. 

Enjoy and happy raiding!

[Valks 2,375]

5 hours ago, Tigersharrk said:

For the "Vocal Minority" who are still lost a PvE vid done by a true Arcane Mage, Arcane Fluffy enjoy!!!

Just watched the video and was wondering if you could point me to the part where he explains the reasoning and proof behind his stat priority? 

A time in the video would be great. I look forward to watching that part of the video.

5 hours ago, Tigersharrk said:

Default stat priorities have changed on AMR to Int>Crit>MASTERY>Versa>Haste 

What is the reasoning behind this?

[Fluffeh 2]

31 minutes ago, Blainie said:

Just watched the video and was wondering if you could point me to the part where he explains the reasoning and proof behind his stat priority? 

A time in the video would be great. I look forward to watching that part of the video.

What is the reasoning behind this?

 

 

 

I'm using the crit build of Int>Crit>Mastery>Vers>Haste because of preference, ingame testing, and common sense. For preference, I prefer the more burst centered playstyle, as the mastery build becomes more worthwhile (better stat distribution on gear) I may switch over to it, but both are performing equally if the crit doing better. 

On the stat prio: Crit is highest because the raw damage output it gives, primarily increasing the damage of arcane missles, tempest, and mark of aluneth.

Mastery is second highest. After further testing, it was shown to outperform versatility because of the extra sustain it gives, which the build lacks stacking raw damage.

Versatility is the third highest, and second most damage generating stat. The stat distribution on gear doesn't give the luxury of being able to stack it optimally.

Haste is last, because quickening gives all the haste you need. :) 

 

I don't have simulation links ( I notice you lads tend to over rely on them). I'm a bit old school and rely on ingame testing with the gear I currently have/what I will have. 

 

Sorry if english is bad! :D

Edited September 20, 2016 by Fluffeh

[Valks 2,375]

1 hour ago, Fluffeh said:

I'm using the crit build of Int>Crit>Mastery>Vers>Haste because of preference, ingame testing, and common sense. For preference, I prefer the more burst centered playstyle, as the mastery build becomes more worthwhile (better stat distribution on gear) I may switch over to it, but both are performing equally if the crit doing better. 

I see. 

1 hour ago, Fluffeh said:

I don't have simulation links ( I notice you lads tend to over rely on them). I'm a bit old school and rely on ingame testing with the gear I currently have/what I will have. 

This is generally because they eliminate human error. They make up for the fact that an individual might be better at A than B.

In all honesty, I have now reached a point where the minority can fight their corner. It pains me to say it, but there is no point in me replying anymore. The main source of theorycrafting information that 99.9% of the WoW community accepts (sims) is suddenly being thrown out the window because this minority doesn't like what it says.

Your DPS will barely suffer if you take this build, you will do slightly less than with ours and that's it. 

Once again, from Frosted. The stat weights are so similar that, in all honesty, if you want to choose a different gearing strategy, whatever. Do it. The simple truth is Fire > Arcane. That isn't changing.

You could play Arcane as Haste > Vers > Crit > Mastery and it literally wouldn't even matter, because Fire will still win. The weights are basically the same, with a 0.07 difference between the two highest and lowest.

Gear as you wish. When the simulations and testing completing by Furty reflect an increase in damage, the guide will be updated and changed. Until then, it will not be changed without mathematical PROOF of it needing to be done so.

Thanks for your video and good luck with playing Arcane. I hope I do not come off as rude, but I'm sure you can see how frustrating it is to just have people say "sims? nah, those only work for every other class in the game, but not us!".

Good day and thanks for your contribution to the site.

[Guest straylight]

I'm sorry to have to come back to this again, but can someone please offer some answers to the questions about the Arcane rotation? Arguing which spec is best can be interesting, but some people (or at least just myself) just wanna play what they enjoy and come to icy-veins for some help with that. Please don't let the spec discussion overshadow more practical things.

Here are the main two questions I asked on page 3 of this thread. For a broader context and other minor questions, see that comment on page 3.

1) Down to what percent of mana am I expected to go to during a Burn phase in Arcane?

2) Do I only cast Blast and Missles during Burn? So delay Supernova until after the end?

[Fluffeh 2]

5 hours ago, Blainie said:

I see. 

This is generally because they eliminate human error. They make up for the fact that an individual might be better at A than B.

In all honesty, I have now reached a point where the minority can fight their corner. It pains me to say it, but there is no point in me replying anymore. The main source of theorycrafting information that 99.9% of the WoW community accepts (sims) is suddenly being thrown out the window because this minority doesn't like what it says.

Your DPS will barely suffer if you take this build, you will do slightly less than with ours and that's it. 

Once again, from Frosted. The stat weights are so similar that, in all honesty, if you want to choose a different gearing strategy, whatever. Do it. The simple truth is Fire > Arcane. That isn't changing.

You could play Arcane as Haste > Vers > Crit > Mastery and it literally wouldn't even matter, because Fire will still win. The weights are basically the same, with a 0.07 difference between the two highest and lowest.

Gear as you wish. When the simulations and testing completing by Furty reflect an increase in damage, the guide will be updated and changed. Until then, it will not be changed without mathematical PROOF of it needing to be done so.

Thanks for your video and good luck with playing Arcane. I hope I do not come off as rude, but I'm sure you can see how frustrating it is to just have people say "sims? nah, those only work for every other class in the game, but not us!".

Good day and thanks for your contribution to the site.

 

 

 

 

 

3

Meh. I've got nothing better to do. While tinkering with gear for more stat diversity I discovered that I may have perhaps undervalued versatility in my initial observations.

 

Your spec in AMR simulator: http://www.askmrrobot.com/wow/simulator/report/f9991299a1aa43309a0e1c04f80eb0b8

http://imgur.com/X1TLZBX

 

My Spec in simulator: http://www.askmrrobot.com/wow/simulator/report/ebf4e7dd1e80466698bd06cf6352604f

http://imgur.com/vVsc471

Edited September 20, 2016 by Fluffeh

[Valks 2,375]

49 minutes ago, Guest straylight said:

I'm sorry to have to come back to this again, but can someone please offer some answers to the questions about the Arcane rotation? Arguing which spec is best can be interesting, but some people (or at least just myself) just wanna play what they enjoy and come to icy-veins for some help with that. Please don't let the spec discussion overshadow more practical things.

Sorry! I didn't realise that I had missed your comment, really sorry about that.

49 minutes ago, Guest straylight said:

1) Down to what percent of mana am I expected to go to during a Burn phase in Arcane?

Taking this from the guide:

Quote

Once  Arcane Power ends, and you no longer have the Mana to cast  Arcane Barrage, you should activate  Evocation and fully channel it to restore your Mana to 100%. After this is done, the conserve phase resumes. 

So essentially until you can no longer cast Arcane Barrage due to mana issues.

50 minutes ago, Guest straylight said:

2) Do I only cast Blast and Missles during Burn? So delay Supernova until after the end?

Yes.

[Valks 2,375]

1 minute ago, Fluffeh said:

Meh. I've got nothing better to do. While tinkering with gear for more stat diversity I discovered that I may have perhaps undervalued versatility in my initial observations.

Your spec in AMR simulator: http://www.askmrrobot.com/wow/simulator/report/f9991299a1aa43309a0e1c04f80eb0b8

http://imgur.com/X1TLZBX

My Spec in simulator: http://www.askmrrobot.com/wow/simulator/report/ebf4e7dd1e80466698bd06cf6352604f

http://imgur.com/X1TLZBX

Think you've linked the same image twice, so can't see what the difference is!

[Fluffeh 2]

Just now, Blainie said:

Think you've linked the same image twice, so can't see what the difference is!

Fixed

Edited September 20, 2016 by Fluffeh

[Valks 2,375]

2 minutes ago, Fluffeh said:

Fixed

So, what conclusions would you draw from these 2 sims? It's probably better to let you do it for the sake of the people reading.

[Fluffeh 2]

5 minutes ago, Blainie said:

So, what conclusions would you draw from these 2 sims? It's probably better to let you do it for the sake of the people reading.

 

 

That stat differences are almost negligible, but I would still value mastery higher than is listed in the guide. And yes, Fire is still above arcane. This is just for the sake of stat discussion. :)

 

EDIT: Also, after further examination, haste may be located higher in the guides priority listing because of the effect on the trinkets. I'm curious how this will play out with different trinkets able to be gotten in EN and TNH

Edited September 20, 2016 by Fluffeh

[Justez 0]

So I was looking at this guide and there is a mistake on how he read these pants works Mystic Kilt of the Rune Master . It makes it so barrage gets 4 percent of your max mana per arcane stack, not your arcane blast. that would be broken. So I don't think mastery is as bad as you think it is. Especially since this doesn't devalue it at all!

Edited September 20, 2016 by Justez
typo

[Furty 51]

1 minute ago, Justez said:

So I was looking at this guide and there is a mistake on how he read this ring works Mystic Kilt of the Rune Master . It makes it so barrage gets 4 percent of your max mana per arcane stack, not your arcane blast. that would be broken. So I don't think mastery is as bad as you think it is. Especially since this doesn't devalue it at all!

It's actually a pair of legs. Just a typo on the AB, it's evaluated correctly.

[Guest straylight]

5 hours ago, Blainie said:

Taking this from the guide:

So essentially until you can no longer cast Arcane Barrage due to mana issues.

So I do NOT drop charges with Barrage at the end of Arcane Power, I just keep going on until I have no more mana and only THEN drop charges? In theory, if RNG is my side I can hover at very little mana but keep casting free arcane missiles as they proc, maybe even a free blast with the legendary bracers every now and then, and then keep dragging on like this until arcane power comes off cd again?

[Valks 2,375]

On 9/20/2016 at 5:23 PM, Guest straylight said:

So I do NOT drop charges with Barrage at the end of Arcane Power, I just keep going on until I have no more mana and only THEN drop charges? In theory, if RNG is my side I can hover at very little mana but keep casting free arcane missiles as they proc, maybe even a free blast with the legendary bracers every now and then, and then keep dragging on like this until arcane power comes off cd again?

Pretty much!