Assassination Rogue 7.3

[Falx 1]

Hey Carrn,

I would love to know how to use properly vanish/vendetta/exsanguinate. Vendetta has double CD than Exsanguinate so u can use vendetta each 2 exsanguinate ok, but what about vanish? 

At the end of the day what really gives us the huge burst is the use of those 3 skills together no? :)

[Carrn 284]

1 hour ago, Falx said:

Hey Carrn,

I would love to know how to use properly vanish/vendetta/exsanguinate. Vendetta has double CD than Exsanguinate so u can use vendetta each 2 exsanguinate ok, but what about vanish? 

At the end of the day what really gives us the huge burst is the use of those 3 skills together no? :)

Yeah. Vanish and Vendetta should be used together for the time being, since they share a 2 minute cooldown

Once you unlock the trait to reduce the cd on Vendetta, you'll be able to use it with every second use of Exanguinate, and Vanish can be used when possible. 

At the start of a fight you can get all 3 together, as well as 6 minutes in if the fight goes that long and you're using things as soon as they come up.

Always keep in mind though, that if you need to save cooldowns for a specific add on an encounter or a specific phase on a boss fight that you should plan your cooldown use around that. Always think about what your job is in the fight, and figure out what works best for you in that regard. This guide is just that - a guideline. It helps to give you an idea and instruction how to play, but it can't account for every possible situation

[Uni 0]

So I just spent a bunch of time messing around with different talents and hitting the raider's dummy, and I'm fairly sure this guide is outdated. It might've been made before the nerf to Exsanguinate that made it from 400% faster to 100%, and the buff to Agonizing poison.

 

At ilvl 842 with 20 points in my artifact (using the recommended artifact build) I was doing ~210K with Hemo+Exsang build. Tried switching to Master poisoner + Agonizing Poison and immediately jumped to ~230K.

Dps'd for about 6-7 min multiple times on each build, came back with same results. I encourage other people to try it out themselves and post results because I'm interested.

[Valks 2,375]

47 minutes ago, Uni said:

So I just spent a bunch of time messing around with different talents and hitting the raider's dummy, and I'm fairly sure this guide is outdated. It might've been made before the nerf to Exsanguinate that made it from 400% faster to 100%, and the buff to Agonizing poison.

 

At ilvl 842 with 20 points in my artifact (using the recommended artifact build) I was doing ~210K with Hemo+Exsang build. Tried switching to Master poisoner + Agonizing Poison and immediately jumped to ~230K.

Dps'd for about 6-7 min multiple times on each build, came back with same results. I encourage other people to try it out themselves and post results because I'm interested.

An interesting suggestion - I'm not a Rogue player, but I will see if we can have a further review of the information to ensure that it is up-to-date. Everything is fairly busy currently due to the release of raid guides, but we'll do our best!

[Carrn 284]

1 hour ago, Uni said:

So I just spent a bunch of time messing around with different talents and hitting the raider's dummy, and I'm fairly sure this guide is outdated. It might've been made before the nerf to Exsanguinate that made it from 400% faster to 100%, and the buff to Agonizing poison.

 

At ilvl 842 with 20 points in my artifact (using the recommended artifact build) I was doing ~210K with Hemo+Exsang build. Tried switching to Master poisoner + Agonizing Poison and immediately jumped to ~230K.

Dps'd for about 6-7 min multiple times on each build, came back with same results. I encourage other people to try it out themselves and post results because I'm interested.

 

24 minutes ago, Blainie said:

An interesting suggestion - I'm not a Rogue player, but I will see if we can have a further review of the information to ensure that it is up-to-date. Everything is fairly busy currently due to the release of raid guides, but we'll do our best!

The two builds are close. There was a post on MMO-Champ last week which said that Agonizing was a viable alternative, but I think it has more to do with how much Mastery you have; Mastery heavy gear seems to favour Agonizing Poison, while Vers heavy gear seems to favour Exsanguinate. 

I don't have my computer up and running right now (2 days until my SSD gets in, but who's counting)  to test it myself right now so I'm pretty reliant on the Sims other people are running and results that they're getting.

This will be one of the first things I look in to once I do have a working computer again though, so hopefully I'll have some meaningful results soon.

[Uni 0]

Quote

The two builds are close. There was a post on MMO-Champ last week which said that Agonizing was a viable alternative, but I think it has more to do with how much Mastery you have; Mastery heavy gear seems to favour Agonizing Poison, while Vers heavy gear seems to favour Exsanguinate. 

Sitting at 6.8K mastery and only 2K vers. atm, so that definitely sounds accurate. Thanks for reply.

Edited September 19, 2016 by Uni

[Carrn 284]

3 minutes ago, Uni said:

Sitting at 6.8K mastery and only 2K vers. atm, so that definitely sounds accurate. Thanks for reply.

Yeah it doesn't surprise me that a difference that dramatic is showing that Agonizing is better for you.

If your stats balance out a little more you should revisit a dummy and see how well Exsanguinate performs for you

[Falx 1]

Does the bleed caused from the T19 2 pieces set bonus work with Venomous Wounds? cos if it does it'd be a game changing I guess.

The energy regeneration would get crazy with 13 more energy regained.

[Carrn 284]

44 minutes ago, Falx said:

Does the bleed caused from the T19 2 pieces set bonus work with Venomous Wounds? cos if it does it'd be a game changing I guess.

The energy regeneration would get crazy with 13 more energy regained.

I can't confirm this since I don't have the 2 piece, but I don't see a reason why it wouldn't

That said, Energy (or a lack thereof) isn't really central to Assassination's playstyle. Because so much of the damage comes from Rupture and Garrote, what you spam in between the refreshes (such as Envenom) doesn't matter all that much

[Falx 1]

5 hours ago, Carrn said:

I can't confirm this since I don't have the 2 piece, but I don't see a reason why it wouldn't

That said, Energy (or a lack thereof) isn't really central to Assassination's playstyle. Because so much of the damage comes from Rupture and Garrote, what you spam in between the refreshes (such as Envenom) doesn't matter all that much

That's very true but consider that, for example, the T19 4 pieces set bonus increases the envenom dmg by 8% per bleed applied on the target (24% considering rupture, garrote and the new bleed). I think it's gonna make a huge difference (more envenoms that make more dmg).

[Carrn 284]

Just now, Falx said:

That's very true but consider that, for example, the T19 4 pieces set bonus increases the envenom dmg by 8% per bleed applied on the target (24% considering rupture, garrote and the new bleed). I think it's gonna make a huge difference (more envenoms that make more dmg).

Not really, no. Rupture is approximately 40% of Sin's damage, while Envenom sits around 8%

I'm sure the value of Envenom will go up, I just doubt it will go up by enough to make up that crazy of a gap

[Falx 1]

On 9/20/2016 at 8:14 PM, Carrn said:

Not really, no. Rupture is approximately 40% of Sin's damage, while Envenom sits around 8%

I'm sure the value of Envenom will go up, I just doubt it will go up by enough to make up that crazy of a gap

Well it's not just the envenom, more energy means also more mutilates.

Sims show that one of the main problems with assa rogues is the 40% waiting time compared, for example, to the 4% from outlaw. If u could reduce that 40% to 10%, I am sure, the damage increase would be very big.

Edited September 22, 2016 by Falx

[Carrn 284]

25 minutes ago, Falx said:

Well it's not just the envenom, more energy means also more mutilates.

Sims show that one of the main problems with assa rogues is the 40% waiting time compared, for example, to the 4% from outlaw. If u could reduce that 40% to 10%, I am sure, the damage increase would be very big.

Obviously it's a dps gain, I'm just saying that it won't make that huge a difference

That waiting time is due almost entirely to the high energy cost of Mutilate. It costs 55 Energy, which means that your energy is effectively depleted if you use 2 in a row, even if you were full before.

Consider a situation like this:

• You have 6CP and 40 Energy (not unlikely, if you just cast Mut)
• Rupture has 12 seconds left, so you can't refresh it without losing damage

You gain a large amount of damage by not casting Envenom for a few seconds until you can refresh Rupture perfectly - you won't cap on energy, so you stand there and wait.

That's just the playstyle. Because of the high Energy cost on Mut and the frankly absurd damage from Rupture, you don't spend a lot of time spamming buttons. You watch your bleeds, you avoid capping on Energy, you plan when and where you can use Exsang and how you can line your bleeds all up perfectly by refreshing them right beforehand, etc

Adding a little more damage to a skill that doesn't do much in the first place is pretty underwhelming, although it will help a little. If Agonizing Poison ends up being the stronger spec, the set bonuses will be nicer, but I think Rupture is just too strong at the moment

[Falx 1]

1 hour ago, Carrn said:

Obviously it's a dps gain, I'm just saying that it won't make that huge a difference

That waiting time is due almost entirely to the high energy cost of Mutilate. It costs 55 Energy, which means that your energy is effectively depleted if you use 2 in a row, even if you were full before.

Consider a situation like this:

• You have 6CP and 40 Energy (not unlikely, if you just cast Mut)
• Rupture has 12 seconds left, so you can't refresh it without losing damage

Adding a little more damage to a skill that doesn't do much in the first place is pretty underwhelming, although it will help a little. If Agonizing Poison ends up being the stronger spec, the set bonuses will be nicer, but I think Rupture is just too strong at the moment

It makes sense to wait for few seconds to reapply rupture only if you don't end up capping energy.

In your situation with a proper energy reg (hopefully good enough thanks to the t19 2piece-set bonus) you can cast an envenom and still have time for 2 more mutilate to regain 5-6 CPs before rupture expires.

I do agree about what you said about Agonizing Poison and frankly I do hope it'll happen even though I highly doubt it.

[Guest Needs Updated]

Needs updated

"Assassination is currently slightly weaker than Outlaw at single target damage. While it is still a strong spec for single target, there is little reason from an efficiency perspective to play this specialization outside of pure enjoyment, as it is outclassed in every respect by Outlaw."

http://imgur.com/PfD7btp

[Valks 2,375]

18 minutes ago, Guest Needs Updated said:

Needs updated

"Assassination is currently slightly weaker than Outlaw at single target damage. While it is still a strong spec for single target, there is little reason from an efficiency perspective to play this specialization outside of pure enjoyment, as it is outclassed in every respect by Outlaw."

http://imgur.com/PfD7btp

I don't see much point in posting the same thing twice normally as you already said this in the Outlaw guide, but it seems like this will come up often.

[Guest Needs Updated]

I dunno man, day one shows outlaw losing. It doesn't effect me much though I'm a silly sub rogue XD,

Sorry for posting to both threads.

[Valks 2,375]

Just now, Guest Needs Updated said:

I dunno man, day one shows outlaw losing. It doesn't effect me much though I'm a silly sub rogue XD,

Sorry for posting to both threads.

Outlaw is not losing. That graph you posted is skewed completely by the minute number of people playing Assassination. Look at how many Outlaw Rogues are in that top 10 for each boss...

[Carrn 284]

2 hours ago, Guest Needs Updated said:

I dunno man, day one shows outlaw losing. It doesn't effect me much though I'm a silly sub rogue XD,

Sorry for posting to both threads.

Yeah Outlaw isn't losing by any means.

The guide is correct; Outlaw performs better than both other specs right now, since on average it does about the same on Single Target and significantly higher on multiple ones. That said, 24 hours of results are hardly enough to actually base a solid conclusion on

I'm a Sub Rogue at heart too, don't you worry. Mained the spec for the last 11 years, not about to stop now haha. 

[Guest Needs Updated]

I'll trust you guys since you seem to be the pros, but man wouldn't it be funny if they did end up losing in the long run? Not saying it will but that would be way entertaining because either way my spec is gonna be behind.

[Guest IHavedream]

Guys. Hello there. Help me pls with one thing.

Should i wait for Blood of the Assassinated procs to overlap it with Exsang? As i see, i cant waste so much time  from the very begining of fight, but mb it is usefull to overlap both after ?? 

[Valks 2,375]

10 hours ago, Guest Needs Updated said:

I'll trust you guys since you seem to be the pros, but man wouldn't it be funny if they did end up losing in the long run? Not saying it will but that would be way entertaining because either way my spec is gonna be behind.

Not quite pro! We do lots of nerdy research though!

[Valks 2,375]

1 hour ago, Guest IHavedream said:

Guys. Hello there. Help me pls with one thing.

Should i wait for Blood of the Assassinated procs to overlap it with Exsang? As i see, i cant waste so much time  from the very begining of fight, but mb it is usefull to overlap both after ?? 

Not sure on this one unfortunately, going to tag @Carrn since he might be able to help more. 

[Carrn 284]

4 hours ago, Guest IHavedream said:

Guys. Hello there. Help me pls with one thing.

Should i wait for Blood of the Assassinated procs to overlap it with Exsang? As i see, i cant waste so much time  from the very begining of fight, but mb it is usefull to overlap both after ?? 

In short, no. 

If you're able to line it up, that's amazing, but using Exsang on a newly applied Rupture / Garrote combo is really the only thing you need to watch out for

[Falx 1]

Any thought about the upcoming changes?

Do you think Assa will become more viable?