Subtlety Rogue 7.3

[Damien 1,514]

This thread is for comments about our Subtlety Rogue guide for Legion.

[Guest Ryjhan]

Sub guide seems to be recommending some non-optimal talent choices, at least according to the most current simulationcraft results. Using subterfuge, premeditation, and master of shadows over nightstalker, alacrity, and death from above is going to get you a lot more shadowstrikes over the course of a raid encounter and result in more damage. 

[Furty 51]

32 minutes ago, Guest Ryjhan said:

Sub guide seems to be recommending some non-optimal talent choices, at least according to the most current simulationcraft results. Using subterfuge, premeditation, and master of shadows over nightstalker, alacrity, and death from above is going to get you a lot more shadowstrikes over the course of a raid encounter and result in more damage. 

Those talent choices are fine if you're new to the specialization since the Legion changes. Our listed talents will definitely provide more burst during ring and during procs, but make pooling and executing your burst a lot more important (which APLs always struggle to model, which is why forgiving choices are usually favored). When using Bleeding Hollow Toxin Vessel, those talents can actually be quite potent, but the pre-patch can usually be pretty volatile with respect to balance. Basically, since we (theorycrafters & the like) are all so focused on Legion, there might be some unexpected bumps in the road during 7.0.3 for every class.

[Neriliel 1]

Good job guys incredible guide as we are used to ! 

I'm a bit disappointed because I was expecting Sub to stay better than Assassination in term of single target DPS and I was attracted by Sub gameplay as well. 

[Furty 51]

5 hours ago, Neriliel said:

Good job guys incredible guide as we are used to ! 

I'm a bit disappointed because I was expecting Sub to stay better than Assassination in term of single target DPS and I was attracted by Sub gameplay as well. 

Don't worry dude, it will definitely take over later in Legion! Assassination doesn't scale very well since Mastery doesn't affect your Bleeds at all and Haste doesn't have much value to begin with. Subtlety on the other hand scales extraordinarily well and I would expect it to be dominant in Nighthold or the tier after!

[Guest Tomate]

Thanks for this guide.

I just wandering my self why : "  Gloomblade is actually a DPS loss if you can guarantee that the majority of your  Backstabs will come from behind the target."

Gloomblade is shadow damage so it ignore armor. I log on my beta account and can confirm that Gloomblade does ~25% more damage than backstab. I can understand it's not optimal but I really doubt it's a DPS loss.

[Furty 51]

59 minutes ago, Guest Tomate said:

Thanks for this guide.

I just wandering my self why : "  Gloomblade is actually a DPS loss if you can guarantee that the majority of your  Backstabs will come from behind the target."

Gloomblade is shadow damage so it ignore armor. I log on my beta account and can confirm that Gloomblade does ~25% more damage than backstab. I can understand it's not optimal but I really doubt it's a DPS loss.

It depends on the mob, as I had mixed results when doing practical testing. Definitely a significant downgrade from the other two talents in any case.

[Guest Zarayis]

Hey, I've been practicing this rotation for the past three hours on a target dummy, but I can only sustain 45-47K. (No food/flask/rune, Ilvl 730), Is that around where it should be?

[Furty 51]

29 minutes ago, Guest Zarayis said:

Hey, I've been practicing this rotation for the past three hours on a target dummy, but I can only sustain 45-47K. (No food/flask/rune, Ilvl 730), Is that around where it should be?

Subtlety is pretty dependent on your gear right now. If you have Bleeding Hollow Toxic Vessel your damage should be quite solid in a raid environment.

[Guest Luzzt]

Is really versatility in top stat? with so many finishers and the constant use of them, should mastery be giving more damage overall? 

or is it because with no alacrity the will be less finishers to take advantage of mastery? is focusing more on a constant base dagame than micro burst? i was just not specting versatility to top as a stat.

[Furty 51]

27 minutes ago, Guest Luzzt said:

Is really versatility in top stat? with so many finishers and the constant use of them, should mastery be giving more damage overall? 

or is it because with no alacrity the will be less finishers to take advantage of mastery? is focusing more on a constant base dagame than micro burst? i was just not specting versatility to top as a stat.

It's because of Bleeding Hollow Toxin Vessel.

[Guest Reerun]

Hi! Great guide! I did notice one teeny weeny little thing, not to nit pick or anything, but as far as your Tricks macro goes, I always used 

/cast [@Tank's Name] Tricks of the Trade

which does the same thing, you just don't switch targets. Might be a little easier for someone less experienced with macros as well. I will say I haven't raided since the beginning of Cata, but I imagine it would still work. Anyway, good work! The rogue community was very well blessed as far as theorycrafting, etc. back in the EJ days, and it's nice to see someone else grab the reigns and help people out.

[Valks 2,375]

3 minutes ago, Guest Reerun said:

Hi! Great guide! I did notice one teeny weeny little thing, not to nit pick or anything, but as far as your Tricks macro goes, I always used 

/cast [@Tank's Name] Tricks of the Trade

which does the same thing, you just don't switch targets. Might be a little easier for someone less experienced with macros as well. I will say I haven't raided since the beginning of Cata, but I imagine it would still work. Anyway, good work! The rogue community was very well blessed as far as theorycrafting, etc. back in the EJ days, and it's nice to see someone else grab the reigns and help people out.

Thanks for the suggestion about the macro! The current macro allows you to cast Tricks on whatever your mouse is currently hovering over, which means you can put it on any player you wish by just hovering over them in the raid frames or in-game. It's slightly more flexible than a direct target macro on a single player, especially if you have to swap between tanks often.

[Guest 8bitmadness]

I know that Alacrity tends to be the best choice since it improves combo point generation overall, but is there in your opinion any time where Enveloping Shadows will be useful?

[Carrn 284]

5 hours ago, Guest 8bitmadness said:

I know that Alacrity tends to be the best choice since it improves combo point generation overall, but is there in your opinion any time where Enveloping Shadows will be useful?

I'm not convinced that it will be, but maybe in later tiers as we move into Legion. We'll see as time goes on, these sorts of things are updated regularly

[Guest Zed]

The guide mentions to maintain Nightblade only on the primary target. Is it not worth it to apply it onto a second/third target if available/possible, similar to how assassination does with rupture?

[Guest Snowstone]

Hey.

Night elves used to have an advantage whit the old sub spec. We could use our racial shadowmeld for a free ambush that allowed us 10 more secs of find weakness every 2 mins.

This advantage isn't totally gone though. We can still use shadowmeld to cast shadowstrike whitout being into vanish or Shadow dance.

I guess it gives the race a little advantage over the other races but nothing big. Maybe it is worth to be pointed out into your guild?

And while i'm at it, thank you for this guide!

[Furty 51]

9 hours ago, Guest Zed said:

The guide mentions to maintain Nightblade only on the primary target. Is it not worth it to apply it onto a second/third target if available/possible, similar to how assassination does with rupture?

Nightblade has such a short duration that in *most* cases it is best to play to your strengths and focus on dealing as much damage as possible to the most important target. If a new target spawns, however, such as the Deathcaller on Archimonde, you switch and apply Nightblade ASAP.

[Guest Veinøm@Hyjal]

Hi,

i would like to use one key for bacsktab and shadowstrike, so I tried to play with this macro :

#showtooltip

/cast [stance:0] backstab

/cast [stance:1/2/3] shadowstrike

It doesn't work with shadowdance (stance:3 before Legion pre-patch) because it's not a stance anymore...any idea ?

 

Anyway, thanks for your very complete guide

[Carrn 284]

3 hours ago, Guest Veinøm@Hyjal said:

Hi,

i would like to use one key for bacsktab and shadowstrike, so I tried to play with this macro :

#showtooltip

/cast [stance:0] backstab

/cast [stance:1/2/3] shadowstrike

It doesn't work with shadowdance (stance:3 before Legion pre-patch) because it's not a stance anymore...any idea ?

 

Anyway, thanks for your very complete guide

I don't think it's possible anymore. You should try: /cast [mod:shift] Shadowstrike; Backstab

That will use the same button but you'll have to hit shift. Blizzard doesn't allow for scripting based off what buffs you have - if you would like to have an easier way of knowing when Shadow Dance is available and / or active, you can look at using an addon such as Weakauras which can help track things such as Shadow Dance, and help you know when to SS and when to BS

 

[Guest Bazdouf]

Hi, 

I was just wondering about a nightstalker/anticipation/enveloping shadows/DfA where you would be casting 2 eviscerate/dfa during shadow dance and though net you a max 30 s cd on shadow dance, and enveloping shadow might generate a bit less CP but it gives you one more finisher to reduce shadow dance cd. Would it be viable ? i don't have a lot of time to play right now, and it might get better when legion launch because of Bleeding Hollow Toxin Vessel.

Thanks !

[Furty 51]

2 hours ago, Guest Bazdouf said:

Hi, 

I was just wondering about a nightstalker/anticipation/enveloping shadows/DfA where you would be casting 2 eviscerate/dfa during shadow dance and though net you a max 30 s cd on shadow dance, and enveloping shadow might generate a bit less CP but it gives you one more finisher to reduce shadow dance cd. Would it be viable ? i don't have a lot of time to play right now, and it might get better when legion launch because of Bleeding Hollow Toxin Vessel.

Thanks !

Obviously you are free to choose whatever talents you want if you just want to mess around or try fun builds, but that will result in a pretty major DPS loss. 

[Bazdouf 0]

On 22/07/2016 at 10:21 PM, Furty said:

Obviously you are free to choose whatever talents you want if you just want to mess around or try fun builds, but that will result in a pretty major DPS loss. 

Even with an full artifact ? Or is enveloping shadows really that weak without a mastery scaling

Cause i like the anticipation/nightstalker combo, so maybe with master of shadows and alacrity/premeditation ?

[Furty 51]

Just now, Bazdouf said:

Even with an full artifact ? Or is enveloping shadows really that weak without a mastery scaling

Cause i like the anticipation/nightstalker combo, so maybe with master of shadows and alacrity/premeditation ?

Even at 110 it falls noticeably behind the other talent options.

[Bazdouf 0]

1 minute ago, Furty said:

Even at 110 it falls noticeably behind the other talent options.

okay, thanks for the quick response !