Subtlety Rogue 7.3

[Valks 2,375]

2 hours ago, Eudee said:

It says you want us to run Deeper Stratagem, but you also want us to be able to get at least 4 shadowstrikes in during a single shadow dance with subterfuge. Without vigor or alacrity, how do we manage that?

Unfortunately, I'm not well versed enough to give an answer on this one, but tagging @Carrn in the hopes that he can help!

[Carrn 284]

On 9/18/2016 at 7:05 PM, Smoker said:

It's work 100%, u can check :)

p.s. U didnt understand me, whats better: 3 sec attack or spend all energy -> stop attack and w8 vanish?

I probably wouldn't stop attacking. It's nice for phase changes and that sort of thing, or running over to an add and getting a Vanish for free, but it's really situational

[Carrn 284]

9 hours ago, Eudee said:

It says you want us to run Deeper Stratagem, but you also want us to be able to get at least 4 shadowstrikes in during a single shadow dance with subterfuge. Without vigor or alacrity, how do we manage that?

How much Energy are you entering Shadow Dance with?

It might be that you aren't starting with enough pooled, but it also might be that that section is written with a higher level of gear in mind, where we have a little more Haste by default.

[Guest Celiok]

Is it ok if I have like no haste for sub rogue?
I am at 2% atm,is it a dps increase if I trade haste for more mastery/vers?
Does the low energy regen result is a dps loss?

[Carrn 284]

6 hours ago, Guest Celiok said:

Is it ok if I have like no haste for sub rogue?
I am at 2% atm,is it a dps increase if I trade haste for more mastery/vers?
Does the low energy regen result is a dps loss?

It's pretty normal at this point. You should generally be using any item that has a higher item level, regardless of stats.

[Eudee 0]

I was testing it out and even if I danced with 100 energy there wasn't any way that I could squeeze out 4 shadowstrikes. I'm at 8.81% haste and was only able to get 3 out on a dummy when using dance and using no other abilities. With Vigor I could easily get 5 SS in.

Quick edit: When Symbols of Death are used when you first enter SD you have even less energy and only manage to squeeze out 2 SS unless under the effects of Goremaw's Bite, which only happens once a minute, in which case I can get three.
Also, when you have the Deeper Stratagem talent you have a 100% chance for Relentless strikes to refund 40 energy, then a 20% chance for another 40 energy sometimes resulting in a 45 net energy gain when you use a finisher, is this intended? 

Edit 2: Looked it up and it is intended, meaning you could squeeze out more shadowstrikes if RS procs twice, but is unlikely since it only has that 20% chance. I think this should be noted, though.

Edited September 21, 2016 by Eudee

[Carrn 284]

9 hours ago, Eudee said:

I was testing it out and even if I danced with 100 energy there wasn't any way that I could squeeze out 4 shadowstrikes. I'm at 8.81% haste and was only able to get 3 out on a dummy when using dance and using no other abilities. With Vigor I could easily get 5 SS in.

Quick edit: When Symbols of Death are used when you first enter SD you have even less energy and only manage to squeeze out 2 SS unless under the effects of Goremaw's Bite, which only happens once a minute, in which case I can get three.
Also, when you have the Deeper Stratagem talent you have a 100% chance for Relentless strikes to refund 40 energy, then a 20% chance for another 40 energy sometimes resulting in a 45 net energy gain when you use a finisher, is this intended? 

Edit 2: Looked it up and it is intended, meaning you could squeeze out more shadowstrikes if RS procs twice, but is unlikely since it only has that 20% chance. I think this should be noted, though.

Yeah I have a feeling that that section was written with a higher level of gear in mind.

So long as you're using SS until 5 or 6 cp, using Evis, then SS as many more times as possible you should be alright

[Valks 2,375]

Generic comment being mass posted over the comments threads guys.

We are aware of the changes and our writers are working hard to update the guides to suit what has changed. Currently, there is a lot of work still to be done and it's unlikely that every guide will be up-to-date immediately. Expect a flood of updates over the coming days that will answer all of your questions about what is now best after X change, in time for the reset next week.

Thanks for your understanding and patience.

[Guest Dachdegger]

On 21.9.2016 at 2:57 AM, Eudee said:

I was testing it out and even if I danced with 100 energy there wasn't any way that I could squeeze out 4 shadowstrikes. I'm at 8.81% haste and was only able to get 3 out on a dummy when using dance and using no other abilities. With Vigor I could easily get 5 SS in.

Quick edit: When Symbols of Death are used when you first enter SD you have even less energy and only manage to squeeze out 2 SS unless under the effects of Goremaw's Bite, which only happens once a minute, in which case I can get three.
Also, when you have the Deeper Stratagem talent you have a 100% chance for Relentless strikes to refund 40 energy, then a 20% chance for another 40 energy sometimes resulting in a 45 net energy gain when you use a finisher, is this intended? 

Edit 2: Looked it up and it is intended, meaning you could squeeze out more shadowstrikes if RS procs twice, but is unlikely since it only has that 20% chance. I think this should be noted, though.

You could like use Symbols of death at the end of SD where you have ~ 0.3 sec remaining. Because you cant use a SS in this timewindow as it will abort the cast you are free to reapply symbols in this window.

I have a question tho: The 3rd gold perk (Shadow nova i guess its in english), does it proc when leaving SD or only on Vanish/Stealth?

[Valks 2,375]

1 hour ago, Guest Dachdegger said:

I have a question tho: The 3rd gold perk (Shadow nova i guess its in english), does it proc when leaving SD or only on Vanish/Stealth?

Yes, it works with SD.

[Guest Kizeron]

As previously stated, I too am struggling with the transition to DS from Vigor.
I find that I can only SS 4 times if I either get:
1) good 'Shadow techniques' procs so I can eviscerate with only 2 usages of SS - ( have 5 or 6 cps ) that way I get energy back from 'Relentless strikes' to get the last 2 SS's
2) I get good procs with 'Energetic Stabbing' which simply gets me enough energy to get through..

I've found a very minor solution while haste doesn't quite generate enough energy, is the 'Stabilized Energy Pendant' necklace, which grants 5% more maximum energy. I haven't tested it thoroughly though.
For aoe however, on more than 5 adds I find DS a clear winner...


On another note, I don't know if other people have this issue but I feel with vigor talent and shadow blades active ( since SS with shadow blades up gives 3 combo points ), after one SS with 3/5 combo points I'm unsure whether to SS again and over cap to 6/5 or to wait for a shadow techniques proc to get 4/5 or 5/5 cps.  Though waiting is not usually a good idea since I don't want to waste shadow dance..
Anybody have any advice on this situation?
 

[Carrn 284]

15 hours ago, Guest Kizeron said:

As previously stated, I too am struggling with the transition to DS from Vigor.
I find that I can only SS 4 times if I either get:
1) good 'Shadow techniques' procs so I can eviscerate with only 2 usages of SS - ( have 5 or 6 cps ) that way I get energy back from 'Relentless strikes' to get the last 2 SS's
2) I get good procs with 'Energetic Stabbing' which simply gets me enough energy to get through..

I've found a very minor solution while haste doesn't quite generate enough energy, is the 'Stabilized Energy Pendant' necklace, which grants 5% more maximum energy. I haven't tested it thoroughly though.
For aoe however, on more than 5 adds I find DS a clear winner...


On another note, I don't know if other people have this issue but I feel with vigor talent and shadow blades active ( since SS with shadow blades up gives 3 combo points ), after one SS with 3/5 combo points I'm unsure whether to SS again and over cap to 6/5 or to wait for a shadow techniques proc to get 4/5 or 5/5 cps.  Though waiting is not usually a good idea since I don't want to waste shadow dance..
Anybody have any advice on this situation?
 

Yeah, 4 is challenging without a bit more passive Haste that comes with item level. Don't worry about it too much, just do your best to enter SD with as much Energy as you can 

And yes, DS makes it MUCH easier to use SD with SB up. DS lets you go SS > SS > Evis, rather than struggle with wasting CPs or not. My advice would be to use DS

[Guest Mr. Sealion]

Hi, just a quick question.

Is there a reason you've suggested MoD as the optimal talent for tier 7?

Cause apparently, according to sims (https://onedrive.live.com/view.aspx?resid=E269C12457D12FAC!117&ithint=file%2cxlsx&app=Excel&authkey=!AHxBKV_biTNzfRY), masters of shadows seems to pull ahead, and by a not-so-small margin (roughly 13k on single target).

 

Can you confirm this?

[Necrolepsey 0]

So I am new here, and I'm not sure if I am reading this right, but is the Sub. gear/legendaries/BiS page showing the BiS trinkets for Outlaw? The trinket sims anyways? Even if you look at the gear for each sim it looks like it has the Dreadblades equipped.

Edited September 29, 2016 by Necrolepsey

[Kopaszfelix 0]

What do you guys think is the ideal haste % with DS for around ilvl 860?

[Valks 2,375]

6 hours ago, Guest Mr. Sealion said:

Is there a reason you've suggested MoD as the optimal talent for tier 7?

Passing this on to Furty, will let him take a look/update! Thanks for letting us know :)

[Valks 2,375]

6 hours ago, Necrolepsey said:

So I am new here, and I'm not sure if I am reading this right, but is the Sub. gear/legendaries/BiS page showing the BiS trinkets for Outlaw? The trinket sims anyways? Even if you look at the gear for each sim it looks like it has the Dreadblades equipped.

It does look like it, yes. I'll get this updated ASAP, thanks for letting us know!

[Valks 2,375]

3 hours ago, Kopaszfelix said:

What do you guys think is the ideal haste % with DS for around ilvl 860?

I don't think there's really an ideal haste % for each item level that can be quoted. 

[Guest Kizeron]

^ He might be like a soft cap to get 4 SS's in a shadow dance the majority of the time or something?

I don't know if this helps anyone one it's a small idea - and well subtley is obviously all about the subtleties.
I find trying to align shadow dance for when I have to reapply nightblade - allows me to pull off 4 SS's much more often because of evis costing 35 energy and nightblade only costing 25 (I get stuck with full cps but no energy a decent amount). Then after you cast that - you're guaranteed at least 25 energy back if you used 5 or 6 cps to use for your next SS.

Also Blainie it seems to be completely left out that sprint is a dps cooldown once you get the artifact point to make you vanish 3 secs after using it without being damaged~
 

[Valks 2,375]

50 minutes ago, Guest Kizeron said:

^ He might be like a soft cap to get 4 SS's in a shadow dance the majority of the time or something?

For that, unfortunately, I honestly have no idea, sorry! @Carrn, any ideas?

51 minutes ago, Guest Kizeron said:

Also Blainie it seems to be completely left out that sprint is a dps cooldown once you get the artifact point to make you vanish 3 secs after using it without being damaged~

Thanks for the rest of your comment, hopefully it can help someone out! As for this, I'll pass it on to Furty so that we can get it updated and included :)

[Carrn 284]

52 minutes ago, Guest Kizeron said:

^ He might be like a soft cap to get 4 SS's in a shadow dance the majority of the time or something?

I don't know if this helps anyone one it's a small idea - and well subtley is obviously all about the subtleties.
I find trying to align shadow dance for when I have to reapply nightblade - allows me to pull off 4 SS's much more often because of evis costing 35 energy and nightblade only costing 25 (I get stuck with full cps but no energy a decent amount). Then after you cast that - you're guaranteed at least 25 energy back if you used 5 or 6 cps to use for your next SS.

Also Blainie it seems to be completely left out that sprint is a dps cooldown once you get the artifact point to make you vanish 3 secs after using it without being damaged~
 

Seems like slightly over 10% Haste is enough to get 4 SS in before Dance is over. I don't have that much myself, but as I've said previously I'm not too worried about it. 3 isn't ideal but not game-breakingly bad, and we'll gradually get more Haste as gear goes up.

1 minute ago, Blainie said:

Thanks for the rest of your comment, hopefully it can help someone out! As for this, I'll pass it on to Furty so that we can get it updated and included :)

It's actually 3 seconds without taking damage OR dealing it. It's very situational and isn't normally a dps boost, however in certain situations it might be good (running to an add, or phase changes on fights, for example).

[Valks 2,375]

48 minutes ago, Carrn said:

It's actually 3 seconds without taking damage OR dealing it. It's very situational and isn't normally a dps boost, however in certain situations it might be good (running to an add, or phase changes on fights, for example).

Is it worth stopping auto-attacking during a period of downtime (where you are waiting for energy) for it to proc?

[Carrn 284]

6 minutes ago, Blainie said:

Is it worth stopping auto-attacking during a period of downtime (where you are waiting for energy) for it to proc?

I'm not sure if it only stops on actual attacks or dealing any damage at all - if it includes DoTs it's probably not worth letting Nightblade drop and to only take advantage of it when possible. I'm sure there will be times when it's possible, such as transitioning into the Eye on Il'gynoth, but on Single Target fights I don't think it would be worth it

If it only requires you to not attack and you can still have DoTs up, then yeah absolutely when you get to a point where you have low energy and don't need to do anything else for a few seconds it would be great

[Valks 2,375]

7 minutes ago, Carrn said:

I'm not sure if it only stops on actual attacks or dealing any damage at all - if it includes DoTs it's probably not worth letting Nightblade drop and to only take advantage of it when possible. I'm sure there will be times when it's possible, such as transitioning into the Eye on Il'gynoth, but on Single Target fights I don't think it would be worth it

If it only requires you to not attack and you can still have DoTs up, then yeah absolutely when you get to a point where you have low energy and don't need to do anything else for a few seconds it would be great

Interesting. Will see what Furty says as well. Don't suppose you have the trait to test it? My rogue isn't even 110 yet.

[Carrn 284]

3 minutes ago, Blainie said:

Interesting. Will see what Furty says as well. Don't suppose you have the trait to test it? My rogue isn't even 110 yet.

Not yet, soon though. Haven't had as much time to grind as I would like, with how active the forums have been and the demands of being in Law, and I went Outlaw first  which means I wasted a ton of AP haha. 

I'll ask around to the couple people I know who played Sub since the start and see if they've picked it up yet. Not sure when I'll have an answer for you but I'll let you know when I do