Subtlety Rogue 7.3

[Furty 51]

39 minutes ago, Guest Aoe Burst said:

Can someone explain to me how to AoE burst as a sub rogue? The only AoE we got is Shuriken storm isnt it? Even with Shadow Dance the dmg might get doubled, but unless there are about 5+ adds around wont Shadow strikes + Eviscerate be dealing more damage in general? Also, even with Vigor you will be running out of energy after 5 casts and then it takes a while to get the next ones back in, no?

`Sorry for this newb question, but Im almost completly new to WoW.

SS generates a lot of combo points. On extended AoE you'll use your CP to apply Nightblades. That said your AoE is not going to be very impressive when compared with a proper spec like Marksman or Havoc.

[Carrn 284]

7 hours ago, Blainie said:

I might be wrong, but I believe it is because Weaponmaster has technically more potential AoE damage? It's not just a flat 6% damage boost. Technically it could proc on every single ability you case over the course of a 6-minute fight. Will it? No, you have better chances of multiple lottery wins, but it technically could. 

Going to tag @Carrn anyway, since he can explain better than me, or point out an error!

I think primarily it's because of how Weaponmaster works with Shuriken Storm (ability) and Second Shuriken (artifact trait). Weaponmaster doesn't roll on ability cast, it rolls on target hit - when there's 1 target, it has a 6% chance to hit twice, but when there's 2 targets being hit it has 2 different 6% chances to hit twice (once on each target).  

Second Shuriken is literally just more chances to strike twice - if I'm correct (and I'm not 100% sure that I am), Second Shuriken can proc off both the initial hit and the Weaponmaster duplicate, and it can also proc Weaponmaster on its own.

[Carrn 284]

7 hours ago, Blainie said:

Our PvP guides are slowly being introduced, but currently we're just trying to make sure there is a guide for each class. We'll work hard to introduce more spec guides, but it does take time! 

Let me know if you want some help with these - I've been trying to write a basic introductory guide for Arenas in general, but haven't really been able to find much time recently. If it's actually something you want to push for the site I'll make it more of a priority and see how I can help

pm me for my Skype if you'd like to chat about it

[Guest `Grp]

22 hours ago, Furty said:

SS generates a lot of combo points. On extended AoE you'll use your CP to apply Nightblades. That said your AoE is not going to be very impressive when compared with a proper spec like Marksman or Havoc.

Why would ppl allow Rogues in their group then? Dont get me, Rogue is my fav Class, but it seems other Meeles like Windwalker Monk are much stronger right now ?

[Carrn 284]

11 hours ago, Guest `Grp said:

Why would ppl allow Rogues in their group then? Dont get me, Rogue is my fav Class, but it seems other Meeles like Windwalker Monk are much stronger right now ?

Every spec has different strengths and weaknesses.

One of Rogues' strengths is not burst AoE, although Sub's is not bad. Other classes, like DH or WW Monk, have very strong burst AoE

[Guest `Grp]

6 hours ago, Carrn said:

Every spec has different strengths and weaknesses.

One of Rogues' strengths is not burst AoE, although Sub's is not bad. Other classes, like DH or WW Monk, have very strong burst AoE

Thanks everyone for answering my noob questions ^^

I dont know. Im kinda not getting how to deal more then 250k dps constantly. My GS is 859 atm, Im kinda gimping around at 200-250k (with bufffood, flask etc). Ive read the Guide (obvly), I often find myself pooling my Energy, or at longer encounters simply running out of ShadowDances.

[Furty 51]

11 hours ago, Guest `Grp said:

Thanks everyone for answering my noob questions ^^

I dont know. Im kinda not getting how to deal more then 250k dps constantly. My GS is 859 atm, Im kinda gimping around at 200-250k (with bufffood, flask etc). Ive read the Guide (obvly), I often find myself pooling my Energy, or at longer encounters simply running out of ShadowDances.

And to be entirely fair WW and Havoc are limited to that single spec, so they often fail to have the same adaptive nature and viability patch to patch or fight to fight that Rogues can bring to bear.

[Valks 2,375]

18 hours ago, Guest `Grp said:

Thanks everyone for answering my noob questions ^^

I dont know. Im kinda not getting how to deal more then 250k dps constantly. My GS is 859 atm, Im kinda gimping around at 200-250k (with bufffood, flask etc). Ive read the Guide (obvly), I often find myself pooling my Energy, or at longer encounters simply running out of ShadowDances.

If you're struggling DPS-wise, the easiest way to get help is through posting logs on our Rogue forum, for sure.

[Guest Silvya]

23 hours ago, Guest `Grp said:

Thanks everyone for answering my noob questions ^^

I dont know. Im kinda not getting how to deal more then 250k dps constantly. My GS is 859 atm, Im kinda gimping around at 200-250k (with bufffood, flask etc). Ive read the Guide (obvly), I often find myself pooling my Energy, or at longer encounters simply running out of ShadowDances.

When gearing up and looting the right legendary (boots not to mention them) you gain dps really fast. Ursoc trinket and the boots allowed my simcrafts to gain 100k dps (not as much on a real fight but not far).

[Guest `Grp]

3 hours ago, Guest Silvya said:

When gearing up and looting the right legendary (boots not to mention them) you gain dps really fast. Ursoc trinket and the boots allowed my simcrafts to gain 100k dps (not as much on a real fight but not far).

Well I cant really influence that, sadly :P wouldnt mind a Legendary for sure ^^.

8 hours ago, Blainie said:

If you're struggling DPS-wise, the easiest way to get help is through posting logs on our Rogue forum, for sure.

Where do I find them?

[Guest Bandito]

Hello,

After reading this guide, I decided to switch from Vigor to Deeper Stratagem. Simcraft indeed tells me this should increase my overall DPS, but I really struggle getting 4 Shadowstrikes inside Shadowdance without the 150 energy pool. Even on dummy target, entering Shadowdance with 100 energy, I smash my keyboard like crazy but I'm only able to pull out SS-SS-Eve-SS, and then I come out SD with too little energy to do that 4rth Shadowstrike.

Not that I have about 7% haste, but do you get 4 SS inside SD with the DS talent?

 

Thank you!

[Valks 2,375]

22 hours ago, Guest `Grp said:

Where do I find them?

Logs? You'll need to take them yourself while playing through WarcraftLogs. Check out this link:

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/help/start/

[Valks 2,375]

58 minutes ago, Guest Bandito said:

Not that I have about 7% haste, but do you get 4 SS inside SD with the DS talent?

Leaving this for @Furty or @Carrn, whoever is fastest! I can't answer it unfortunately, sorry!

[Carrn 284]

6 hours ago, Guest Bandito said:

Hello,

After reading this guide, I decided to switch from Vigor to Deeper Stratagem. Simcraft indeed tells me this should increase my overall DPS, but I really struggle getting 4 Shadowstrikes inside Shadowdance without the 150 energy pool. Even on dummy target, entering Shadowdance with 100 energy, I smash my keyboard like crazy but I'm only able to pull out SS-SS-Eve-SS, and then I come out SD with too little energy to do that 4rth Shadowstrike.

Not that I have about 7% haste, but do you get 4 SS inside SD with the DS talent?

 

Thank you!

Sometimes you won't get it, and sometimes it will happen easily. Energetic Stabbing (artifact trait) makes it much easier to get

As you get a little higher Haste it happens regularly - I sit around 9.5% in current gear and the only time I don't get 4SS is when I need to refresh Symbols of Death. Even then, if you use a 6CP finisher, you have a 20% change to refund energy a second time, which means you can refresh SoD for free and still hit 4 SS casts.

[Guest Guest]

What about updating the legendaries? i cant remember that your list was correct at any date tbh.

https://simc.skasch.com/rog_sub_t19m_patchwerk_legendaries.html

http://simc.aethys.eu/rog_sub_t19m_1t_legendaries.html

[Guest Guest]

I would resally appreciate if sb could update the sub guide... I've no idea, if I'm playing correctly and a lot here is outdated.

[Guest Maive]

Hi.  I just want to give some input.  Shadowcraft lists the stat weights (for my gear set, of course) as:

Agility 1.00

Mastery 0.85

Versatility 0.80

Crit 0.75

Haste 0.55

These weights are significantly in contrast to the weights listed on this guide.  It also lists Weaponmaster as being significantly better (about 50% better) than Master of Subtlety.  I have tested this MANY times on a target dummy, and I consistently get significantly better results with Weaponmaster.  This is in contrast with this guide, which suggests that Master of Subtlety is better when no adds are present.  

I am 855 equipped item level (858 overall), and can consistently do 300k DPS, adds or not, with suboptimal food (drogbar salmon), suboptimal flask (greater draenic agility), and suboptimal potions (prolonged power).  

[Guest Maive]

On 11/15/2016 at 5:24 PM, Guest Bandito said:

Hello,

After reading this guide, I decided to switch from Vigor to Deeper Stratagem. Simcraft indeed tells me this should increase my overall DPS, but I really struggle getting 4 Shadowstrikes inside Shadowdance without the 150 energy pool. Even on dummy target, entering Shadowdance with 100 energy, I smash my keyboard like crazy but I'm only able to pull out SS-SS-Eve-SS, and then I come out SD with too little energy to do that 4rth Shadowstrike.

Not that I have about 7% haste, but do you get 4 SS inside SD with the DS talent?

 

Thank you!

I can tell you what's going on here.  If you don't have Shadowblades active, two Shadowtrikes will only yield 4 combo points.  So before you Eviscerate, you have to let Shadow Techniques give you a bonus combo point so your Eviscerate is with 5 combo points and you have a 100% chance for your Eviscerate to refund energy via Relentless Strikes.  If you Evis before getting that extra combo point, there is a 20% chance it will not refund any energy, and you won't be able to get 4 Shadowstrikes in your Shadow Dance window.  Also, if Shadow Techniques takes too long to generate that 5th combo point, you won't have enough Shadow Dance window left to get 4 Shadowstrikes, even with the energy refund.  

Sometimes you just can't get 4 Shadow Strikes due to bad luck. 

(Note, I have 3% haste and can usually get 4 off if I wait no longer than half a second or so to get that 5th combo point before using Evis.  I use Subterfuge)

[Guest Maive]

I also want to give some input on Weaponmaster.  Keep in mind it gives your abilities a 6% chance to hit twice each time they deal damage.  This means each Nightblade TICK has this chance.  If you keep Nightblade up for long enough, it effectively results in a 6% damage increase to Nightblade.  Also, if it procs on a combo point generating move, you get the combo points twice as well as the damage.  And besides all that, if you're lucky enough for it to proc on an Evis, that by itself is enough to make it better than Master of Subtlety.  

[Valks 2,375]

Just posting in response to all of the comments above! I'm really sorry guys, I've made sure to put down a note and will poke the writer for a set of updates. I know this isn't what you want and you'd prefer for me to tell you it has already been done, but unfortunately I can't!

Anyway, I can only ask for your patience once more and hopefully we'll get things up to standard once more! :)

[Guest Stats]

So the Stat Priority is outdated? Where can I find the new exact ones? Seems like Mastery got slightly more important than Vers now.

[Carrn 284]

18 hours ago, Guest Stats said:

So the Stat Priority is outdated? Where can I find the new exact ones? Seems like Mastery got slightly more important than Vers now.

Mastery and Vers are close to equal. Stat weights will always change; to find out what is best for your character you should sim your character

[Guest Stats]

On 26.11.2016 at 10:31 PM, Carrn said:

Mastery and Vers are close to equal. Stat weights will always change; to find out what is best for your character you should sim your character

 

Phew that looks awfully complicated.

[Guest Maive]

15 hours ago, Guest Stats said:

 

Phew that looks awfully complicated.

If you know a little bit of basic algebra you can find rough values of your stat weights using a target dummy.  It's just going to be less accurate than simming because a simulation can run a fight thousands of times whereas you would probably only run a target dummy tens of times.  However it would more accurately reflect your *rotation* (the way you use your abilities, really).  

[Guest Lucient]

Is this guide going to be updated anytime soon? It still shows vers > mastery when mastery is best stat then vers should be second. Also will vigor be chosen over DS in the upcoming patch 7.1.5? Thank you.