Subtlety Rogue 7.3

[Kryptknight 4]

1 hour ago, Furty said:

Most of the incoming changes should be live now :) There will be more updates, as always, as we learn more and I and other hardcore players become more comfortable with the changes and discover new tricks! 

Awesome, thank you! Will be interesting to see how talents/legendaries scale with ToS gear. 

On talent selection note, a quick question. In your experience over the past couple of days, how big is the damage difference between using Master of Subtlety/Nightstalker/Dark Shadow vs. Weaponmaster/Shadow Focus/Enveloping Shadows for ST raid encounters? Admittedly I haven't tried the latter talent set-up yet, but MoS/Nightstalker/DS has worked quite well for me over the past couple of days. It seems to me that the % damage increase talents would scale better with improved gear (that's my assumption, anyway). 

Edited June 15, 2017 by Kryptknight

[Furty 51]

1 hour ago, Kryptknight said:

Awesome, thank you! Will be interesting to see how talents/legendaries scale with ToS gear. 

On talent selection note, a quick question. In your experience over the past couple of days, how big is the damage difference between using Master of Subtlety/Nightstalker/Dark Shadow vs. Weaponmaster/Shadow Focus/Enveloping Shadows for ST raid encounters? Admittedly I haven't tried the latter talent set-up yet, but MoS/Nightstalker/DS has worked quite well for me over the past couple of days. It seems to me that the % damage increase talents would scale better with improved gear (that's my assumption, anyway). 

My best experience has come with Weaponmaster/Shadow Focus/Enveloping Shadows but I see Dark Shadow popping up with comparable numbers to mine about as often as I see Enveloping Shadows on WCL, so we may need a slightly larger sample size. Personally I really like the feel of having dance up near constantly for the first 30 seconds of the encounter and it seems to be equally potent on short and long fights. Maybe experiment with your latter setup and see how it feels. 

[Carrn 284]

I'd love to weigh in on it, but I'm still 3 days out from having internet access so I can play. Fml

[Guest Tsuid]

I feel like Subterfuge is a must have. Unless i'm doing something wrong, i cant use 4x SS + finisher during dance if i dont go Subterfuge. No matter how high on energy i am when i enter dance, its a GCD issue. And i swear i'm spamming pretty hard. Maybe it comes from bar switching taking a little time and fucking up my dance ? Is there a way to create a 1 button Backstab / SS macro according to stance ? I'm using bartender and both backstab and SS are bind on 3.

An other thing with 7.2.5 is energy management. It feels so good ! I even find myself with so much energy making me cap at 100 for a few seconds and i probably miss out a lot of backstab to expend energy before going shadow dance or using a finisher. Is there any rule of thumb about what to do when u are on 70+ energy // high cp with new master of shadows mechanics ?

[Carrn 284]

3 hours ago, Guest Tsuid said:

I feel like Subterfuge is a must have. Unless i'm doing something wrong, i cant use 4x SS + finisher during dance if i dont go Subterfuge. No matter how high on energy i am when i enter dance, its a GCD issue. And i swear i'm spamming pretty hard. Maybe it comes from bar switching taking a little time and fucking up my dance ? Is there a way to create a 1 button Backstab / SS macro according to stance ? I'm using bartender and both backstab and SS are bind on 3.

An other thing with 7.2.5 is energy management. It feels so good ! I even find myself with so much energy making me cap at 100 for a few seconds and i probably miss out a lot of backstab to expend energy before going shadow dance or using a finisher. Is there any rule of thumb about what to do when u are on 70+ energy // high cp with new master of shadows mechanics ?

Yeah, you can only fit 5 skills into Dance when it lasts 5 seconds. That said, while Subterfuge might not be ideal, it isn't an awful option in any scenario. 

It won't quite feel right at first, but going SS > SS > Finisher > SS is just fine. Watch your CPs carefully though, because Shadow Techniques can proc and cause you to waste CPs. If you end up with 5 or 6 before your 2nd SS, make sure you dump CPs before using SS (your Dance will look like SS > Finisher > SS > SS as a result)

I don't really understand your question in the second part. You're asking what to do with higher Energy and CPs? How did you get in that position? Either you're spending Energy to generate CPs, and are therefore low on it and high on CPs, or you've just spent your CPs and are low on them but high on Energy. The only advice I can give to avoid this is to use BS a little earlier, and play Sub more to get a feel for when Shadow Techniques procs. You shouldn't end up in a situation where using Evis will cap you

Just a quick note with regards to Energy, you should be careful about Goremaw's and the trait that makes your finishers free - you'll want to dump quite a bit of Energy in this window, as Evis won't spend 35 before restoring 30-36. 

[Guest Tsuid]

Quote

Just a quick note with regards to Energy, you should be careful about Goremaw's and the trait that makes your finishers free - you'll want to dump quite a bit of Energy in this window, as Evis won't spend 35 before restoring 30-36. 

yeah Goremaw is part of the energy overload. When i proc goremaw + symbols of death +  master of shadow the energy regen is insane and sometimes i end up if too much of everything and feel like im wasting energy or cp

[Carrn 284]

18 hours ago, Guest Tsuid said:

yeah Goremaw is part of the energy overload. When i proc goremaw + symbols of death +  master of shadow the energy regen is insane and sometimes i end up if too much of everything and feel like im wasting energy or cp

Yeah it's a lot, you just gotta prioritize your spending. Capping Energy isn't a bad thing, really, it's just not ideal. More like wasting potential resources (ie: you could be gaining some), whereas overcapping on CPs is wasting actual resources because you spent the Energy to get nothing

[Guest V6ix]

I am 912 sub rogue and the new  patch changes are amazing. Gloomblade is way to go in any situation if you don't wanna have that headache of stupid backstab positioning. not sure why icy veins talent build info is "old" probably thats why those builds sucks balls according to what it is now. I would love very much that nightstalker would indeed do 50% more dmg lol. deeper strategam is insane with legendary ring that gives vigor talent, otherwise i find energy starvation, very clunky skill usage flow without vigor and dps loss. Not sure how weaponmaster with that insane 6% chance is way to go lol. You must have haste stacked to 30% or something.

[Furty 51]

25 minutes ago, Guest V6ix said:

I am 912 sub rogue and the new  patch changes are amazing. Gloomblade is way to go in any situation if you don't wanna have that headache of stupid backstab positioning. not sure why icy veins talent build info is "old" probably thats why those builds sucks balls according to what it is now. I would love very much that nightstalker would indeed do 50% more dmg lol. deeper strategam is insane with legendary ring that gives vigor talent, otherwise i find energy starvation, very clunky skill usage flow without vigor and dps loss. Not sure how weaponmaster with that insane 6% chance is way to go lol. You must have haste stacked to 30% or something.

Glad you're enjoying the changes, I know I am. Gloomblade still isn't viable in any progression environment but it's fine for casual play. If you would like supporting empirical evidence you can check some of the top logs here:

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/rankings/11#class=Rogue&spec=Subtlety&partition=3

[Guest Tsuid]

Anyone else experiencing a shift in stat weight from Mastery / Smthing to Crit / Versa ? Most of the Raidbots sims i ran the past few days surprised me with high crit gear being better than mastery, so i ran a Stat Weight sim and here is what i've got :

• Agi : 19.98
• Crit : 15.56
• Vers : 14.85
• Mastery : 14.02
• Haste : 12.19

My rogue is 896 ilvl and was mostly oriented towards mastery gear. Here are my current stats : 31 / 9 / 83 / 6 - (Crit / Haste / Mast / Vers)

[Carrn 284]

Those values are basically identical. It is likely due to you just not having a lot of Crit, so until you get a little more, it will be ever so slightly more valuable than some other stats. With those weights, you're basically going to end up picking the highest ilevel one piece of loot

[Kryptknight 4]

21 hours ago, Guest Tsuid said:

Anyone else experiencing a shift in stat weight from Mastery / Smthing to Crit / Versa ? Most of the Raidbots sims i ran the past few days surprised me with high crit gear being better than mastery, so i ran a Stat Weight sim and here is what i've got :

• Agi : 19.98
• Crit : 15.56
• Vers : 14.85
• Mastery : 14.02
• Haste : 12.19

My rogue is 896 ilvl and was mostly oriented towards mastery gear. Here are my current stats : 31 / 9 / 83 / 6 - (Crit / Haste / Mast / Vers)

I had a similar question the other day. My crit, mastery, and vers are nearly identical. I did a lot of different gear swaps yesterday and vers and mastery went back and forth as the best. Currently there is a .05 difference for me between the two with crit slightly more than 1 pt behind. 

[Silvya 0]

I took a look at warcraftlogs (as well as personnal tryal) for ToS yesterday and saw that most of sub rogues are playing the burst template. I was wondering if we should use DfA on CD and diring opener sequence?

It would be nice to update rotation page with mentions for this build. I think the vanish part is also missing from the new opener sequence!

[Kryptknight 4]

2 hours ago, Silvya said:

I took a look at warcraftlogs (as well as personnal tryal) for ToS yesterday and saw that most of sub rogues are playing the burst template. I was wondering if we should use DfA on CD and diring opener sequence?

It would be nice to update rotation page with mentions for this build. I think the vanish part is also missing from the new opener sequence!

Just noticed this earlier as well. I got FotD in my M+ cache so I'd been using that this week and the burst template seems quite strong with it in particular. 

[Carrn 284]

2 hours ago, Silvya said:

I took a look at warcraftlogs (as well as personnal tryal) for ToS yesterday and saw that most of sub rogues are playing the burst template. I was wondering if we should use DfA on CD and diring opener sequence?

It would be nice to update rotation page with mentions for this build. I think the vanish part is also missing from the new opener sequence!

You want to use DfA inside Shadow Dance or from Vanish.

From what I found yesterday going through Heroic, Energy is no longer an issue and as such Master of Shadows is less effective than it used to be.

Personally I was playing 1-1-1-3-2-1-3 for talents, and yes there should be mention of playstyle changes when using this build

Quick reminder that this thread is for comments about the guide specifically and not for overall discussion of the spec and how to play it. You're all more than welcome over at the Rogue Forums, where I'll be glad to go on for hours about how good Sub is and offer any pointers that I can.

[Silvya 0]

2 hours ago, Carrn said:

You want to use DfA inside Shadow Dance or from Vanish.

From what I found yesterday going through Heroic, Energy is no longer an issue and as such Master of Shadows is less effective than it used to be.

Personally I was playing 1-1-1-3-2-1-3 for talents, and yes there should be mention of playstyle changes when using this build

Quick reminder that this thread is for comments about the guide specifically and not for overall discussion of the spec and how to play it. You're all more than welcome over at the Rogue Forums, where I'll be glad to go on for hours about how good Sub is and offer any pointers that I can.

Sure, but I thought this had to do with the guide as it imply some changes to the rotation page :) I'll eventually open a debate on the other forum section about when we should use DfA

[Carrn 284]

1 hour ago, Silvya said:

Sure, but I thought this had to do with the guide as it imply some changes to the rotation page :) I'll eventually open a debate on the other forum section about when we should use DfA

Yeah it wasn't directed at you specifically, I just didn't want the thread to get derailed too much. I actually started going on about how and why the talents I was running seems super useful etc; my comment was directed at me as much as anyone else :P

[Silvya 0]

For relics simcrafting, it seems that soulshadow is bis : https://ravenholdt-tc.github.io/relics_rogue_subtlety_t19.html

Seems logic with bracers being bis now and elysandre trinket we can be get at least 50% uptime on shadow blades.

There's also a bug with DfA and weapon master that prevent the evisc part from happening when the cleave part procs. (https://github.com/Ravenholdt-TC/Rogue/issues/25)

 

[Septic7 0]

Ι see many to choose mark of death with dark shadow build. Raidbots and simulationcraft and ask mr robot mark of death sims too high . I read your guide and mark of death you said that is not a good choice. I m so confused can u help me?

[Carrn 284]

9 hours ago, Septic7 said:

Ι see many to choose mark of death with dark shadow build. Raidbots and simulationcraft and ask mr robot mark of death sims too high . I read your guide and mark of death you said that is not a good choice. I m so confused can u help me?

I'm not sure why the guide doesn't cover the Dark Shadow build. It is one that I quite enjoy and find is very useful, and as I said earlier it should be included.

[Guest Adenine]

Hey, just wanted to say that in relic part of the guide, the soul shadows are twice, in both 1st and 7th place.

Also wanted to ask for opinion on talent choice for Avatar and Maiden boss encounters, mainly in the maiden bossfight, you are not able to backstab from behind whole time, is it worth to roll gloomblade there? Open to any thoughts

[Guest Spanosa]

On the Death For Above section with Shadow Dance, it says to use Shadow Dance shortly before landing to get the bonus 30% damage. This does not appear possible. You cannot activate Shadow Dance when using Death from Above. Am I missing something?

[Tsuid 0]

Hey i'd like a little bit more infos about the Dark shadows / DFA build :

Quote

Quote

You should always delay  Death from Above so that it can be used with  Shadow Dance and  Symbols of Death.

 

I love this build but i used to cast Symbols of Death whenever its off-cd and i'm low(ish) on energy in order to get as much casts as possible during fight. Same with DFA. My numbers were decent doing this way.

Now i'm trying to combo for the big numbers : SD > SoD > DFA (with Finality buff / Shurikens up if possible) but i end up waiting so much sometimes. Is it a matter of feeling or is there a specific rotation in order to set this up much easier ? (Like DFA when SoD is on 10sec cooldown or something). I feel like doing sometimes DFA out of dance or in dance but without Sod, all according to situation in order to not fuck up my cycle is more rewarding than going for a psychorigid strategy but i might be wrong.

Btw can you link me a way to setup Powa for a nicer Finality buff display ? I can't manage to do it myself and didnt find any Powa guides, everyone seems to be using WeakAuras :(

Thx guys !

[Carrn 284]

2 hours ago, Tsuid said:

I love this build but i used to cast Symbols of Death whenever its off-cd and i'm low(ish) on energy in order to get as much casts as possible during fight. Same with DFA. My numbers were decent doing this way.

Now i'm trying to combo for the big numbers : SD > SoD > DFA (with Finality buff / Shurikens up if possible) but i end up waiting so much sometimes. Is it a matter of feeling or is there a specific rotation in order to set this up much easier ? (Like DFA when SoD is on 10sec cooldown or something). I feel like doing sometimes DFA out of dance or in dance but without Sod, all according to situation in order to not fuck up my cycle is more rewarding than going for a psychorigid strategy but i might be wrong.

It's not super rigid. However, playing Dark Shadow, you should realistically have SoD for every Dance. 

It isn't a rigid rotation, but it's not really worth using DfA without the damage buffs from SoD and Dance. Practicing your Energy and CP management will help a lot with getting them to line up. It's a pretty challenging spec to min/max, getting a feel for how it plays is super important.

2 hours ago, Tsuid said:

Btw can you link me a way to setup Powa for a nicer Finality buff display ? I can't manage to do it myself and didnt find any Powa guides, everyone seems to be using WeakAuras :(

No idea what Powa is, I use Weakauras

[Carrn 284]

21 hours ago, Guest Adenine said:

Hey, just wanted to say that in relic part of the guide, the soul shadows are twice, in both 1st and 7th place.

Also wanted to ask for opinion on talent choice for Avatar and Maiden boss encounters, mainly in the maiden bossfight, you are not able to backstab from behind whole time, is it worth to roll gloomblade there? Open to any thoughts

Master of Subtlety or Weaponmaster are both stronger overall