Demonology Warlock 7.3

[Furty 51]

2 hours ago, Asmaidos said:

Are you sure? From my experience in todays raid single target dmg is better with Demonic Caling and Improved Dreadstalkers...

 

100% sure, provided you're still using class trinket & 4-set.

[Asmaidos 0]

7 hours ago, Furty said:

100% sure, provided you're still using class trinket & 4-set.

Do you think there is a difference between mytic or heroic class trinket in terms of rotation? There might be a certain iLvL at which the rotation changes to not using Dreadstalkers?

 

Additional question: Why didn't the mention the change in the recent patchnotes?

Edited July 28, 2016 by Asmaidos

[klhFrenchy 0]

Hi Furty, thanks for the guide!

I had one question though for clarification re: Tier 4 talents. On the Builds and Talents section it has Power Trip as the go-to talent, but in the Rotation, Cooldowns, and Abilities section it says Power Trip is inferior to HoD and Soul Harvest in all scenarios. Is it more that PT is better w/ 4pc + Fragment, but otherwise is inferior to the others?

[Furty 51]

19 hours ago, Asmaidos said:

Do you think there is a difference between mytic or heroic class trinket in terms of rotation? There might be a certain iLvL at which the rotation changes to not using Dreadstalkers?

 

Additional question: Why didn't the mention the change in the recent patchnotes?

Nope, any level of class trinket should do it. Uncertain why it wasn't mentioned; Blizzard as a company has had repeated issues with transparency.

10 hours ago, klhFrenchy said:

Hi Furty, thanks for the guide!

I had one question though for clarification re: Tier 4 talents. On the Builds and Talents section it has Power Trip as the go-to talent, but in the Rotation, Cooldowns, and Abilities section it says Power Trip is inferior to HoD and Soul Harvest in all scenarios. Is it more that PT is better w/ 4pc + Fragment, but otherwise is inferior to the others?

Yeah that's correct. Sincerest apologies if there's a few confusing sections like that, because a lot of the pre-patch stuff involving the 4-piece + fragment is basically the exact opposite of what you do without said items, or in Legion.

[Guest Sin]

How do Demo warlocks compare in Legion in raids and dungeons. I want to raid on my demo lock but if the damage done is abysmal then I would like to know before I jump into this. Thank you.

[Guest confused power trip]

There appears to be contradictory information between the talent page and the rotation page. On the talent page it says power trip is best 1-2 targets however when you move to tier 4 talents on the rotation page it says power trip is worse in all situations. Some clarification would be nice

[Furty 51]

On 7/30/2016 at 5:08 PM, Guest Sin said:

How do Demo warlocks compare in Legion in raids and dungeons. I want to raid on my demo lock but if the damage done is abysmal then I would like to know before I jump into this. Thank you.

Looking pretty weak on Beta at 110 currently.

12 hours ago, Guest confused power trip said:

There appears to be contradictory information between the talent page and the rotation page. On the talent page it says power trip is best 1-2 targets however when you move to tier 4 talents on the rotation page it says power trip is worse in all situations. Some clarification would be nice

Talents page is referring to the T18 4P bonus build. On the rotation page there is a section addressing that build where it also tells you to disregard everything else below that section on the rotation page. 

[Guest Arende]

With the latest 4set nerf down to 2%, is it worth breaking this bonus in favor of more haste+ilvl ? Speaking about 720(2/2)  tier chest vs. 741(2/2) non-tier chest with more haste+crit and hence replacing the second weakest of the set (i guess i have spare haste hands), or is this 2% proc chance still better option overall ? 

[Guest tonid]

Has anyone figured out yet how to make a weak aura for demonic empowerment? It's not a problem to track the felguard (aura target = pet), but the dreadstalkers and imps are much more troublesome for me (I tried "Specific Unit" as a target, but it doesn't show for dreadstalkers, probably because they are regarded as guardians, not regular npcs)...

[Furty 51]

On 8/1/2016 at 9:25 AM, Guest Arende said:

With the latest 4set nerf down to 2%, is it worth breaking this bonus in favor of more haste+ilvl ? Speaking about 720(2/2)  tier chest vs. 741(2/2) non-tier chest with more haste+crit and hence replacing the second weakest of the set (i guess i have spare haste hands), or is this 2% proc chance still better option overall ? 

Stick with the set bonus.

On 8/1/2016 at 5:30 PM, Guest tonid said:

Has anyone figured out yet how to make a weak aura for demonic empowerment? It's not a problem to track the felguard (aura target = pet), but the dreadstalkers and imps are much more troublesome for me (I tried "Specific Unit" as a target, but it doesn't show for dreadstalkers, probably because they are regarded as guardians, not regular npcs)...

pastebin.com/u/furty - I've posted a Demon Tracker which automatically changes color if active demons are empowered.

[Guest Question for castbar]

The Demontracker is awsome, but I think i will build a smaller version, it doesn't fit my UI completely.

@FurtyWhich Castbar Addon do you use, and which aura tracker (on the target)? I have imported  your elvui legion profile and had no castbar and no aura tracker.

[Furty 51]

On 8/4/2016 at 7:32 AM, Guest Question for castbar said:

The Demontracker is awsome, but I think i will build a smaller version, it doesn't fit my UI completely.

@FurtyWhich Castbar Addon do you use, and which aura tracker (on the target)? I have imported  your elvui legion profile and had no castbar and no aura tracker.

I use Gnosis for castbars and WeakAuras for tracking stuff. Probably also going to use Gnosis for tracking my DoTs come Legion.

[Guest Guest Guest]

"Shadowflame is an instant cast ability with 3 charges."

it's 2 charges

[Guest Deacaeca]

Doom is not a tick anymore. It only does damage after it expires.

[Guest Münze]

Doom is dot that ticks, normally with expiring. If you recast doom before it expires, it ticks and then drops after the expire time, otherwise a talent that casts doom on all targets of hand of guldan would make no sense, it would prevent doom from doing dmg ...

 

I have used the legion-dev branch of simcraft to simulate my wl, choose trinkets and talents for hecticAddCleave Fight (Archimonde). Simcraft gives an example rotation and from the actionlist you could reed that they only cast Demonic Empowerment when you have at least 5 Imps that are not empowered (or the last empowerment is over, after 15sec).

The Rotation then would be:

HoG, SB, HoG, SB, HoG, DE, SB, HoG, SB, HoG, SB, HoG, DE, SB .... (if you have at least 5 Imps after 3 HoG casts)

I cannot specify if this is correct, but my feeling is that I had slightly more imps out.

Can you say something to that issue @Furty

[lockish 3]

So is the guide still current? Is demo still the optimal choice right now for raiding?

[Guest Hyper]

After reading over the Demonology warlock section, I would like to comment on a few things. I mean no disrespect to the poster, but some of this information just isn't true. The talents especially. I played Demo lock exclusively on the Beta, to include raiding and all that. I've tried out all the talents, and rotations. I'll start with the talents:

Tier 1: Shadowflame is the best option. You CAN'T maintain 3 stacks, period. It's an 8s dot with a 14s CD. If you cast your second one at 7s into the Dot, the CD will reset with 1s left on the dot, but won't be available for the third. You can only get it to 3 stacks, not maintain it there. If you want to optimize DPS, save up 2 charges and build up to stacks. However even just casting it normally is a DPS boost over the others. Shadow Inspiration isn't bad, and if you don't want the added spell it's a good options, but SF is the best option. Demonic Calling is bad, period. The ONLY time it becomes viable, is if you use your legendary item that makes your dreadstalkers refund 2 shard, and even then only casting dreadstalkers when this talent procs to generate shards. 

 

Tier 2: Impending doom is ONLY decent if you're also using hand of doom, and facing a large group where you can get more imps when doom goes off, so like every 17s or so. Even then, implosion is still better. Improved Dreadstalkers is once again a bad choice as you shouldn't be casting dreadstalkers unless you have the legendary for it. Implosion is AMAZING. Even single target the damage is by a very large margin the highest out of all possible choices here. There's a delay between casting Hand of Gul'dan, and when the imps spawn. In that time, cast Implosion to clear out your old imps, and then the new imps will come out. It's actually really simple, and very good damage output both single target and AOE.

 

Tier 3: I agree that in most instances, Demon Skin is the best option here. 

 

Tier 4: Hand of Doom is the ONLY option here, point blank. You have to cast it HoG regardless, and having it also reapply doom is amazing. Even on single target, it saves you a lot of global CD's, and is vastly worth it, over a 50% chance to generate 1 shard when casting DE. Against multiple targets, like pretty much all encounters, it's even better. The poster referenced that Power Trip was better because of the 4pc and trinket, however neither has any impact on this. If anything HoD promotes more liberal use of HoG and thus more trinket procs.

 

Tier 5: All the options are good. I prefer burning rush, but that's just personal preference. 

 

Tier 6: Grimoire of Synergy is the best choice here, Service isn't bad, but costs another SS, and GCD, and doesn't make up for it.

 

Tier 7: Demonbolt should be the default option here. Soul Conduit is underpowered at the moment. Not bad, but can't keep up with the other options. Demonbolt is a good option, especially with the 4pc and trinket providing more demons. Unlike what the poster said with the 4pc and trinket helping Soul Conduit. Summon Darkglare isn't bad, but it's highly situational. You need a large amount of clumped up mobs for it to be more viable than demonbolt. Not that the damage is bad, but adding another GCD to an ability that uses a shard rather than generates a shard, and only targets mobs effected by doom (so basically requiring HoD and clumped targets to be effective) requires a lot of targets for it's burst, loss of a GCD, and use of a shard to make up for the added damage DB provides over SD in filler.

[Furty 51]

On 8/11/2016 at 2:55 PM, lockish said:

So is the guide still current? Is demo still the optimal choice right now for raiding?

Yep.

On 8/12/2016 at 0:32 PM, Guest Hyper said:

Tier 1: Shadowflame is the best option.

Tier 2: Impending doom is ONLY decent if you're also using hand of doom, and facing a large group where you can get more imps when doom goes off, so like every 17s or so. Even then, implosion is still better. Improved Dreadstalkers is once again a bad choice as you shouldn't be casting dreadstalkers unless you have the legendary for it. Implosion is AMAZING.

Tier 4: Hand of Doom is the ONLY option here, point blank. You have to cast it HoG regardless, and having it also reapply doom is amazing. Even on single target, it saves you a lot of global CD's, and is vastly worth it, over a 50% chance to generate 1 shard when casting DE.

Tier 5: All the options are good. I prefer burning rush, but that's just personal preference. 

Tier 6: Grimoire of Synergy is the best choice here, Service isn't bad, but costs another SS, and GCD, and doesn't make up for it.

Tier 7: Demonbolt should be the default option here. Soul Conduit is underpowered at the moment. Not bad, but can't keep up with the other options. Demonbolt is a good option, especially with the 4pc and trinket providing more demons. Unlike what the poster said with the 4pc and trinket helping Soul Conduit. Summon Darkglare isn't bad, but it's highly situational. You need a large amount of clumped up mobs for it to be more viable than demonbolt. Not that the damage is bad, but adding another GCD to an ability that uses a shard rather than generates a shard, and only targets mobs effected by doom (so basically requiring HoD and clumped targets to be effective) requires a lot of targets for it's burst, loss of a GCD, and use of a shard to make up for the added damage DB provides over SD in filler.

Hey - respect for typing all this out but most of it is wrong. Shadowflame is pretty garbage for the exact reasons you later cite (lack of globals). It is also tricky to use correctly and even when perfectly utilized doesn't scrape parity with its brethren (in pre-patch & Legion). Implosion is only good on extremely fast kills currently where the extra ring damage would outweigh actual meaningful damage, or on a fight like Xhulhorac where you can cheese a bit. Synergy is also pretty mediocre regardless of the length of kill (ring damage + predictable nature of GoServ pulls it ahead). I find it pretty easy to sneak in Doom casts when I'm moving but Doom is such a low priority currently that Hand of Doom is a bit wasteful. I find it's a good talent for new/inexperienced players whereas Power Trip is much better for people who know how to play. DB & SC are essentially equal, as it says.

Again I appreciate the level of detail but your logic is really inconsistent - some talents you're suggesting require heavy GCD investment while others you decry for that same reason. 

[Vike 0]

I completely disagree with you guys saying a weakness is lack of sustained cleave/AOE. Not true. I would say demo is strongest against 2-3 consistent targets like like Iron Maidens and if its more then that then they dominate because of implosion. I do agree with lack of single target burst and bad target switching but

• Weak sustained AoE

• Very inefficient at cleave and AoE

I would re evaluate that. They have amazing sustained AOE and strong cleave.

[Guest Hyper]

7 hours ago, Furty said:

Yep.

Hey - respect for typing all this out but most of it is wrong. Shadowflame is pretty garbage for the exact reasons you later cite (lack of globals). It is also tricky to use correctly and even when perfectly utilized doesn't scrape parity with its brethren (in pre-patch & Legion). Implosion is only good on extremely fast kills currently where the extra ring damage would outweigh actual meaningful damage, or on a fight like Xhulhorac where you can cheese a bit. Synergy is also pretty mediocre regardless of the length of kill (ring damage + predictable nature of GoServ pulls it ahead). I find it pretty easy to sneak in Doom casts when I'm moving but Doom is such a low priority currently that Hand of Doom is a bit wasteful. I find it's a good talent for new/inexperienced players whereas Power Trip is much better for people who know how to play. DB & SC are essentially equal, as it says.

Again I appreciate the level of detail but your logic is really inconsistent - some talents you're suggesting require heavy GCD investment while others you decry for that same reason. 

Thank you for the response. I'm sorry that you didn't understand it, but not everything is worth wasting a GCD that can be much better spent in other area's. Shadowflame is only garbage if you're just not casting it. Dreadstalkers aren't worth casting short from legendary items, they're very clearly a dps loss. Shadow Inspiration makes SB or DB instant when you cast DE, so you've got Shadowflame (100%sp+140%sp) vs (80%sp * 1.2 per pet) For the damage to overtake it, assuming you don't take the 'best option' per this guide, which makes Shadowflame clearly at least 3x better even if you don't do it well.

Tier 2 is equally as straight forward. Keeping it simple on single target, Impending doom is 1 imp every 15s ish, Improved Dreadstalkers is 2 if you cast a bad spell. After just testing, my Wild Imps are doing around 6.1k dps each over 12s, casting Implosion does 250k damage on an average hit. That's about 73k vs 250k. With extra imps, that's 146k vs 250k, still not close. That's assuming to pop it instantly. Even if you use it with 5s left on it, you've still got 43k, so the reality of it is 293k vs 146k. 

Doom dealing 500%sp shouldn't be a low priority at all, for a single GCD, or better yet, not require casting at all. That's huge. Saving a GCD, which can be used to cast a spell that would generate a share, beats a 50% to generate a shard. 

Logic is only inconsistent if you can't follow it.

[Furty 51]

8 hours ago, Vike said:

I completely disagree with you guys saying a weakness is lack of sustained cleave/AOE. Not true. I would say demo is strongest against 2-3 consistent targets like like Iron Maidens and if its more then that then they dominate because of implosion. I do agree with lack of single target burst and bad target switching but

• Weak sustained AoE

• Very inefficient at cleave and AoE

I would re evaluate that. They have amazing sustained AOE and strong cleave.

It's weaker than Destruction and Affliction at both of those roles, which makes it weak. Efficiency of cleave means you don't lose single target damage, i.e. Wreak Havoc.

1 hour ago, Guest Hyper said:

Thank you for the response. I'm sorry that you didn't understand it, but not everything is worth wasting a GCD that can be much better spent in other area's. Shadowflame is only garbage if you're just not casting it. Dreadstalkers aren't worth casting short from legendary items, they're very clearly a dps loss. Shadow Inspiration makes SB or DB instant when you cast DE, so you've got Shadowflame (100%sp+140%sp) vs (80%sp * 1.2 per pet) For the damage to overtake it, assuming you don't take the 'best option' per this guide, which makes Shadowflame clearly at least 3x better even if you don't do it well.

Tier 2 is equally as straight forward. Keeping it simple on single target, Impending doom is 1 imp every 15s ish, Improved Dreadstalkers is 2 if you cast a bad spell. After just testing, my Wild Imps are doing around 6.1k dps each over 12s, casting Implosion does 250k damage on an average hit. That's about 73k vs 250k. With extra imps, that's 146k vs 250k, still not close. That's assuming to pop it instantly. Even if you use it with 5s left on it, you've still got 43k, so the reality of it is 293k vs 146k. 

Doom dealing 500%sp shouldn't be a low priority at all, for a single GCD, or better yet, not require casting at all. That's huge. Saving a GCD, which can be used to cast a spell that would generate a share, beats a 50% to generate a shard. 

Logic is only inconsistent if you can't follow it.

As I explained, the damage isn't the only factor. It takes up a GCD which has other value and therefore you have to look at the damage delta. The same goes for Implosion, as imps have other value than just straight up damage, particularly when using the 4-set. You're welcome to bring the rest of the discussion to the forum, but it won't be updated here as it is incorrect. I can understand how an inexperienced player might jump to those conclusions though :)

[Guest Still worth?]

Is demonology still the spec to go with if you don't have the class trinket and 4 piece set bonus?  Will affliction not be better?

[Furty 51]

13 hours ago, Guest Still worth? said:

Is demonology still the spec to go with if you don't have the class trinket and 4 piece set bonus?  Will affliction not be better?

Gauging spec power level with random assortments of non-raid gear is difficult, but best guess is there is more parity between the specializations before 4-set & class trinket. Affliction does rely on the class trinket heavily as well, however.

[Guest prophet001]

 

Quote

 

3.8. Tier 4 Talents

Hand of Doom outscales Soul Harvest once there are 2 or more stacked targets for the majority of the encounter. Power Trip is inferior to both talents in all situations.

 

 

Did you mean to  say "superior"? You recommend we take that talent for both general use and raid environments.

[Guest Felokahn]

Hi furty,

I've heard the name and been referred to this site by some Guildies of mine. My questions don't really involve anything in regards to these guides. I'll just be blunt. What do you think of warlocks?  During HFC I reigned supreme over my guild whether I was the aoe/cleave king as destro or the single target destroyer as affliction. There was not one encounter where locks were bad. All I've seen lately are Nerfs. All I have heard and read is that warlocks are being driven into the ground. With you being one of the top players I just want your perspective on our class.  I've played locks for 12 years and now that this amazing expac is coming out i feel like we are getting destroyed. I've actually been debating class changing from the class I love. Please let me know what you think.