Vengeance Demon Hunter 7.3

[Valks 2,375]

Just now, Lockybalboa said:

I have nothing to do with writing or maintaining the guide. So...telling me anything doesn't really do anything, I'm just a hardcore raider and a global mod that spends most of my time in the DH area.

Meant that I would pass the comment to you to handle, since I'm useless and don't know how to answer it, not passing it on as feedback. Error in wording, sorry!

[Lockybalboa 618]

1 hour ago, Blainie said:

Meant that I would pass the comment to you to handle, since I'm useless and don't know how to answer it, not passing it on as feedback. Error in wording, sorry!

Oh, okay. Well in that case then - Guest Etsunari is simply wrong. Crit stacking works fine in the content that we have right now, but it will quickly blow up in their face once they step into high mythic+ and mythic raiding.

Crit makes for a VERY bursty tanking style, although you can sort of make this work in a high damage environment it is going to lead to a LOT of dangerous moments and a very good number of those moments you simply won't survive. The ones you do survive will only be due to a very well timed heal on either your part or a healer's part.

It will be a *fun* playstyle, but healers will be taxed and stressed, you will die far more often than you should, and it will be simply a sub-par tanking method for anything harder than about Mythic+5 and up.

[Guest Etsunari]

On 20/09/2016 at 10:56 AM, Lockybalboa said:

Crit makes for a VERY bursty tanking style

Absolutly not. More I up my crit, less damages I do.

Following your logic, I just done some mythics. Some with food/Potion Crit/Haste oriented and others with full versa.

Surprise, numbers are numbers: on Crit/Haste mod my self-healing is 30% higher than in Versa mod. Not mentionning that survival CDs are up more frequently.

Remember that I haven't choose the line of traits that is recommended here. I runned on fire side (downside of the artifact). Maybe following the upper route, versa is more efficient.

[Lockybalboa 618]

28 minutes ago, Guest Etsunari said:

Following your logic, I just done some mythics. Some with food/Potion Crit/Haste oriented and others with full versa.

A little bit of food isn't going to swing your stats remotely enough. And again, like I said, crit is fine for most 5 man content but harder content like Mythic+ rank 5+ and mythic raiding is going to crush a crit build veng DH.

I also never said to stack versa, you can and it is a perfectly workable gearing method, but *I* never said to do so.

I also went the bottom path for my veng weapon. Charred Warblades are amazing.

[Guest Roi]

With the recent Mastery change (9/23 hotfix) does stat priority differ?

[Valks 2,375]

Generic comment being mass posted over the comments threads guys.

We are aware of the changes and our writers are working hard to update the guides to suit what has changed. Currently, there is a lot of work still to be done and it's unlikely that every guide will be up-to-date immediately. Expect a flood of updates over the coming days that will answer all of your questions about what is now best after X change, in time for the reset next week.

Thanks for your understanding and patience.

[Valks 2,375]

18 hours ago, Guest Roi said:

With the recent Mastery change (9/23 hotfix) does stat priority differ?

See above. Thanks!

[navybofus 0]

I'm continuing to follow the survivability stat priority with my personal weights. Stam > Agi > Vers > Haste >= Mastery > Crit. I'm not stacking all vers, just trying to keep decent values per weight except crit which is passively gained. I've weighted haste 0.5 > than Mastery due to the hotfix. So here's the before and after:

My Old Weights - Stamina = 15, Agility = 12, Versatility = 9, Haste = 7,   Mastery = 7, Crit = 4.5

My New Weights - Stamina = 15, Agility = 12, Versatility = 9, Haste = 7.5, Mastery = 7, Crit = 4.5

A short explanation for my weights: firstly, I just placed stam at 15 to start. Honestly stam may need adjusted due to it pushing iLvl as a priority, but for the rest of the stats I started with agility 12 and stepped down 1.5 from there using the survivabilty stat priority from the guide. Agility helps with everything a DH tank needs for self and raid survivability (attack power for threat and healing, and dodge). When I stepped down vers to 10.5 I almost immediately dropped it, and other sub-stats, down a bit more. Versatility helps a lot, as my healers are bored most of the time. Haste is great for more active mitigation, mastery buffs our active mitigation and crit allows for dodge, but gearing for it seemed to reduce my survivability for the loss of other stats. As I was explaining all of this I'm already rethinking the weights a bit more so iLvl isn't the priority, but I feel confident as a tank in Normal EN. Perhaps that will change when I start heroic EN this week.

As of now I haven't really found a reason to change my talents around, but that may change as I test this week (9/27).

Edited September 27, 2016 by navybofus
Weight explanation

[Valks 2,375]

8 minutes ago, navybofus said:

I'm continuing to follow the survivability stat priority with my personal weights.

What's the thought process/testing behind these weights? It helps to explain where these numbers come from for those that might want to use them.

[navybofus 0]

25 minutes ago, Blainie said:

What's the thought process/testing behind these weights? It helps to explain where these numbers come from for those that might want to use them.

Yes that makes sense, I kinda noxxic'd that post a bit ;) Sorry, I am fairly new to theory crafting so I mostly posted for feedback and comparisons. I updated my post with an explanation. I hope for some constructive criticism.

[Munkky 4]

As far as weights go, they generally aren't reliable for tanking as you may change up some stats/gear based on the fight. High single target fights, Haste/Mas may be better, i.e. Ursoc. Where as on more magic based fights with lower physical damage, Mastery becomes half useless as the DR won't help much, so Vers would push higher. Things like agility, don't actually give that much surv. Yes it helps with HPS, but that's really it. Stam would also be way too high.

I don't like too use weights so I can't fully help you with them. Also, the actually "weights" would be a lot smaller due to stats not giving amazing DR. The general rule I follow is: 

15+ ilvl > 10 ilvl >= (insert stat prio)

The 10 ilvl being best, unless its 10 ilvl in your worst stats compared too your best stats.

Note that thing like Trinkets and Rings/Neck don't apply the same, and you should follow the prio.

[Valks 2,375]

12 hours ago, navybofus said:

Yes that makes sense, I kinda noxxic'd that post a bit ;) Sorry, I am fairly new to theory crafting so I mostly posted for feedback and comparisons. I updated my post with an explanation. I hope for some constructive criticism.

I can't really add much to what Munkky has already said.

Weights as a tank are just so pliable, they can change literally from encounter to encounter depending on the class and fight. Also, you are trying to regulate your weights too much. For example, you are assuming that there is an equal difference in value between each stat. 

In reality, it's entirely possible that the weights only have .1 difference between them, or that they have completely different amounts between them. This is why stat weights are so annoying as a tank.

[Guest Silkwood]

Your DH tank guide is way off now. Fracture is not just a DPS talent, since the change to mastery I'd call it a VITAL part of survival. Right now we only have our Soul Carver with gives any GUARANTEED Lesser Soul Fragments, and this is what Fracture also does. Since the change to mastery we're going to rely alot more heavily on Soul Barrier with +4 Lesser Soul Fragments, if we are to survive in heavy melee encounters. Thus, Fracture has become a survival talent/ability.

Shear is way too unpredictable, and even talented, Immo. Aura doesnt give any guarantee for LSFs, .. 

However my main concern is this. When we use Soul Carver or Fracture, why is it the LSFs are not only "spawning" so slow, sometimes takes upto 5secs for them to appear, but also, what is their despawn-timer? Seems to be very short, and even clicking those two abilities in succession doesnt give me the LSFs I'm promised in the tooltip.

Anyway, if you want to tank now, successfully, and not get stressed, dont play a Vengance tank.. I cant see them getting any invites for raids after normal with this change to mastery. Healers really gotta be on their toes.

[Valks 2,375]

11 hours ago, Guest Silkwood said:

Your DH tank guide is way off now.

Hey there!

I've passed on your notes concerning Fracture. I assume there are other problems with the guide since it is way off, so please do let me know the other issues so that I can take a look and pass them on.

Thanks and looking forward to reading your feedback :)

[Guest Rework this guide!!!]

This guide needs to either be removed or entirely reworked. It is wrong on so many levels -

1. Stat Priority is wrong (our just outdated).

2. Artifact Power progression direction (wrong)

3. Rotations may be close, but there are more optimal build ups based on the AP Path you follow.

About the only thing that is somewhat close are the talents.

With the recent changes, Painbringer and Charred Blades should be dragons #1 and #2. These provide a more stable baseline to health and mitigation. Get Fueled by Pain later. You want to pick up all the healing and health you can muster. Defensive Spikes, Embrace the Pain, Empowered Souls, Will of the Illidari are all primary and need to be among the first in the toolkit.

By the time you hit up Fueled By Pain you will have spent around 26 points according to the path I should have used (but didn't and at >100,000k per Point I am not willing to refund for the grind to correct it).

The last three AP Talents to grab would be Shatter, Siphon, and Fiery Demise. While they are good and the agility is a boost it is not outweighed by the others against the Mastery nerf and our need for at least 7% haste to make Demon Spikes easier to manage.

Honestly I still think Mastery is the key, even after the buff. The problem is gear prioritization drops aren't easily aligned to our true secondary stats in any meaningful way. Until Nighthold releases we are literally piecing together gear from Mythic +, Mythic, and lucky legendary drops.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Valks 2,375]

On 9/29/2016 at 0:15 AM, Guest Silkwood said:

Your DH tank guide is way off now. Fracture is not just a DPS talent, since the change to mastery I'd call it a VITAL part of survival. Right now we only have our Soul Carver with gives any GUARANTEED Lesser Soul Fragments, and this is what Fracture also does. Since the change to mastery we're going to rely alot more heavily on Soul Barrier with +4 Lesser Soul Fragments, if we are to survive in heavy melee encounters. Thus, Fracture has become a survival talent/ability.

Shear is way too unpredictable, and even talented, Immo. Aura doesnt give any guarantee for LSFs, .. 

However my main concern is this. When we use Soul Carver or Fracture, why is it the LSFs are not only "spawning" so slow, sometimes takes upto 5secs for them to appear, but also, what is their despawn-timer? Seems to be very short, and even clicking those two abilities in succession doesnt give me the LSFs I'm promised in the tooltip.

Anyway, if you want to tank now, successfully, and not get stressed, dont play a Vengance tank.. I cant see them getting any invites for raids after normal with this change to mastery. Healers really gotta be on their toes.

OK, so, I consulted with the writer and reviewer, and here are a few points on your concerns:

• LSFs barely heal us for that much.
• Fracture requires 2 global cooldowns in order to be used, as well as being less healing than a Soul Cleave that uses 40 pain.
• You would need approximately 4 souls in order to actually beat the healing that you get from a Soul Cleave using 40 pain.
• In order to get those 4 souls, you would need 2 Fractures and a Soul Cleave/movement, which means 3 global cooldowns would be used.
• You're also going to be using 120 pain to fuel this set of actions.
• The reliance on LSFs that you seem to hope for isn't the reality; they are a bonus that we should be happy to have, but they haven't been a huge part of the toolkit since beta.
• Soul Carver will spawn 2 LSFs when used, as well as 1 every second, for 3 seconds after the cast.
• It takes 3 seconds to get the full 5 LSFs that you would hope for after SC.
• They will not register on your buffs until they have hit the ground, so that delay you are feeling is due to them still being in the air.
• The reviewer agrees that Vengeance is a harder tank to be on, but it's definitely not a "you can't play this" spec.
• There are Veng DHs that have cleared 7/7M, so it can be done.

[Valks 2,375]

6 hours ago, Guest Rework this guide!!! said:

This guide needs to either be removed or entirely reworked. It is wrong on so many levels -

Hi there! Sorry to hear that, but I'd love to see some maths/thought processes behind your discussion, rather than simply claiming X is wrong. It's a fairly big claim to say that a guide is so wrong it needs to be removed/reworked and then giving 0 proof of what you are claiming.

6 hours ago, Guest Rework this guide!!! said:

1. Stat Priority is wrong (our just outdated).

Until I can see some proof from you, unfortunately, this part is being ignored. The stat priority is up-to-date and checked constantly by our reviewer.

7 hours ago, Guest Rework this guide!!! said:

2. Artifact Power progression direction (wrong)

With the recent changes, Painbringer and Charred Blades should be dragons #1 and #2. These provide a more stable baseline to health and mitigation. Get Fueled by Pain later. You want to pick up all the healing and health you can muster. Defensive Spikes, Embrace the Pain, Empowered Souls, Will of the Illidari are all primary and need to be among the first in the toolkit.

By the time you hit up Fueled By Pain you will have spent around 26 points according to the path I should have used (but didn't and at >100,000k per Point I am not willing to refund for the grind to correct it).

The last three AP Talents to grab would be Shatter, Siphon, and Fiery Demise. While they are good and the agility is a boost it is not outweighed by the others against the Mastery nerf and our need for at least 7% haste to make Demon Spikes easier to manage.

Honestly I still think Mastery is the key, even after the buff. The problem is gear prioritization drops aren't easily aligned to our true secondary stats in any meaningful way. Until Nighthold releases we are literally piecing together gear from Mythic +, Mythic, and lucky legendary drops.

• Defensive Spikes is decent, it's not worth going for first though.
• I'm not quite sure what you are referring to with "Empowered Souls", please feel free to elaborate.
• Will of the Illidari sucks, since it's only 1% HP per point.
• To use Painbringer properly, you need a strong amount of SF generation. I won't go into this again, but please feel free to look at the comment above that explains why this is a problem.
• Also, you want to use Painbringer, yet you don't want to use the one trait (Shatter the Souls) that actually heavily increases the number of souls? I'm seeing a slight issue here, since SF generation is already annoying when using the trait.
• Charred Blades is better than Painbringer, but it still is worse than Fueled by Pain.
• I'm not sure where this 7% haste number is coming from. There is no cap that needs to be aimed for by Vengeance in Haste currently.
• Where are you seeing a buff to Mastery? Regardless, we have three different priorities that follow the required stats for different environments. It still works well in dungeons, it is bad in raids.

[MrGorun 0]

How about askmrrobot.com

Stat Weights 
Leech 7.12 
Armor 6.02 
Avoidance 5.36 
Movement Speed 3.2 
Stamina 2.53 
Versatility 2.04 
Mastery 1.98 
Agility 1.48 
Haste 1.4 
Critical Strike 1.08 

Edited October 7, 2016 by MrGorun

[Valks 2,375]

1 minute ago, MrGorun said:

How about askmrrobot.com

Stat Weights 
Leech 7.12 
Armor 6.02 
Avoidance 5.36 
Movement Speed 3.2 
Stamina 2.53 
Versatility 2.04 
Mastery 1.98 
Agility 1.48 
Haste 1.4 
Critical Strike 1.08 

I'm not sure what you mean by this?

The weights you have posted above imply that Movement Speed is more important for tanking than any primary or secondary stat, that Leech is 3.5 times more valuable than Versatility?

[MrGorun 0]

2 hours ago, Blainie said:

Leech is 3.5 times more valuable than Versatility?

Is that possibly? Maybe this is some mistake?

1% (400) Versatility grants a 1% increase damage, healing, and absorbs, and reduces the damage we take by 0.5%.
 

Leech 1% = 230 versatility?

[Munkky 4]

Don't trust AMR for stat weights. Simple. Follow the prio listed here.

[Wowguy123 0]

Well people, I have personally tested stats with all possible enchants/gems and I have concluded crit is the best. Not only does it improve parry, but the benefits of critically striking  opponents off any fire damage you deal significantly offers greater healing. The stacked bonus of demon spikes parry makes you literally invincible. So your stats should look like crit>mastery>vers>haste... this offers greater if not the best dps you can get+ the benifits of great heals (1) 15% off all fire damage / (2) maximized parry. Enough said, argue if you must, however I have tested. 

Edited October 9, 2016 by Wowguy123

[MrGorun 0]

On 09.10.2016 at 7:17 AM, Wowguy123 said:

Well people, I have personally tested stats...

Can you show your logs?

[Valks 2,375]

On 10/9/2016 at 5:17 AM, Wowguy123 said:

Enough said, argue if you must, however I have tested. 

I look forward to seeing proof of your testing, given that I could go into a Deadmines normal, stand in it with full Crit gear and then say I did a dungeon and took 0 damage. Until you provide proper proof of your testing, unfortunately, your comment doesn't really mean much.

Thanks anyway for taking the time to leave a comment.

[Guest Some Tank]

On 10/9/2016 at 0:17 AM, Wowguy123 said:

Well people, I have personally tested stats with all possible enchants/gems and I have concluded crit is the best. Not only does it improve parry, but the benefits of critically striking  opponents off any fire damage you deal significantly offers greater healing. The stacked bonus of demon spikes parry makes you literally invincible. So your stats should look like crit>mastery>vers>haste... this offers greater if not the best dps you can get+ the benifits of great heals (1) 15% off all fire damage / (2) maximized parry. Enough said, argue if you must, however I have tested. 

You offer a reasonable explanation of why you say Crit is best and you say you've tested. AWESOME. Can you elaborate on how you tested so we can reproduce or analyze your results. Now we need to actually dig into the numbers to see what's happening why do your tests and previous tests show different results? So if you could explain your methods or post some logs to demonstrate how you came to this stat priority. Hey Demon Spikes making you literally Invincible. Sign me up.