Vengeance Demon Hunter 7.3

[Vlad 411]

  On 8/29/2016 at 4:18 PM, Guest HobbitTank said:

This guide should be more specific with its claims. Why is it that Soul Barrier is completely undesirable right now? Last Resort is very powerful, but doesn't keep you alive for very long if you just die again from a big hit. Soul Barrier seems to be the best choice when you don't have your 4-set bonus and decent gear, but this guide simply neglects it and doesn't explain why. 

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The explanation is right there, namely that it is undertuned. There is no way you will die after Last Resort procs assuming that there are healers present and you can use your abilities to keep yourself alive.

If Soul Barrier becomes worth taking, we're going to update the guide.

[Guest cherry]

Level 106 middle talent is wrong it is "Fel Eruption" now.

[Guest VengeanceDemonHunter]

Any word on the rotation priority of Fracture and Fel Devastation if we've taken those talents? If I want to maximize DPS, is it even worth using Pain on those talents instead of Soul Cleave?

[Guest Thordelar]

Although it's already recommended in the guide, surely Felblade at least provides some vicarious survivability by virtue of the fact that it generates pain?

Over the course of a boss fight in particular, the pain generation it provides can be pretty significant. 

[Guest Talents]

in your tear 3 and tear 5 you have no survivabilety from it but on your artifackt weapon you have a skill that converts 15% of your fire dameg to healing so wodent it be surviaval to heal your self from the sigile of flame?

[Guest flow0284]

It looks like that there was an mistake with the consumeables. The Flask of the Countless Armies  grants 1.300 strength. DH needs Agility or am I false? ;)

[Vlad 411]

  On 9/2/2016 at 3:40 PM, Guest flow0284 said:

It looks like that there was an mistake with the consumeables. The Flask of the Countless Armies  grants 1.300 strength. DH needs Agility or am I false? ;)

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Thanks for noticing! I've fixed this.

  On 9/2/2016 at 12:53 PM, Guest Talents said:

in your tear 3 and tear 5 you have no survivabilety from it but on your artifackt weapon you have a skill that converts 15% of your fire dameg to healing so wodent it be surviaval to heal your self from the sigile of flame?

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Well, that's technically true. But honestly, the healing amount isn't significant enough, I think, to be mentioning it everywhere where anything deals Fire damage. I'll add something to the rotation page about Charred Warblades, though. Thanks for the comment.

  On 9/2/2016 at 12:17 PM, Guest Thordelar said:

Although it's already recommended in the guide, surely Felblade at least provides some vicarious survivability by virtue of the fact that it generates pain?

Over the course of a boss fight in particular, the pain generation it provides can be pretty significant. 

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You are very correct about this. I will make a mention. Thank you!

  On 9/1/2016 at 6:31 PM, Guest VengeanceDemonHunter said:

Any word on the rotation priority of Fracture and Fel Devastation if we've taken those talents? If I want to maximize DPS, is it even worth using Pain on those talents instead of Soul Cleave?

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Fracture is not worth using for survivability and you just it when you have spare Pain and want to do DPS. Fel Devastation you use on cooldown. I'm going to add both to the rotation, thank you!

  On 8/31/2016 at 7:08 AM, Guest cherry said:

Level 106 middle talent is wrong it is "Fel Eruption" now.

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That's only the case for Havoc. As far as I can tell, the Vengeance talents are correct :)

[Guest DemonHunter]

Soul barrier is better than you give it credit for if you aim to consume as many soul shards as possible. I say this because I have noticed that you can only float 5 soul/lesser soul fragments. Thus, unless you have an incompetent healer, you should be pretty high up there and Soul barrier allows you to essentially overheal when you are near full health and see damage incoming.  Considering you still get the health from shattering soul fragments. Thus it is a 300k + 50k per soul fragment shield with a 50k per lesser soul fragment you consume or 500k per soul fragment ability every 30 seconds. And that for the same cost you only get 100k in comparison (this is comparing my stats post math cause math)

[Redplague 0]

  On 9/6/2016 at 11:45 PM, Guest DemonHunter said:

Soul barrier is better than you give it credit for if you aim to consume as many soul shards as possible. I say this because I have noticed that you can only float 5 soul/lesser soul fragments. Thus, unless you have an incompetent healer, you should be pretty high up there and Soul barrier allows you to essentially overheal when you are near full health and see damage incoming.  Considering you still get the health from shattering soul fragments. Thus it is a 300k + 50k per soul fragment shield with a 50k per lesser soul fragment you consume or 500k per soul fragment ability every 30 seconds. And that for the same cost you only get 100k in comparison (this is comparing my stats post math cause math)

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I am in agreement. I find it useful.
 I use 1 fracture (generates 2 fragments) and Immolation Aura to always have 3+ fragments around me when I use Soul Barrier. With chances for extra fragments from Shear I absorb enough damage  to always heal myself to full especially with Charred Warblades. ( Plus you heal from just using Soul Barrier that consumes the fragments.)
I very rarely even need to use my metamorphosis unless the healer is incapacitated and by using fracture to generate soul fragments I manage my health accordingly.

 I always used Fel Eruption as to interrupt/stun abilities that can't be by consume magic but after reading this guide i'll be switching to felblade. 
I did go for Charred Warblades but I want to try out Fueled by Pain and Soul Rending as it sounds like a great combo. I am making my way to Fueled right now.

[Guest info]

On the class overview it says that vengeance demon hunters mitigate "magic" damage frequently. If you are talking about Demon Spikes, that's physical damage only. The only real magic mitigation vengeance has is Fiery Brand on a 1 minute cooldown. Of course, this is also assuming you don't have the Painbringer passive from your artifact weapon.

Maybe this just needs to be updated for current use, but it's just incorrect information for those looking into the class.

[TeamC 6]

  On 9/8/2016 at 11:31 PM, Guest info said:

On the class overview it says that vengeance demon hunters mitigate "magic" damage frequently. If you are talking about Demon Spikes, that's physical damage only. The only real magic mitigation vengeance has is Fiery Brand on a 1 minute cooldown. Of course, this is also assuming you don't have the Painbringer passive from your artifact weapon.

Maybe this just needs to be updated for current use, but it's just incorrect information for those looking into the class.

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Empowered Wards is 30sec cool down for 30% magic damage reduction.

[Valks 2,375]

  On 9/8/2016 at 11:31 PM, Guest info said:

On the class overview it says that vengeance demon hunters mitigate "magic" damage frequently. If you are talking about Demon Spikes, that's physical damage only. The only real magic mitigation vengeance has is Fiery Brand on a 1 minute cooldown. Of course, this is also assuming you don't have the Painbringer passive from your artifact weapon.

Maybe this just needs to be updated for current use, but it's just incorrect information for those looking into the class.

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As was stated above by TeamC, in our Active Mitigation section we detail the magic damage reduction.

  Quote

As a Vengeance Demon Hunter, you have 4 active mitigation abilities:  Soul Cleave,  Demon Spikes,  Fiery Brand, and  Empower Wards. We will look at them very briefly here before going into more detail later on in the guide.

•  Soul Cleave should be used whenever you require additional healing.
•  Demon Spikes should be used frequently, even simply against auto-attacks. Always keep at least one of its charges rolling.
•  Empower Wards should be used before you take significant magic damage.
•  Fiery Brand should be placed on the target when you anticipate that they will deal high damage to you, or when you simply want to reduce the damage you take.

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Please make sure to read the guide before commenting. Thanks!

[Guest Aax]

I don't see why you underrate Soul Barrier. While Last Resort is a great save, I believe that it triggers only when something went innately wrong already. Realistically, for me I've seen it trigger mostly in group-wipe situations, and true, it sometimes let me kill the remaining mobs by myself.

But in a good group or raid? You will rarely see it. On the other hand, Soul Barrier is a great survivability talent, which provides up to a million shield/heal. You basically spend 30 pain, and get 

1) 450k shield flat

2) Which can't fall below 60k, so basically it absorbs at least 60k from all attacks for 8 seconds

3) and on top of that you get double-benefit from your soul fragments, because not only they heal you, they grant you equal amount of shield as well.

Bottomline is, during the course of the fight is provides tenfold the benefit of Last Resort. Yea, you mention that it's better to use pain for DPS Soul Cleave/Fracture, but is it? If I look at not even 1 cast of Cleave and then look at the amount I can absorb for that same pain - the DPS gain seems very underwhelming if you ask me. Especially if you don't use fracture and are tanking 1 mob - cleave is REALLY low DPS in these circumstances, and you will trade a huge absorb for that? Well, meh, I disagree.

[Guest Aax]

  Quote

As a Vengeance Demon Hunter, you have 4 active mitigation abilities:  Soul Cleave,  Demon Spikes,  Fiery Brand, and  Empower Wards. We will look at them very briefly here before going into more detail later on in the guide.

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By the way, you mistake the terms "Protective Cooldowns" here with "Active mitigation". Among those listed, only Demon Spikes is an active mitigation cooldown.

 

Active mitigation are abilities that deal with specific boss mechanics, for example prevent debuff application from special boss abilities. Only Demon Spikes does such thing. The rest are merely protective cooldowns that allow you to prevent some damage but do NOT deal with boss mechanics.

[Valks 2,375]

  On 9/13/2016 at 8:10 AM, Guest Aax said:

But in a good group or raid? You will rarely see it.

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A group can be as good as you wish, this does not change the fact that in progression you WILL die. It's a simple fact of raiding that tanks will die during progression, regardless of whose fault it may be.

[Vortexan 0]

  On 8/2/2016 at 11:23 PM, Guest Hue said:

Your stat priority posted is completely wrong and not viable for high m+ or raiding situations. Versa > Mastery > crit > haste  is significantly stronger.

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Hi ... Versa better then Mastery xD High five ... Mastery > Versa i guess dmg reduce from 60% is a little bit better as 4-5% damage and reduce and mastery give u AP ...

[Guest Feed the Demon (104)]

Talent 104 - Feed the Demon does not appear to be working.  My default recharge time on Demon Spikes is 13.3 seconds.  Consuming soul fragments does not appear to change the recharge time whether I consume them manually or use Soul Cleave.  Is this perhaps a bug on WoW's part or is there perhaps some other cooldown timer that I am unaware of?

 

If perhaps this is not working as intended then your guide may wish to be updated with a different choice.

[webster259 0]

  On 9/13/2016 at 6:21 PM, Guest Aax said:

By the way, you mistake the terms "Protective Cooldowns" here with "Active mitigation". Among those listed, only Demon Spikes is an active mitigation cooldown.

 

Active mitigation are abilities that deal with specific boss mechanics, for example prevent debuff application from special boss abilities. Only Demon Spikes does such thing. The rest are merely protective cooldowns that allow you to prevent some damage but do NOT deal with boss mechanics.

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This is not correct.  Active mitigation does not refer to dealing with specific boss mechanics.  Active mitigation means that the player has to play an active role in mitigating the damage and cannot let a passive proc or ability do it for them.  The cooldowns that are listed are correctly referred to as active mitigation because you need to actually use them, or be active in your playstyle, in order to mitigate damage.  There's an article on wowpedia detailing active mitigation, check it out.

[Lockybalboa 618]

  On 9/13/2016 at 6:21 PM, Guest Aax said:

By the way, you mistake the terms "Protective Cooldowns" here with "Active mitigation". Among those listed, only Demon Spikes is an active mitigation cooldown.

 

Active mitigation are abilities that deal with specific boss mechanics, for example prevent debuff application from special boss abilities. Only Demon Spikes does such thing. The rest are merely protective cooldowns that allow you to prevent some damage but do NOT deal with boss mechanics.

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Wrong.

  On 9/14/2016 at 10:18 PM, webster259 said:

Active mitigation does not refer to dealing with specific boss mechanics.  Active mitigation means that the player has to play an active role in mitigating the damage and cannot let a passive proc or ability do it for them.  The cooldowns that are listed are correctly referred to as active mitigation because you need to actually use them, or be active in your playstyle, in order to mitigate damage.  There's an article on wowpedia detailing active mitigation, check it out.

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Correct.

[webster259 0]

I've got a question about the stat priority.  I completely understand the strength of Versatility especially with a self healing class like DH.  However, and I understand that these guys aren't DH mains but are very, very good tanks in general in their own respect, I heard Slootbag and Sco both championing haste as the #1 secondary stat with versatility next.  Have you guys heard anything similar to this or have an opinion on it?  Thanks

[Valks 2,375]

  On 9/14/2016 at 4:28 PM, Vortexan said:

Hi ... Versa better then Mastery xD High five ... Mastery > Versa i guess dmg reduce from 60% is a little bit better as 4-5% damage and reduce and mastery give u AP ...

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I'm sure that you have no problems reading, but I'll copy and paste the guide into this comment just for you to double check.

1.1. Survivability

1. Agility;
2. Versatility;
3. Haste >= Mastery;
4. Critical Strike.

1.2. Damage Output

1. Agility;
2. Mastery = Critical Strike >= Versatility >= Haste.

1.3. Dungeons

1. Agility;
2. Mastery;
3. Critical Strike;
4. Versatility;
5. Haste.

There are 3 different gearing strats here. For surv, Vers > Mast is due to Vers boosting damage reduction and healing. On a purely mathematical basis, Versatility is the best stat for survivability. It's boring as hell, sure, but the best.

[Valks 2,375]

  On 9/14/2016 at 10:39 PM, webster259 said:

I've got a question about the stat priority.  I completely understand the strength of Versatility especially with a self healing class like DH.  However, and I understand that these guys aren't DH mains but are very, very good tanks in general in their own respect, I heard Slootbag and Sco both championing haste as the #1 secondary stat with versatility next.  Have you guys heard anything similar to this or have an opinion on it?  Thanks

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I imagine this is due to Versatility changing absolutely nothing about the way the class plays, so it's not exactly interactive. As I said above, Versa is boring as hell, but the best stat to survive.

[Guest Etsunari]

Nice theorycraft, but...

I'm playing Vengeance since alpha, with all the evolutions until live version, doing Mythics on live and Heroic Raids testings on beta.

You are eyes on wowhead tooltips but ingame numbers aren't the same. My priorities are completly others than the ones you mention.

Agi > Crit > Haste > Mastery>=Versa.

All my CDs are now very short, less than 20s for Empowered Wards, 10 for Immolation Aura. or my spikes. With CDs up all the time, with high "burning", my self-heal is much higher than versa, much more.

The same for the priority of the traits. The most important (for me) is to catch the Charred Warblades. More fire, more self-heal.

Associated with the talents Agonizing Flames and Burning Alive, Feed the Demon+Fire Sigil... more more fire, more more self-heal.

On bad random hits when I'm on my last points of life, Fel Devastation puts me full life in seconds. Again fire = self-heal = survivability.

I let think about it, but I think (and tested) the main purpose of a DH is to burn. That's our main stat and the way to achieve it, it's to mix crit and haste not the boring versa/mastery.

[Valks 2,375]

  On 9/19/2016 at 3:39 PM, Guest Etsunari said:

the boring versa/mastery.

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This right here has just highlighted a big part of what you are saying.

You find the way that we suggest to play boring, so you are trying to make another way work. Just because something is boring, does not mean it is bad.

As for the analysis, I'll pass it on to @Lockybalboa since I do not play a Veng DH.

[Lockybalboa 618]

  On 9/20/2016 at 5:37 AM, Blainie said:

As for the analysis, I'll pass it on to @Lockybalboa since I do not play a Veng DH.

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I have nothing to do with writing or maintaining the guide. So...telling me anything doesn't really do anything, I'm just a hardcore raider and a global mod that spends most of my time in the DH area.

You can find my thoughts on tanking stat prio here: