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Vengeance Demon Hunter 7.3

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Guest Mafoz

@Blainie, Could you please share your stat weights including the minor stats, I would like to throw them into AMR! Thank you

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Guest Bunbohue

How would you value the Razor Spike and Feed the Demon talents once the legendary ring (15% leech on demon spikes) is equipped. Do you think the 20% bonus dmg is justifiable over the movement speed and extra healing from immo''s bonus dmg from Agonizing Flame?

I've been trying out Razor Spikes for mythic+ runs and I'm liking it a lot. Especially the daze is nice for kiting harder hitting trash. But I'm reluctant to try out feed the demons as I'm liking the leech from Soul Rending a lot.  

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17 hours ago, Guest Mafoz said:

@Blainie, Could you please share your stat weights including the minor stats, I would like to throw them into AMR! Thank you

I'm not actually a DH player, so I'm not sure I can help with his one since I don't have them for myself personally!

Perhaps @Munkky could help with this, not sure if he has any to-hand.

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4 hours ago, Guest Bunbohue said:

How would you value the Razor Spike and Feed the Demon talents once the legendary ring (15% leech on demon spikes) is equipped. Do you think the 20% bonus dmg is justifiable over the movement speed and extra healing from immo''s bonus dmg from Agonizing Flame?

I've been trying out Razor Spikes for mythic+ runs and I'm liking it a lot. Especially the daze is nice for kiting harder hitting trash. But I'm reluctant to try out feed the demons as I'm liking the leech from Soul Rending a lot.  

Feed the Demon is still worse than Soul Rending, even with the legendary. I'm not sure on the Razor Spike one, but I imagine it will depend on what content you are doing and what you require for it. If it works for you, keep up with it!

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I noticed in the Builds and Talents section the Tier 4 Talent part for Soul Rending is missing some, perhaps much needed, info. With Soul Rending and the Fueled by Pain trait, you gain 50% Leech for the 5 seconds the artifacts trait is active.

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On 08.10.2016 at 9:40 PM, Munkky said:

Don't trust AMR for stat weights. Simple. Follow the prio listed here.

I don't. But i can understand, how much useful the minor stats and what is prio list?

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19 hours ago, TimeDrawsNigh said:

I noticed in the Builds and Talents section the Tier 4 Talent part for Soul Rending is missing some, perhaps much needed, info. With Soul Rending and the Fueled by Pain trait, you gain 50% Leech for the 5 seconds the artifacts trait is active.

I'm not sure what information you feel is missing. The talent is recommended already and this info about FbP doesn't change anything in the rotation or choice of talents.

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On 10/12/2016 at 8:53 AM, MrGorun said:

I don't. But i can understand, how much useful the minor stats and what is prio list?

Minor stats are barely worth anything except Leech. They're not worth adding to a priority because they simply aren't worth it and are completely impossible to itemize for.

The priority is in the guide:

https://www.icy-veins.com/wow/vengeance-demon-hunter-pve-tank-stat-priority

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Mhm not sure, when I’ve simulated mine for TMI i used the following options:

Fight Style Patchwerk
Player Skill Good
Target Type TMI Standard Boss
TMI Standard Boss T19H
Scale over TMI

Which leads to the following stats weight:

  Armor BonusArmor Sta Vers Haste Leech Agi AP Crit Mastery
Scale Factor -16.21 -7.24 -3.08 -2.02 -1.68 -1.46 -1.42 -1.19 -1.17 -1.04
Normalized 5.26 2.35 1.00 0.66 0.54 0.47 0.46 0.39 0.38 0.34
Scale Detlas +/-569 +/-569 +/-569 +/-569 +/-569 +/-569 +/-569 +/-569 +/-569 +/-569
Error 0.13 0.13 0.13 0.13 0.13 0.13 0.13 0.13 0.13 0.13

 

Ranking:  Armor > BonusArmor > Sta > Vers > Haste > Leech ~= Agi > AP ~= Crit ~= Mastery

 

Except that agility is only in the mid of the pack the stats are like I’ve expected them to be for survivability.

Edited by Erelaun

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I tried simming, but I'm not really sure how to interpret the numbers I get.

Can anyone tell how to read these numbers? Does normalized all being 0 mean my stats are more or less bang on?

 

 

dtps.PNG

Edited by Bunbohue
changed picture

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For advice with simulating yourself, can you please make threads in the Demon Hunter forum. This thread is related to the guide, rather than a general DH discussion thread.

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On 10/12/2016 at 7:46 PM, Zigbert said:

Is it possible to get stat wights on DH Vengeance for Dungions

You'll need a custom sim on SimCraft to obtain these. 

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Guest Kish

It should be mentioned that Soul Barrier is incredibly valuable on fights such as Cenarius where active mitigation is necessary, something that DHs lack.

There's very few things a Demon Hunter can do to help mitigate Spear of Nightmare, but Soul Barrier can help massively mitigate it. Our DH tank switched to this talent, and it made a WORLD of difference.

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On 10/21/2016 at 3:41 AM, Guest Kish said:

It should be mentioned that Soul Barrier is incredibly valuable on fights such as Cenarius where active mitigation is necessary, something that DHs lack.

There's very few things a Demon Hunter can do to help mitigate Spear of Nightmare, but Soul Barrier can help massively mitigate it. Our DH tank switched to this talent, and it made a WORLD of difference.

I'll pass this on, thanks!

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Guest Evulray

In the BiS section the Darkmoon Card is ranked as our best trinket, and in the pre-raid section it's described as "also a decent armor trinket". Is it really our best choice? And are current trinkets so bad that we need to obtain ilvl 675 trinkets? I've got a 880 Grotesque Statue and a 865 Goblet of Nightmarish Ichor, and I'm curious if I should really try to obtain the recently recommended trinkets.

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16 hours ago, Guest Evulray said:

In the BiS section the Darkmoon Card is ranked as our best trinket, and in the pre-raid section it's described as "also a decent armor trinket". Is it really our best choice? And are current trinkets so bad that we need to obtain ilvl 675 trinkets? I've got a 880 Grotesque Statue and a 865 Goblet of Nightmarish Ichor, and I'm curious if I should really try to obtain the recently recommended trinkets.

One looks more updated than the other. Which do you think is more reliable?

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Guest Nara

A log from Normal Helya last night, running Soul Barrier with some caveats:

  1. My trinkets are garbage.
  2. I do not have the Legendary Ring for extra healing.
  3. I forgot to switch to FoS after the M+ I had previously done.
  4. I only have 1% Leech.

Of specific interest should be the graphs for 'Damage Taken -> External Healing Required' and 'Healing -> Self Absorbs'
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/2qWBc93ANay87nF4#fight=9&type=healing

That's an insane amount of pressure that was taken off of my healers that could be instead pushed over to the rest of the raid.  In our Heroic Odyn attempts, specifically phase 1, our paladin healer was able to place his beacon on me, which ended up being more than enough healing on top of my self-healing.

Now if I take LR instead of Soul Barrier I might have been fine without the extra healing, but my health would have taken more spikes and therefore caused more stress on the healers, potentially causing someone else to die.

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On 11/10/2016 at 6:02 PM, Guest Nara said:

Now if I take LR instead of Soul Barrier I might have been fine without the extra healing, but my health would have taken more spikes and therefore caused more stress on the healers, potentially causing someone else to die.

I imagine @Munkky would have more thoughts on it than me, so just tagging him to take a look.

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On 11/10/2016 at 1:02 PM, Guest Nara said:

A log from Normal Helya last night, running Soul Barrier with some caveats:

  1. My trinkets are garbage.
  2. I do not have the Legendary Ring for extra healing.
  3. I forgot to switch to FoS after the M+ I had previously done.
  4. I only have 1% Leech.

Of specific interest should be the graphs for 'Damage Taken -> External Healing Required' and 'Healing -> Self Absorbs'
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/2qWBc93ANay87nF4#fight=9&type=healing

That's an insane amount of pressure that was taken off of my healers that could be instead pushed over to the rest of the raid.  In our Heroic Odyn attempts, specifically phase 1, our paladin healer was able to place his beacon on me, which ended up being more than enough healing on top of my self-healing.

Now if I take LR instead of Soul Barrier I might have been fine without the extra healing, but my health would have taken more spikes and therefore caused more stress on the healers, potentially causing someone else to die.

So I did some math on just that Helya log. I also ran it through Chechmywow.com so that I didn't have to do more math. You had very low Demon Spikes uptime, missed a few Fiery Brands/Fel Devastation/Immolation Aura, I can't tell it exactly on logs, but it looks like you missed at least some Felblade casts. Had you used the pain from Soul Barrier on Demon Spikes and Soul Cleave, you would have reduced about 2/3 of the damage that Soul Cleave absorbed, via Demon Spikes, and Soul Cleave would have healed for about 1.4m. Yes it would have been about 3.5m lower than Soul Barrier, but that is negligible in the grand scheme of things. On top of properly using your other abilities, you would have reduced even more without Soul Barrier than with it on that run. 

Yes Soul Barrier looks better in that regard than Last Resort, because Last Resort isn't preventative, it's reactive in nature. However to truly master it, you have to use it proactively. Soul Barrier will always look better for healing effectiveness/damage taken/TMI/Krsi etc. because it is an absorb compared to a cheat death.

I have Soul Barrier listed as something that can be used in some situations and I have stated on more than one occasion that it isn't bad, it just competes with Last Resort. Also the harder the content you are doing, the better Last Resort becomes over Soul Barrier.

 

Checkmywow.com for reference

http://www.checkmywow.com/reports/2qWBc93ANay87nF4/151917605/9?tab=basic

Edited by Munkky
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Just noticed something.

 

I read the guide, and I saw that every time you link metamorphosis, you linked havoc DH's metamorphosis, not vengeance DH's metamorphosis, however the written description in the guide is correct. If the right meta spell was linked it would be more accurate to beginners.

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On 11/14/2016 at 11:15 PM, Malyiaa said:

Just noticed something.

 

I read the guide, and I saw that every time you link metamorphosis, you linked havoc DH's metamorphosis, not vengeance DH's metamorphosis, however the written description in the guide is correct. If the right meta spell was linked it would be more accurate to beginners.

Will pass this on, thanks!

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Guest Oddtobias

Are the talent recommendations viable for mythic+ in 7.1?

 

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On 11/14/2016 at 11:41 AM, Munkky said:

So I did some math on just that Helya log. I also ran it through Chechmywow.com so that I didn't have to do more math. You had very low Demon Spikes uptime, missed a few Fiery Brands/Fel Devastation/Immolation Aura, I can't tell it exactly on logs, but it looks like you missed at least some Felblade casts. Had you used the pain from Soul Barrier on Demon Spikes and Soul Cleave, you would have reduced about 2/3 of the damage that Soul Cleave absorbed, via Demon Spikes, and Soul Cleave would have healed for about 1.4m. Yes it would have been about 3.5m lower than Soul Barrier, but that is negligible in the grand scheme of things. On top of properly using your other abilities, you would have reduced even more without Soul Barrier than with it on that run. 

Yes Soul Barrier looks better in that regard than Last Resort, because Last Resort isn't preventative, it's reactive in nature. However to truly master it, you have to use it proactively. Soul Barrier will always look better for healing effectiveness/damage taken/TMI/Krsi etc. because it is an absorb compared to a cheat death.

I have Soul Barrier listed as something that can be used in some situations and I have stated on more than one occasion that it isn't bad, it just competes with Last Resort. Also the harder the content you are doing, the better Last Resort becomes over Soul Barrier.

 

Checkmywow.com for reference

http://www.checkmywow.com/reports/2qWBc93ANay87nF4/151917605/9?tab=basic

My assertion was that Soul Barrier was a better choice on that encounter than Last Resort (I provided a detailed description of the why).  I provided a log to support that claim.  Your rebuttal to my claim was to attack my play for not being literally perfect, though even checkmylogs shows that it was damn-near perfect.  This is an ad-hominem attack.  It doesn't do much to help defend your assertion.

Let's keep this in perspective for a moment: Your LogsYour Armory;  Your Progress.  Your only Heroic raid was being carried in your off spec.  You haven't even completed a normal raid.  Your highest M+ was a +2 that you failed to meet the timer on.  You haven't even seen the fight you're commenting on.  Do not patronize other people by saying things like 'If you did harder content, Last Resort would be better.'  When someone is speaking from experience and providing logs and examples, try looking at the data and forming an opinion before attacking them.

So let's go through your post.

On Demon Spikes/Fiery Brand/Fel Dev/Empower Wards usage.  Your math (and that of checkmywow.com) is based on target dummies.  Raid bosses and encounters have down time, tank swaps, and transitional phases.  Especially with the first three abilities, they're not being used exactly on cooldown because I'm not going to waste them when the boss is attacking someone else and/or I don't need them.  As you say, that's a waste of pain and resources. More-to-the-point: The effectiveness of Soul Barrier in comparison to Last Resort has absolutely nothing to do with Demon Spikes, Fiery Brand, Fel Devastation, Immolation Aura or Empower Wards.

Take numbers out of the points you've made, and you're left with, 'If you played your character to pure perfection in every way, and had the foresight to know exactly when the best time to use every defensive cooldown is without saving them until they are absolutely necessary, the choice of the last talent tier would not have mattered.'  I can use that exact argument to say that Last Resort is a bad choice.  This is a comparison between two talents.  You need to assess the gains and losses between those two talent choices.

So the differences in the fight that I linked: Soul Barrier assisted in keeping me in a safe position which allowed healers to heal someone else, save mana, or DPS.  At best, Last Resort could have been force-activated three times to give me 2-3 extra Soul Cleaves every 3 minutes, but throwing away the cheat death mechanic OR just served as some blanket passive ability that went unused.

Please compare the two talent choices.  Back up your findings.  Use numbers, compare logs.  On the guide, and everywhere else I've seen you note it, you've made it very clear that you simply like Last Resort better.  You are starting with 'Last Resort is better' and going from there.  Stop.  Start with 'Which choice provides more benefit to the group?'

Edited by Narabug

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