Legion and DH tank viability

[cluelost 0]

Greetings; my first post!

 

Currently I am the Main Tank, or one of, for our core raiding team. We are focused on 'hardcore' progression and are very centric around composition and viability. 

I currently tank on a Warrior. Having tried out DH since the early-access to the class with the preorder I have somewhat fell in love with the DH and the Vengeance spec. I am vastly outperforming my much more geared warrior in most aspects and only have access to two talents(!). With these coupled together it has made me consider the switch to V-DH as my main spec for Legion and being the main tank for our guild on it however, I am concerned for its viability, survivability and if it'll suit the meta. My Warrior is the safe choice - tried and tested across multiple expansions there is no concern as to whether this class will perform well at 110 as a tank, it will; it goes without saying.

Essentially, I am looking for an informed response of people who have tried Vengeance at 100-110 and people's thoughts on if it's a viable choice to have as a main tank for a hardcore raiding guild. Plunging in to the abyss with a sub-par class not tuned well enough or with poor mitigation for example will hinder the guild and ultimately myself. Is there enough mitigation, self healing  and weapons in their arsenal? Self-healing is relatively similar to DK's yet they do not apply any bubble/mitigation off of the back of it - is this a concern or does the permanent uptime of Demon Spikes thanks to talents and the [4] act in that gap? These are the kinds of concerns I have.

 

Thanks for reading I look forward to responses.

 

TL;DR: Is Vengeance a viable main tank for hardcore raiding in Legion?

[Lockybalboa 618]

What is your level of hardcore? Are you aiming to finish all mythic content or to finish it in the top X US/EU/World?

I've tanked at the top US/world level and if you're looking to go maximum hard - you need the safe pick. Not only is it a known value, but you know that class inside and out and that counts for a lot if you're going for the best of the best.

 

If your goal of "hardcore" though is to be ~100-250US then you have a bit more wiggle room. Personally, and from what I have heard from other sources, V-DH is a little weak at 110 in the survivability department. However, this does not totally prevent you from maining it and using it as a main tank, it just makes it a bit more problematic and more demanding on you as a player. That said I would be rather shocked if we didn't see some DH buffs before mythic raids come out, both in QOL for Havoc and better survivability numbers for Vengeance.

 

If you are going for hardcore then I assume you're going to have a main and a high level alt, unless you NEED that alt to be something to fit raid comp then you might want to just make the DH a main alt. Gear and get both ready and make the call once you are done with normals/heroics and are ready for mythics. Do it right and you could equally gear them and be ready on both by the time mythic is released, but doing so will be very time consuming. Even with the three weeks we have before raids come out doing two toons to the same level of readiness is hard.

[cluelost 0]

Thank you very for your feedback and how quickly you've responded. Through this and the guide's comments on the spec itself I'm going to stick with warrior. Whilst i'm not top world/us/eu level we are competing respectably and think it's the best choice going forward. I will be taking your advice and making it an alt I gear as closely as possible after my Warrior is in the best possible position and working it in to our main raids and eventually testing their measurable viability for our raid team.

Thank you, sincerely.

[Lockybalboa 618]

Anytime mate, glad I could help.

[TeamC 6]

I'm sorry to butt into this particular conversation, but since it's discussing what I regard as a somewhat nebulous quality that is "viability" can you elaborate just a bit on what viability means for Demon Hunters in Legion raiding?

Is it pretty much "Don't bring these ever!" or more of the idea that it takes a certain amount of work to keep Bears, Warriors, Paladins alive vs. a higher amount of work to keep DHs alive?

Reason I ask is that I MT for a guild on a small pop server that has gotten the Ahead of the Curve achievements well before they go away, but due to lack of sheer player numbers have never made much of a Mythic push, and I'm considering swapping to DH as my main but all the negative feedback floating around is making me constantly second guess that decision. Within the realm of possibility of gear available to me I try to min/max, so I don't like to just "get by". or do anything half-assed Does this viability or lack thereof really only come into play at the bleeding edge Mythic level, or is DH in such a bad state right now that they're largely lacking at all tiers of content?

[demonardvark 556]

4 hours ago, TeamC said:

I'm sorry to butt into this particular conversation, but since it's discussing what I regard as a somewhat nebulous quality that is "viability" can you elaborate just a bit on what viability means for Demon Hunters in Legion raiding?

Is it pretty much "Don't bring these ever!" or more of the idea that it takes a certain amount of work to keep Bears, Warriors, Paladins alive vs. a higher amount of work to keep DHs alive?

Reason I ask is that I MT for a guild on a small pop server that has gotten the Ahead of the Curve achievements well before they go away, but due to lack of sheer player numbers have never made much of a Mythic push, and I'm considering swapping to DH as my main but all the negative feedback floating around is making me constantly second guess that decision. Within the realm of possibility of gear available to me I try to min/max, so I don't like to just "get by". or do anything half-assed Does this viability or lack thereof really only come into play at the bleeding edge Mythic level, or is DH in such a bad state right now that they're largely lacking at all tiers of content?

So, imma be that guy. DH fundamentally is garbage right now. It's a crippled class without access to most its talents. DPS you have no self healing and are rather squishy. Tanking, you have a limited toolkit as well. So, we must remember its considered early access right now, ie, not really complete. 

Now, once we get into legion. DPS wise its fine but it still does lack a bit of self preservation ability at 110. Tanking is sort of middle of the pack for raiding. Where Vengeance really really shines however is mythic + dungeons. It excels in pushing these because of its AOE fears and slows. Now mythic + gets close to equivalent raid gear, from my understanding its basically an alternate way to reach end game gear. So, vengeance tanks will be in very high demand. As far as havoc tuning will determine everything, they do good dps and have good mobility. 

So right now DH is basically an incomplete class. Hence the negative feedback. You just don't have enough abilities yet. So, its fine to play with, to do dungeons, and even derp around in raid with buddies with. However, realistically trying to push progression with it right now isn't terribly viable. However, we only have 18 days. So, DH will become much much better

[Lockybalboa 618]

4 hours ago, TeamC said:

I'm sorry to butt into this particular conversation

Bro, feel free to jump in anytime on any thread. More questions/answers is always welcome on IV.

4 hours ago, TeamC said:

can you elaborate just a bit on what viability means for Demon Hunters in Legion raiding?

Is it pretty much "Don't bring these ever!" or more of the idea that it takes a certain amount of work to keep Bears, Warriors, Paladins alive vs. a higher amount of work to keep DHs alive?

Does this viability or lack thereof really only come into play at the bleeding edge Mythic level, or is DH in such a bad state right now that they're largely lacking at all tiers of content?

 

"viability" depends on who you are talking too, when I speak it is normally from a mid-high end mythic progression view point because that is what I do. If I'm not talking about that I try to tell people because I do know that I'm in the 2%.

RIGHT NOW Demon Hunters are kind of crap for another two and a half weeks. They are missing almost all of their talents, no ring, no tier sets, etc. Because of this, I basically consider it a non-issue since it just doesn't matter. Sadly, there is a lot of derp derps spamming the internet right now screaming about how bad DH is and how no one will every play it ever...because looking at the class now Vs. at 110 in Legion is totally the same thing:

 

Now at 110 it becomes a whole new ballgame and V-DH does great in basically everything under high level mythic progression. Their survivability is a bit weak right now when it comes to high end boss fights. Because of that most people are considering them non-viable for progression Mythic raiding.

However, if  you're doing anything under that such as heroic raiding or just slow progression then they will do just fine. You might not be the tanking god that a pally is but...no one ever really is.

V-DH is also WICKED strong in Mythic+ content, so if you want to V-DH you'll always have friends in that area.

[demonardvark 556]

lets also add in that soooooo much tuning was done with the artifact weapons first. so classes that even now may not be looking hot, will get their artifact and be glorious

[TeamC 6]

Hey thanks guys. I appreciate the feedback. I had played a V-DH to about 850 ilvl on the beta but i stopped once it became apparent there wasn't much else to do besides grind AP. I never felt particularly squishy in the Mythic + stuff, nor in Heroic dungeons and what not. BUT that was before Blizzard turned their attention to the class in a negative way and started botching the talents and who knows what else, so I figured I'd ask people that might be more in the know. They killed DK for me, so I have to find something new. :)

[demonardvark 556]

11 hours ago, TeamC said:

Hey thanks guys. I appreciate the feedback. I had played a V-DH to about 850 ilvl on the beta but i stopped once it became apparent there wasn't much else to do besides grind AP. I never felt particularly squishy in the Mythic + stuff, nor in Heroic dungeons and what not. BUT that was before Blizzard turned their attention to the class in a negative way and started botching the talents and who knows what else, so I figured I'd ask people that might be more in the know. They killed DK for me, so I have to find something new. :)

yeah im not going to lie, prepatch DK has me sad panda, apocalypse is fun but that's not till legion, but even then new unholy rotation isn't too fun for me, feels enhance shammy esque, frost is.........no. blood is fun but i don't always like tanking. so i have found my main, i main like two toons have a main alt and then derp around. However, i'm liking the new fury warrior :) perhaps you should give it a shot too

however, i find just the speed of demon hunter makes it really fun, so you may find a good home with DH's. :)

 

[TeamC 6]

12 hours ago, demonardvark said:

yeah im not going to lie, prepatch DK has me sad panda, apocalypse is fun but that's not till legion, but even then new unholy rotation isn't too fun for me, feels enhance shammy esque, frost is.........no. blood is fun but i don't always like tanking. so i have found my main, i main like two toons have a main alt and then derp around. However, i'm liking the new fury warrior :) perhaps you should give it a shot too

however, i find just the speed of demon hunter makes it really fun, so you may find a good home with DH's. :)

 

Yeah, 100% agree, DA. I loved Blood and Unholy in WoD. I felt like if you played it well you could essentially make the specs greater than the sum of their parts, as it were. Some of the "Oh crap!" stuff I pulled off as Blood in raids, as well as doing neat late night stuff like soloing Kazzak or Mythic UBRS for shits and giggles just made me enjoy having a spec that I could sink my teeth into and explore the nuances of things like Breath of Sindragosa.

What they've done to DK in general is sad. It's not that the specs are performing badly, I just find them completely devoid of engaging game play. I feel like DH, as it was on the Beta (prior to Aug 1 when I stopped the Beta) had enough going for it that I could make a good main of it. I just don't want to get into a "Why don't you just play a bear or warrior because it'll make MY life easier" from some of the healers. 

[Lockybalboa 618]

6 hours ago, TeamC said:

Some of the "Oh crap!" stuff I pulled off as Blood in raids 

Literally the only reason I can tolerate tanking mythic progression is for moments like these.

[TeamC 6]

3 hours ago, Lockybalboa said:

Literally the only reason I can tolerate tanking mythic progression is for moments like these.

I've never been much of a "Look what I did!" guy, but you could pull off some crazy stuff if you knew what you were doing (not just on the DK either). It feels like most, if not all, of that is gone right now, sadly. 

[demonardvark 556]

4 hours ago, TeamC said:

I've never been much of a "Look what I did!" guy, but you could pull off some crazy stuff if you knew what you were doing (not just on the DK either). It feels like most, if not all, of that is gone right now, sadly. 

 

8 hours ago, Lockybalboa said:

Literally the only reason I can tolerate tanking mythic progression is for moments like these.

Agreed with both of you. Especially if i was doing really bad pugs with an off tank who knew nothing. Like realizing I could solo tank heroic + Kilrogg was amazing. It was always fun being able to push the limits of your classes. However, blizz did say they didn't like there being huge gaps in gameplay. IE good boomie can do 800k while a bad one will do 90. So, they removed so many things that allowed you to git gud. Sure some specs are a little bit more in depth than others, but so many nuances are gone. Like heck even in vanilla wow enhance shammies could put a couple points into elemental to get lava burst procs, that was awesome!!!!

[TeamC 6]

8 hours ago, demonardvark said:

Agreed with both of you. Especially if i was doing really bad pugs with an off tank who knew nothing. Like realizing I could solo tank heroic + Kilrogg was amazing. It was always fun being able to push the limits of your classes. However, blizz did say they didn't like there being huge gaps in gameplay. IE good boomie can do 800k while a bad one will do 90. So, they removed so many things that allowed you to git gud. Sure some specs are a little bit more in depth than others, but so many nuances are gone. Like heck even in vanilla wow enhance shammies could put a couple points into elemental to get lava burst procs, that was awesome!!!!

I do appreciate that Blizzard has tried to make classes more...let's call it "accessible" to people. Needing a Master's Degree to play Subtlety or Arms or whatever wasn't doing anyone any favors except the handful of people who knew how to do things well. I think they just swung the pendulum too far in the opposite direction and the classes have lost their nuances, as you said.

I look at Blood DK, and there is very little wiggle room from the "accepted" spec, which also happens to be pretty much the "best" spec too (give or take a bit). DH is in a similar position now that they've mucked up the talent tiers with Fel Eruption and Sigil of Chains. A lot of the talents people will go "eh, this is categorically better" and never deviate. That to me isn't good design from Blizzard's side of things. Yes, there will always be someone who comes along to "science the shit out of this thing" to the point they can tell you that Ebon Fever > All Will Serve (just using that as an example; no idea if it's true). But they need to do a better job of tinkering and twisting and just being creative so that even if X > Y > Z in talent tier 1, it doesn't mean that Y and Z are not worth the bits of data that comprises them. My example of this would be the difference between Defile and Breath of Sindragosa for Blood DK in WoD. Depending on which stats you were favoring, an argument could be made that Defile might be the better choice for you, and that BoS was more favored by people taking a different approach. With a few exceptions, I don't see this play out in the talents much among the classes I play (Blood, Brewmaster, Vengeance, Prot Pal/War).

[demonardvark 556]

9 hours ago, TeamC said:

I do appreciate that Blizzard has tried to make classes more...let's call it "accessible" to people. Needing a Master's Degree to play Subtlety or Arms or whatever wasn't doing anyone any favors except the handful of people who knew how to do things well. I think they just swung the pendulum too far in the opposite direction and the classes have lost their nuances, as you said.

I look at Blood DK, and there is very little wiggle room from the "accepted" spec, which also happens to be pretty much the "best" spec too (give or take a bit). DH is in a similar position now that they've mucked up the talent tiers with Fel Eruption and Sigil of Chains. A lot of the talents people will go "eh, this is categorically better" and never deviate. That to me isn't good design from Blizzard's side of things. Yes, there will always be someone who comes along to "science the shit out of this thing" to the point they can tell you that Ebon Fever > All Will Serve (just using that as an example; no idea if it's true). But they need to do a better job of tinkering and twisting and just being creative so that even if X > Y > Z in talent tier 1, it doesn't mean that Y and Z are not worth the bits of data that comprises them. My example of this would be the difference between Defile and Breath of Sindragosa for Blood DK in WoD. Depending on which stats you were favoring, an argument could be made that Defile might be the better choice for you, and that BoS was more favored by people taking a different approach. With a few exceptions, I don't see this play out in the talents much among the classes I play (Blood, Brewmaster, Vengeance, Prot Pal/War).

Well Blizz is very clever and they've very subtlety killed it. What I've found is that sims aren't always 100% accurate and they require perfect execution, this typically left wiggle room. So beginning of WoD every theorycrafter was saying unholy should use defile, I found otherwise, I found talent synergy no one noticed, and I founded and designed the necroblight style (with only a few places actually giving me credit XD). However, there is one little teeny thing that throws a wrench in that now, the legendary items. The legendary items are basically an addition set piece bonus. Many of them are completely garbage honestly XD but the ones that are worth while are very very powerful. To the point where, there is no option, you need to use this legendary and you need to talent this way to optimize it's usage. Most specs get 1 really strong dps augmenting legendary (fury gets like 3, go fury!!!!). This really really pigeon holes people into one rotation style. Sure you might switch up talents on a certain fight, but, overall it's going to be more or less the same.  Now certainly ilvl and legendary acquisition will changes how people do things at lower levels, however, mythic progression, the top 1000 logs on warcraft logs will be 99% the same.

[TeamC 6]

On 8/15/2016 at 7:00 AM, demonardvark said:

Well Blizz is very clever and they've very subtlety killed it. What I've found is that sims aren't always 100% accurate and they require perfect execution, this typically left wiggle room. So beginning of WoD every theorycrafter was saying unholy should use defile, I found otherwise, I found talent synergy no one noticed, and I founded and designed the necroblight style (with only a few places actually giving me credit XD). However, there is one little teeny thing that throws a wrench in that now, the legendary items. The legendary items are basically an addition set piece bonus. Many of them are completely garbage honestly XD but the ones that are worth while are very very powerful. To the point where, there is no option, you need to use this legendary and you need to talent this way to optimize it's usage. Most specs get 1 really strong dps augmenting legendary (fury gets like 3, go fury!!!!). This really really pigeon holes people into one rotation style. Sure you might switch up talents on a certain fight, but, overall it's going to be more or less the same.  Now certainly ilvl and legendary acquisition will changes how people do things at lower levels, however, mythic progression, the top 1000 logs on warcraft logs will be 99% the same.

Yeah the legendaries seem like they're simultaneously there to broaden your class a bit but to pigeonhole it a bit too. And, I agree, the the top parses will no doubt be people in the same or similar gear doing the same rotations, but isn't that how it normally is anyway? The more things change...

I feel like you might be someone who can give me a decent answer to this, rather than most of the people running around half-cocked about hating this, that, or the other thing, so while I am fully aware we're not in the Monk forum, have you heard any word of mouth from guildies discussing where they think Brewmaster is right now and going forward into Legion? I see a lot of conflicting reports; good in Mythic+, bad in raids, etc etc. Good, bad, or otherwise nothing I've ever seen you write has seemed hawkish or pissy, so kinda curious on your take. I ask because it's in the running for potential mains for me now that Blood DK is no longer what I find playable.

[demonardvark 556]

3 hours ago, TeamC said:

Yeah the legendaries seem like they're simultaneously there to broaden your class a bit but to pigeonhole it a bit too. And, I agree, the the top parses will no doubt be people in the same or similar gear doing the same rotations, but isn't that how it normally is anyway? The more things change...

I feel like you might be someone who can give me a decent answer to this, rather than most of the people running around half-cocked about hating this, that, or the other thing, so while I am fully aware we're not in the Monk forum, have you heard any word of mouth from guildies discussing where they think Brewmaster is right now and going forward into Legion? I see a lot of conflicting reports; good in Mythic+, bad in raids, etc etc. Good, bad, or otherwise nothing I've ever seen you write has seemed hawkish or pissy, so kinda curious on your take. I ask because it's in the running for potential mains for me now that Blood DK is no longer what I find playable.

The consensus I have found is that BrM is the most fun tank to play in legion. It's appearing the skill cap is a little bit higher. So, at 110 they do fine but with mythic + dungeons the term survive pops up. Basically meaning you gotta know your stuff.  A lot of people are whining that BrM is a bit squishy with the other half saying my favorite dark souls phrase "git gud". Playing myself I can agree that I find it to be the most engaging tank spec in legion and frankly its a lot of fun. I myself haven't really had much problems surviving, I think the rotation is a lot more fluid than ever, so I gotta say if you wanna tank BrM is a pretty fun choice :D

but again tuning will determine everything, however, looking at mythic + dungeons brm does have a decent toolkit compared to other tanks.

[Lockybalboa 618]

1 hour ago, demonardvark said:

the term survive pops up.

 

Bit more on topic, the buffs Veng-DH got the other day have helped a LOT. The mastery buff was major and the healing buff helped make it useful. They still are not top tier mythic raid tanks, but this makes them even more powerful in mythic+ dungeons. 

 

[demonardvark 556]

3 hours ago, Lockybalboa said:

 

Bit more on topic, the buffs Veng-DH got the other day have helped a LOT. The mastery buff was major and the healing buff helped make it useful. They still are not top tier mythic raid tanks, but this makes them even more powerful in mythic+ dungeons. 

 

so i think maybe then its a matter of considering what your desired "end game" progression is. perhaps demon hunter for mythic+ and BrM for raiding? I mean all should be fine regardless it just comes down to where things shine.

[TeamC 6]

@Lockybalboa  Yeah I like the DH Vengeance buff a lot. I'm not sure if it addresses all the concerns, but for the moment it makes them feel a little more secure. I never really felt squishy on the Beta at 110 in Heroic or Mythic 5mans, but never had a chance to get into the Mythic+ stuff, so I imagine things start to change quickly once you're past the initial +1/2/3 areas.

@demonardvark  I'm glad you said that because it's how I've felt since trying it on Beta, and in Live. I'll admit it I'm not 100% sure on the ideal times to prioritize Ironskin Brew vs. Purifying Brew, but I find the learning process as much fun as the "gud" part, and part of my gripe about most of the other tanks was that it felt like the ceiling for "git gud" was substantially lower, at least in terms of hitting the buttons. And, yeah, for reference my content cap seems to end up being Heroic raiding (because we rarely have 20 people willing to/capable of doing the Mythic content), but I do want to push the Mythic+ stuff as far as I can. Since it needs only 5 compared to 20, it seems more likely to cherrypick a good group to get those done.