Frost Mage: Trinket pick - Yu'longevity?

[Oltier 471]

You will only use IV unglyphed if you do not lust on the pull. Seeing as you gain 4 ticks of NT to 1 of LB, there isn't much else to discuss. Everyone really does sell the power of NT short. Along with the addition of NT ticks you NEED to understand how to snapshot your NT with your various procs.

Scenario: you have invocation buff, jade spirit and 5 stacks of Wushoolay on a freshly cast NT. You then immediately proc your meta. Let your Wushoolay build to 10, refresh your NT, even if its mid duration. You will gain more ticks and take advantage of your higher stacked Wushoolay.

A fire mage can play horribly and still compete. A frost mage can play horribly and be under the tank. Watching procs is a necessity and only those willing to understand how to snapshot will come out on top.

IV unglyphed is only clunky if you have a clunky gaming setup tbh. I actually find the glyphed IV to be far more clunky. You are in now way wasting frostbolt casts when using it for the 20% casting speed. You're using it to GET more frostbolts, as well as more NT Tticks.

Here's a breakdown of why the unglyphed version is better on some fights: frostbolts proc IL, NT procs BF, FFB procs more IL. More frostbolts from haste = more IL. More ticks from NT = more BF. More FFB = more IL. Sure, there is some rewrite on BF procs, but its negligible compared to the increase you're getting from a heavy haste NT.

Akraen said it best himself: "theorycrafting is dead". All of this new talk of NT and IV is exactly that: new. BUT, the results we're getting are very positive. It's not something you can just change one raid night and be comfortable with. And the quote you gave is the most inaccurate thing you could pick out of there: he played with it for 90 minutes and was it comfortable with high haste yet. Not a valid argument on your side I'm afraid. It. Will take. Time. There is no denying the increase you'll get from NT stacking. We just had a 2 day convo with AMR about it.

This play style isn't for everybody, but it WILL yield results in a positive favor.

So, to sum up the whole topic:

We should go for NT from the time, we can reach our magic number. Then, we should start calculating whether we can reach the next haste cap with the different buffs up. If yes, it is worth unglyphing, regemming etc etc.

However, unglyphing IV is only worth if you are not using hero on pull. If we indeed don't use hero on pull, we should use NT, with unglyphed IV and refresh it, when most of our haste buffs procced+Time Lord. In case we are using hero on pull, then glyphed IV will be better, exactly because we would waste FBs with IV and Hero up.

And, as Akraen said

Hi, sorry for the delay. Without any RPPM trinkets or the meta gem I don't think any of this applies-- you should follow the standard int > haste > shatter cap > mastery. I'd still aim for 12,684 haste if you can though. Try to get some RPPM doodlers, even if it's LFR.

Do I miss anything?

[areanu 16]

I would love to hear an opinion on this matter:

http://forums.askmrrobot.com/index.php?topic=4436.0

"Haste Thresholds" or "Haste Breakpoints" are terms used for values of Haste where HoTs and DoTs will get an extra "tick". This thread is exploring which HoTs and DoTs benefit from these values, and which ones don't.

There are two different HoT/DoT situations in WoW:

1.) DoTs or HoTs that are allowed to expire - they are NOT refreshed before they run their entire duration. These are generally the type that benefit from haste thresholds.

2.) DoTs or HoTs that are meant to have 100% uptime - they are refreshed before they run their entire duration. Extra ticks do not increase damage/healing per second - they only change the duration of the spell.

I'm confused. As far as I understand, haste matters for us frost mages, haste THRESHOLDS — don't. So whilst we are getting as much haste as possible, we should not really care about "that one extra tick".

Right?

[mastamage 2]

Could you post some logs and an armory link mastamage? I'm interested in the results you are getting. Pushing different playstyles is always a good thing!

Logs will have to wait until I get multiple kills on all bosses to compare on a weekly basis (regardless, results are good). Here's my armory:

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/character/turalyon/Mastamagee/simple

[mastamage 2]

I would love to hear an opinion on this matter:

http://forums.askmrrobot.com/index.php?topic=4436.0

I'm confused. As far as I understand, haste matters for us frost mages, haste THRESHOLDS — don't. So whilst we are getting as much haste as possible, we should not really care about "that one extra tick".

Right?

Read the entire thread. You'll see that AMR has your exact idea as well but what they don't understand is the way NT operates. Due to mastery getting a second look by us mages over at MMOc, you can get to a breakpoint, reforge to mastery and gem intellect until your next breakpoint is available. As this is new, most people don't like the way it plays. It's not for everybody and it will take time to understand. Haste in general, up to 53% with no procs, is beneficial. Hell, even haste beyond the frostbolt GCD is still benefiting our pet and NT. So, yes, haste is matters. And it matters more than what is realized by most frost mages. One extra tick = more damage, there's no arguing it.

[mastamage 2]

So, to sum up the whole topic:

We should go for NT from the time, we can reach our magic number. Then, we should start calculating whether we can reach the next haste cap with the different buffs up. If yes, it is worth unglyphing, regemming etc etc.

However, unglyphing IV is only worth if you are not using hero on pull. If we indeed don't use hero on pull, we should use NT, with unglyphed IV and refresh it, when most of our haste buffs procced+Time Lord. In case we are using hero on pull, then glyphed IV will be better, exactly because we would waste FBs with IV and Hero up.

And, as Akraen said

Do I miss anything?

Here's another helpful site to determine your NT breakpoints https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/lv?key=0AsDL8HE-bGDVdFFVWlIzbzQ5RFJJZGFyQ25xZmFYa0E&f=true&noheader=false&gid=39 make sure you choose Mage at the top.

Only issue is that you can still use NT even without the magic number. NT scales better than LB with haste procs (if you snapshot it), usually gaining 4 ticks to LB 1. It's all about finding a comfortable place for your haste, somewhat relies on RPPM trinkets as well as more haste = more procs.

Some people don't like paying under the GCD for FB so this play style won't be for them. Even with lust and meta proc you will be under the GCD at even my level of haste. The way you use hero on the pull will change or every raid group. Not all of them operate the same. So it will take awhile to gather your own data.

I never have a problem wasting FBs. In fact, I find myself flooded with procs of BF and IL, a result of more NT events in more BF which = potentially more IL. I'm always swimming in procs.

[mastamage 2]

I would love to hear an opinion on this matter:

http://forums.askmrrobot.com/index.php?topic=4436.0

I'm confused. As far as I understand, haste matters for us frost mages, haste THRESHOLDS — don't. So whilst we are getting as much haste as possible, we should not really care about "that one extra tick".

Right?

We beat that argument to death on MMOc. They're just theorycrafting, not taking into account the by-product of more NT ticks and how we stack them after various procs. They just do the paper maths and that's it. NT doesn't operate like other DoTs. Intended? Idk. The duration changes per added tick but its not always increasing, it's a mixture of inc/dec thus if it decreases duration then you're cramming another tick in that DoT in less time so more ticks in less time = more damage than what you had before.

[mastamage 2]

I strongly suggest you read the OP first comment of the thread as the playstyle has requirements http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/1302459-Frost-Haste-Caps-amp-You-Quick-Guide

[Oltier 471]

Thanks for sharing the topic with us, it was interesting to read and contained lots of useful information.

I think I am going to switch back to NT and remove IV glyph, once I can reach the haste breakpoint and I get my hands on the RPPM trinkets. Although, I will try to reach the breakpoint even without the trinkets. :) But I am pretty sure, that in my case and gear it is not worth it, yet. But if you ensured me in connection with this, I would like it

http://eu.battle.net...Oltier/advanced

[areanu 16]

<There was a line here on difficulties in communication between Arkaen and AMR, but that's outdated>

Plain and simple:

right BEFORE the threshold, you have X number of ticks and NT duration of ~11.65

right AFTER the threshold, you have (X+1) tick and NT duration of ~12.35.

Since the difference in NT duration is exactly equal to tick_time, there's no increase in damage from the threshold, unless you are keeping NT on multiple targets.

__________________________

Edit for clarification:

Once you hit a threshold, you'll have (X+1) ticks and ~12.35 seconds for NT duration.

As you go towards the next threshold, duration will decrease up to the point of ~11.65 seconds, when new tick, (X+2) is added.

Hence, every single 0.01% of haste adds damage to NT, either shortening duration OR adding both tick and duration.

Mathematically, duration of NT can be compared to sinusoid, where every spike is a new tick added.

Edited June 2, 2013 by areanu

[mastamage 2]

You most definitely need the 4-set AND an RPPM trinket to take advantage of this IV unglyphed idea. You can ignore some socket bonuses (like your neck and gem a 320 haste, if you're close to a breakpoint). I assume you're just taking gear as it comes since your pieces are scattered a lot. Your off-piece from the 4-set is the chest from Ji-Kun (haste/mastery).

Another thing I've noticed is your upgrading pattern on your gear: don't worry about your your trinkets since they aren't RPPM. Order should be:

Weapon / main hand

BiS trinkets

BiS pieces (your neck is BiS, upgrade that. BiS tier is everything but the chest)

Thunderforged gear

Legs

Helm

Chest

Shoulder

Gloves

Off-hand

Bracer

Waist

Back

Rings

This is how I upgrade. I have almost all BiS normal (excluding chest, ring 2, and back piece). If you can get to a breakpoint comfortably, gem for it. If not, wait for more gear. It's not a necessity to go full haste if you have to sacrifice lots of intel to get it to work. My level of haste comes with the proper itemization. So, get the correct loot and it will come more easily. If you'd like to discuss in-game, my realID is [email protected].

[mastamage 2]

It is really weird how Arkaen fails to hear arguments from AMR guys.

Plain and simple:

right BEFORE the threshold, you have X number of ticks and NT duration of ~11.65

right AFTER the threshold, you have (X+1) tick and NT duration of ~12.35.

Since the difference in NT duration is exactly equal to tick_time, there's no increase in damage from the threshold, unless you are keeping NT on multiple targets.

We didn't fail to hear any argument, in fact we all came to a conclusion that worked for everyone. But AMR has their mindset an it wasn't accurate with the way frost currently works. We've beaten it to death, we learned a lot from each other. That extra tick DOES matter when stacked to more than that extra, hence why we shoot for one and let our procs take us higher.

Here's a site to better explain the value of extra ticks http://lhiveras-library.com/compendium/nether-tempest

Edited June 2, 2013 by mastamage

[areanu 16]

I was slowly processing pages there and sharing mhy thoughts here, so yes, sorry, somewhat a conclusion was reached on MMO.

So, can we agree here that there are some very fight specific conditions where haste breakpoints matter, and a general rule that if you are keeping it on the target(s) 100%, it does not?

Example where it matters:

Tortos, as Arkaen pointed out: you are probably going to cast NT on small turtles only once, hence it's damage per NT and not DPS per NT what matters. Same for many adds, like Horridon or Ji-kun etc.

Example where it does not matter:

Jin-Rokh, or Council, or Twins etc — where you have one or many targets, but should aim for 100% NT duration on every one of them.

So, reaching haste breakpoint increasing damage per NT, while DPS per NT stays the same. It is beneficial when you are planning to cast NT only couple of times on certain targets, as, well, you get more damage per NT

[Oltier 471]

You most definitely need the 4-set AND an RPPM trinket to take advantage of this IV unglyphed idea. You can ignore some socket bonuses (like your neck and gem a 320 haste, if you're close to a breakpoint). I assume you're just taking gear as it comes since your pieces are scattered a lot. Your off-piece from the 4-set is the chest from Ji-Kun (haste/mastery).

Another thing I've noticed is your upgrading pattern on your gear: don't worry about your your trinkets since they aren't RPPM. Order should be:

Weapon / main hand

BiS trinkets

BiS pieces (your neck is BiS, upgrade that. BiS tier is everything but the chest)

Thunderforged gear

Legs

Helm

Chest

Shoulder

Gloves

Off-hand

Bracer

Waist

Back

Rings

This is how I upgrade. I have almost all BiS normal (excluding chest, ring 2, and back piece). If you can get to a breakpoint comfortably, gem for it. If not, wait for more gear. It's not a necessity to go full haste if you have to sacrifice lots of intel to get it to work. My level of haste comes with the proper itemization. So, get the correct loot and it will come more easily. If you'd like to discuss in-game, my realID is [email protected].

Yes, as I suspected, so I will stick to my glyph, yet. Unfortunately, I cannot reach the magic number with this gear, yet but I am just above the 120043 haste which yields an extra tick on LB and NT if I have meta or hero up, so I will stay like I am atm.

Yes, I am taking gear pretty randomly, because they most of the time, are significant upgrades from the previous tier. Like.. I'd go for Cha'ye's to replace the Relic of Yu'lon even if it's not the best trinket around atm.

I think I understood your points, but I still added you on realID just in case I have some random questions. Do you have any BiS list with haste and mastery out, or I should do the hard work?

Another question is. Is it mandatory to reforge everything out of crit, or I should try to stay on around ~18% unbuffed?

[mastamage 2]

Yes, as I suspected, so I will stick to my glyph, yet. Unfortunately, I cannot reach the magic number with this gear, yet but I am just above the 120043 haste which yields an extra tick on LB and NT if I have meta or hero up, so I will stay like I am atm.

Yes, I am taking gear pretty randomly, because they most of the time, are significant upgrades from the previous tier. Like.. I'd go for Cha'ye's to replace the Relic of Yu'lon even if it's not the best trinket around atm.

I think I understood your points, but I still added you on realID just in case I have some random questions. Do you have any BiS list with haste and mastery out, or I should do the hard work?

Another question is. Is it mandatory to reforge everything out of crit, or I should try to stay on around ~18% unbuffed?

Crit reforging depends on your trinket procs. Even with both trinkets procced, I'm still at 32% crit. I unfortunately I can't reforge any away until I get a new chest piece. Leave your crit where it is, don't sacrifice too much.

Currently there is no BiS list, just everything haste tbh. All tier except chest.