How to reforge - Crit or Haste?

[Waramaur 1]

I've been checking AskMrRobot.com on my toon to see how to best optimize. I've been doing the PVE:Default Build for my reforging which leans towards crit. With the trinkets that I have now, should I be using PVE:Tier 15 RPPM for reforging which leans towards haste?

Thanks in advance for input.

Armory profile below

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/character/undermine/Kylasyria/simple

[zombiecurse 0]

I'm also curious about this. I was doing default crit > haste > mastery, but would like to know if I should be doing haste > mastery > crit, as suggested here on Icy Veins. I understand that this might be for someone with actual raid gear, but would like a definite answer. Armory profile below as well:

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/character/blackwing-lair/Doomface/simple

[Crocky 0]

Hi there, since the stat weights for destro are all so even, once you get an rppm item haste will pull ahead, after that it is up to you whether you go mastery or crit. I prefer mastery as it allows me to play around with the other specs.

[Cedrin 3]

I play destro or afflction and love high haste build. Get lots of procs from trinkets and faster play style. I completely reforge out of crit. Basically using affliction build with around 29% haste buffed currently with rest in mastery after hit cap. You won't see many people at all reforging to crit due to trinket procs based off haste.

[Zagam 1,982]

No Warlock spec uses Crit as a focused secondary stat. Elect out of Crit anywhere possible.

[zombiecurse 0]

Alright, good to know. Is there any specific weights I should be punching into Wow-reforge, or Ask Mr. Robot, or should I just switch the values around so that Haste > Mastery > Crit. For example, 1.75 > 1.7 > 1.65.

Edit: Also, I only have one RPPM trinket (Wushoolay's Final Choice). My other trinket is the Volatile Talisman of Shado-Pan Assault, which I have read is not RPPM. I'm wondering if I should wait 'til I get another RPPM trinket before I reforge out of crit, or should I just do it anyways? Been waiting forever for a Breath of the Hydra or a Lei Shen's Unerring Vision . . .

Edited June 6, 2013 by zombiecurse

[Waramaur 1]

Thanks for the input, it is greatly appreciated. Also, I was looking at the Shado-Pan Assault Intel/Haste trinket and was curious which trinket I should replace it with.

Should I replace the Hit trinket I have or the Intel trinket?

Edit: I forgot to mention, I have the Breath of the Hydra in my inventory. Should I equip that one now or replace both my current trinkets with Breath and the Shado-Pan Assault Intel/Haste trinket?

Edit #2: Nevermind, I found my answer on the trinket page:

Affliction: Breath of the Hydra > Wushoolay's Final Choice >>> Volatile Talisman > Unerring Vision of Lei Shen > Cha-Ye's

Destruction: Wushoolay's Final Choice > Unerring Vision of Lei Shen > Breath of the Hydra > Cha-Ye's > Volatile Talisman

Demonology: Unerring Vision >>>>> Breath of the Hydra > Wushoolay's Final Choice > Volatile Talisman > Cha-Ye's

Edited June 6, 2013 by Waramaur

[Omaric 246]

Thanks for the input, it is greatly appreciated. Also, I was looking at the Shado-Pan Assault Intel/Haste trinket and was curious which trinket I should replace it with.

Should I replace the Hit trinket I have or the Intel trinket?

Edit: I forgot to mention, I have the Breath of the Hydra in my inventory. Should I equip that one now or replace both my current trinkets with Breath and the Shado-Pan Assault Intel/Haste trinket?

Edit #2: Nevermind, I found my answer on the trinket page:

Affliction: Breath of the Hydra > Wushoolay's Final Choice >>> Volatile Talisman > Unerring Vision of Lei Shen > Cha-Ye's

Destruction: Wushoolay's Final Choice > Unerring Vision of Lei Shen > Breath of the Hydra > Cha-Ye's > Volatile Talisman

Demonology: Unerring Vision >>>>> Breath of the Hydra > Wushoolay's Final Choice > Volatile Talisman > Cha-Ye's

Volatile should be a bottom feeder trinket for all specs. Unerring is absolutely viable for Affliction. I wouldn't put it far under Wush.

[zombiecurse 0]

Volatile should be a bottom feeder trinket for all specs. Unerring is absolutely viable for Affliction. I wouldn't put it far under Wush.

Does this still apply in a situation where you would be replacing Volatile with a 502 trinket?

[Omaric 246]

Does this still apply in a situation where you would be replacing Volatile with a 502 trinket?

Unerring? I would say yes. Give it some time and see how it works for you.

[zombiecurse 0]

Unerring? I would say yes. Give it some time and see how it works for you.

Cool, thanks. While I have your ear, I'm wondering about the question I asked above about specific stat weights. Basically, I have Wushoolay's trinket and Volatile atm. I've been using the basic Mr. Robot Crit > Haste => Mastery stat priority, but now I see a lot of people are saying that it should be Haste > Mastery => Crit. What I'm wondering is if this still applies if you only have one RPPM trinket, as in my situation. Reforging to Haste will give me roughly an extra four per cent on that stat.

If it is a good idea to reforge, are there any specific stat weights that I should be using, or is it basically just a matter of making sure the stat weights are Haste > Mastery => Crit?

[Omaric 246]

Cool, thanks. While I have your ear, I'm wondering about the question I asked above about specific stat weights. Basically, I have Wushoolay's trinket and Volatile atm. I've been using the basic Mr. Robot Crit > Haste => Mastery stat priority, but now I see a lot of people are saying that it should be Haste > Mastery => Crit. What I'm wondering is if this still applies if you only have one RPPM trinket, as in my situation. Reforging to Haste will give me roughly an extra four per cent on that stat.

If it is a good idea to reforge, are there any specific stat weights that I should be using, or is it basically just a matter of making sure the stat weights are Haste > Mastery => Crit?

Crit is lowest on the totem pole for every spec. As a general rule try to find a balance between haste and mastery. Once you get higher ilvl for Demonology shoot for 8100 haste and the rest in mastery.

[zombiecurse 0]

Crit is lowest on the totem pole for every spec. As a general rule try to find a balance between haste and mastery. Once you get higher ilvl for Demonology shoot for 8100 haste and the rest in mastery.

Sorry, I'm talking about Destro.

Edit: Although I see what you're saying. It sounds like I should just weight Haste and Mastery equally and put crit somewhere below them, no matter what the spec.

Edited June 6, 2013 by zombiecurse

[Omaric 246]

Correct. Any spec. For Destruction the fight can change the weight of either haste or mastery. Fights with many adds and liberal spam of Chaos Bolt/Shadowburn will result in a favoring of mastery.

[zombiecurse 0]

Gotcha. Thanks for the help.

BTW: You and Zagam both do an awesome job explaining the Warlock specifics on here. I've been following these forums for a while, pretty much my (dark) bible as far as lock stuff goes. The work you guys do figuring all this stuff out is much appreciated.

[Omaric 246]

Haha, no problem man, although I'm just an educated guessing parrot. Zagam does all the hard guide work and Gahhda is pouring in the SimC numberology, which we all appreciate!

[zombiecurse 0]

Bit of an addendum to this:

I downloaded Simcraft to check this out for myself. Imported my toon from the armory and ran him through the basic simulation. Now, it's giving me the same Crit > Mastery => Haste stat priority I was using before . . . is it possible my gear just favors this stat priority, or am I doing something wrong with Simcraft here?

[Vestion 8]

Demonology: Unerring Vision >>>>> Breath of the Hydra > Wushoolay's Final Choice > Volatile Talisman > Cha-Ye's

Just thought I should add that wush is the same if not better than breath for demo and probably other specs. It all depends on how well you can time the snapshots really. Of course breath is still a good choice if you like the 20 sec flat int compared to the increasing int

[Zagam 1,982]

Wush's signature is being able to snapshot something or execute some mega burst with 15k+ Intellect proc. For Demonology, the only thing that comes to mind is Doom which UVoLS already takes care of; therefore, Wush's only use would be to use Metamorphosis during the tail end of the procs which puts a bit of a bind if, say, Perfect Aim were to proc at an inopportune time.

For the opener, Breath of the Hydra lasts 20 seconds. Dark Soul lasts 20 seconds. Your initial Demonic Fury charge lasts about 20 seconds....see where I'm going with this one? It's also a much more forgiving trinket because it has 1600+ Haste rating on it allowing for favorable reforges. The insane amount of Hit rating on Wush will create problems later. I already can barely get rid of enough Hit as it is.

The other considering you have to take in is that you can't have two sets of trinkets for two different specs that involve Wush unless you use Wush on both of them. If you like UVoLS and Wush as one spec but Breath and Cha-Ye's on another, your Breath and Cha-Ye's will be under hit cap or your Wush combo will be over hit.

[Omaric 246]

I'd love a Breath, unfortunately it hasn't dropped once for our 25 man guild since this tier launched. I seriously hate dodging around the hit rating on Wush, but I also love the proc.

[andershow 0]

Bit of an addendum to this:

I downloaded Simcraft to check this out for myself. Imported my toon from the armory and ran him through the basic simulation. Now, it's giving me the same Crit > Mastery => Haste stat priority I was using before . . . is it possible my gear just favors this stat priority, or am I doing something wron

g with Simcraft here?

can somebody answer this guy? :P

im quite curious of what the answer will be like, since im in an situation that is very similar to his.

atm im following the haste > mastery > crit scenario and i was wondering about it been the right one...

anyway, here's my armory for a checkout. http://us.battle.net/wow/en/character/stormrage/Andershow/simple

any tip is apreciated since im always looking foward for any improve.

cya and thanks in antecipation.

[Cruzan 71]

can somebody answer this guy?

im quite curious of what the answer will be like, since im in an situation that is very similar to his.

atm im following the haste > mastery > crit scenario and i was wondering about it been the right one...

anyway, here's my armory for a checkout. http://us.battle.net...ndershow/simple

any tip is apreciated since im always looking foward for any improve.

cya and thanks in antecipation.

I think Omaric and Zagam answered it, but basically just keep Haste and Mastery equal and dump all crit.

Sims are based on a purely patchwerk type of fight which aren't representative of this raid tier. H=M>C will cover the bases pretty well for every fight and works out great if you switch to an offspec for a certain fight.

[Scoggleon 1]

Back to the trinkets, I have breath and Wush currently, and I feel that mid fight Wush is awesome, but it is pretty challenging to get the most out of it on my opener, especially with the legendary meta being only a 10 second proc. Still a very solid option for a trinket, but the breath and lei shen trinket rank higher in my books.

[Jenaye 9]

i cant see the Unerring proc being worth a damn for destro due to the nature of the proc itself. I see myself going with Breath and.... the pretty one that looks like an eye, whose name escapes me because it's the 1 trinket i dont have from this tier >.> This is why I stick to Demo/Aff <3

[Zagam 1,982]

To answer Simcraft questions...

Simcraft's values are given as a point of DPS gained per point of secondary stats. Many just see the number and assume that a bigger number obviously means more DPS. While this is true, this value fluctuates as you change your stats. The reason you see one set of numbers one time and then a different set a different time is because now you are getting DPS from different sources.

For example, a 3.55 weight to Haste means that you get 3.55 DPS per point of Haste. If you have 10,000 Haste, you're getting 35,500 DPS from your Haste rating. Now, let's play this game...

You have 10,000 Haste and 10,000 Mastery. Simcraft says Haste = 3.70, Mastery = 3.80. What someone might think is 'ah, go full Mastery.' This is a mistake, and you'll see why here in this example (values not real, just using as an example):

10,000 H = 37,000 DPS + 10,000 M = 38,000 DPS = 75,000 DPS.

Now let's say you reforge 5,000 Haste into Mastery. Now you have 5,000 Haste and 15,000 Mastery. However, because you changed your values, the DPS gained PER POINT of secondary stats changes to something like Haste = 4.25, Mastery = 3.50. Now the player is confused because he/she thinks Haste is better. So he/she reforges to full Haste and sees Mastery > Haste again only to find things switch upon more iterations. Then the player comes here and wants an answer he or she saw 3 times but needs clarified. Hopefully this helps. However, look at this example of Haste and Mastery...

5,000 H = 21,250 DPS + 15,000 M = 52,500 DPS = 73,750 DPS.

Notice the overall drop because of how the values correlate. It's TYPICALLY frowned upon to stack one stat to all hell and back, but in this tier with the RPPM procs of various things, Haste is valued higher than it should be, so some are going that way. However, when it's all said and done, we're talking about a change of less than 1,000 DPS when we're doing 175,000 to 225,000 and more DPS which is less than 1% variance.