Marksman Rotation Questions

[craazzy 0]

So ive been trying to learn my Marksman rotation since I came back Pre-legion. Ive been reading on here, tried noxxic (lol) and still have a few questions. Im running Barrage, Lock and Load, and Patient Sniper.

 

My normal rotation looks generally like this:

Precast Aimed shot
Barrage (greater than 1 target)
Sidewinders(on Proc or capped)
Marked Shot(on Proc)
Aimed shot
Aimed shot
By this point ill either have a Sidewinder proc up to restart my single target rotation, or if its an aoe pull ill use barrage before moving back to my normal rotation

Ill throw in Windburst when I have no Sidewinders or Marked shot procs and vulnerable is down. Ill cast barrage on CD when im not mid-Vulnerable. Aimed shot as a filler when im not focus starved and have no procs.

My Question is this: It appears Sidewinders also applies vulnerable, so should I go Sidewinders>Aim>aim>marked>aim>aim, to get the full use out of my vulnerable procs? Or should I stick to my current rotation Using Sidewinder>Marked>aim>aim?  I guess overall, Should I Aimed shot WHENEVER I have vulnerable(after sidewinder, marked shot, windburst), or is there points where using that vulnerable is outweighed by proceeding with a rotation?

It seems that the extra aimed shots might eat up some extra focus, but its not like im constantly focused starved right now. And the sidewinders refills focus as well, so I might end up not capping myself and wasting focus regen. My Dps is usually group leading, at least in pugs, Between 95-105k Overall @lvl 105. Only been beat out overall dps in 1 or 2 groups, so its not like my rotation now doesn't work, I'm just looking for that maximization.

Aside from this question, any other tips are welcome! Thanks in Advance for any feedback!!

 

EDIT: After Discussion, more research, and re-reading the guide it looks like the best way to open should roughly be simplified to:
Trueshot
Barrage
Sidewinder
Marked Shot
Aimed Shot
Aimed shot

A "Normal" cycle throughout a fight should be to use 3 Aimed shots in the time that you use 1 Sidewinder and 1 Marked shot:

Sidewinder
Aimed shot
Marked shot
Aimed shot
Aimed shot

Or

Sidewinder
Aimed shot
Aimed shot
Marked shot
Aimed shot

dependent on when movement is required.

I personally will be using barrage on CD *IF* I have less than 2 seconds remaining on vulnerable debuff. If I have more than 2 seconds left, I might as well squeeze in 1 more buffed Aimed shot before proceeding to barrage, providing I have enough focus to immediately follow the aimed shot with barrage. It gets a Little confusing but this is a decent starting point.

 

 

Edited September 7, 2016 by craazzy
addition

[Mowhowk 0]

22 hours ago, craazzy said:

My Question is this: It appears Sidewinders also applies vulnerable, so should I go Sidewinders>Aim>aim>marked>aim>aim, to get the full use out of my vulnerable procs? Or should I stick to my current rotation Using Sidewinder>Marked>aim>aim?  I guess overall, Should I Aimed shot WHENEVER I have vulnerable(after sidewinder, marked shot, windburst), or is there points where using that vulnerable is outweighed by proceeding with a rotation?

It seems that the extra aimed shots might eat up some extra focus, but its not like im constantly focused starved right now. And the sidewinders refills focus as well, so I might end up not capping myself and wasting focus regen. My Dps is usually group leading, at least in pugs, Between 95-105k Overall @lvl 105. Only been beat out overall dps in 1 or 2 groups, so its not like my rotation now doesn't work, I'm just looking for that maximization.

Aside from this question, any other tips are welcome! Thanks in Advance for any feedback!!

 

To Quote Azortharion : "The basic idea is to get as much out of the Vulnerable windows as possible by maximizing focus spending in it, while minimizing focus spendage outside it"

In short,

1. Cast Marked Shot when it is available.
2. Cast Barrage on cooldown.
3. Cast Windburst on cooldown.
4. Cast Aimed Shot when you have enough focus, and Vulnerable is active.
5. Cast Sidewinders when you get a Marking Targets proc, or when it reaches 2 charges.

  I have found that MM is all about managing the debuff on mobs and player buffs/procs so the rotation can change a bit depending on procs and necessary movement during encounters.

[mmkay 0]

4 minutes ago, Mowhowk said:

 

1. Cast Marked Shot when it is available.
2. Cast Barrage on cooldown.
3. Cast Windburst on cooldown.
4. Cast Aimed Shot when you have enough focus, and Vulnerable is active.
5. Cast Sidewinders when you get a Marking Targets proc, or when it reaches 2 charges.

 

I get lost by step 1 and 4. Like, I get marked proc, do I:
Aim > Aim > Marked > Aim Aim
Or do I:
Marked > Aim > Aim > Sidewinders/Something else.

I also think this is what OP is wondering aswell :)


I currently do the first rotation I mentioned, since I make more use of vulnerability and the marked shot doesn't go to waste since I use it a few secs later. Afaik its the best?

[craazzy 0]

Ok, so I did some more research. Watched a few youtube videos, and did some playing when I got home. According to the videos, you SHOULD NOT be using marked shot directly following Sidewinders. My rotation ended up looking like this:

Sidewinders
Aimed shot 
Marked shot
Aimed shot
Aimed shot

Usually after the 3rd Aimed shot im barely below 50 Focus for my 4th Aimed shot, so I either wait for a regen tick to cast the 4th or throw out a sidewinder. If it was a larger pull I might open with barrage because it still procs my sidewinders. With sidewinders coming second in the rotation and restoring 50 focus, you're guaranteed to have full focus after the cast, as aimed shot is 50 focus, barrage is in the same neighborhood, and windburst is 20.

It seems this method (aimed shot between sidewinder/marked)is a tiny bit less aoe efficient but possibly more single target efficient.  Definitely get more out of your vulnerable, instead of wasting a whole 6sec from the sidewinder/markedshot combo, but you do run into a focus issue living by this rotation religiously. Im still trying to work out the best points to barrage and windburst, because you pretty much have vulnerable up for the first 30 sec, so any normal world mob is dead before you have no vulnerable to throw out barrage and not waste your debuff.

 

Mmkay, the goal is to keep up vulnerable, and cast as many aimed shots as possible. Sidewinders Puts vulnerable and Hunters mark on the target (hunters mark opens up marked shot), so you want to use youre 6sec of vulnerable from Sidewinders to cast aimed shots (x2), before using your marked shot proc, which adds vulnerable again then use another two aimed shots, before moving on in the rotation. Try out the rotation I mentioned above, and I think youll get the general idea! If not feel free to PM me and we can talk this through together in game!!

Edited September 7, 2016 by craazzy

[mmkay 0]

Cheers, thanks for confirming it. I've been playing with the AS > AS > MS > AS > AS pretty much.
I thought it would be the best, but I didn't know for sure :=

[Jayeasy 1]

"It seems this method (aimed shot between sidewinder/marked)is a tiny bit less aoe efficient but possibly more single target efficient."

As long as you're not capping SW or letting Vuln fall of before MS, there is no difference in AOE efficiency at all. This holds true for single target too.

"the goal is to keep up vulnerable"

Kinda. The goal is to cast everything you can under Vuln without letting SW cap and without capping focus. Realistically you won't need and can't use a full ~10 second Vuln uptime of a SW/MS cycle doing things. There will be downtime or other factors like barrage and movement.

"cast aimed shots (x2), before using your marked shot proc, which adds vulnerable again then use another two aimed shots"

4 aimed shots in a cycle isn't going to be possible normally without capping SW or having Vuln fall off except maybe under Trushot/Lust. But even if you could, it's going to even out when you start the next cycle at almost no focus. Also, 4 aimed casts in a row means no movement. 3 sounds more likely if barrage and windburst are ignored.

[craazzy 0]

After reading your pos mmkay it seems i may have been slightly wrong. From what I read the replies you got were saying barrage>aim+vulnerable. Seems there is quite a bit of opinions, some saying ignore the first vulnerable instead using that time for barrage before getting into the aim/side/mark rotation. So I guess it's back to testin 

 

[craazzy 0]

15 minutes ago, Thejazz said:

4 aimed shots in a cycle isn't going to be possible normally without capping SW or having Vuln fall off except maybe under Trushot/Lust. But even if you could, it's going to even out when you start the next cycle at almost no focus. Also, 4 aimed casts in a row means no movement. 3 sounds more likely if barrage and windburst are ignored.

I wasn't saying cast 4 on a single vulnerable, I was saying cast 2 under the first vulnerable, then use your marked to cast another two.

Edit: maybe I'm misunderstanding what you're saying. Like I said usually by the 3rd I'm just short of focus for the 4th so I do have to wait for a Regen tic to cast the 4th maybe this is what you're referring to.

Edited September 6, 2016 by craazzy

[mmkay 0]

8 minutes ago, craazzy said:

After reading your pos mmkay it seems i may have been slightly wrong. From what I read the replies you got were saying barrage>aim+vulnerable. Seems there is quite a bit of opinions, some saying ignore the first vulnerable instead using that time for barrage before getting into the aim/side/mark rotation. So I guess it's back to testin 

 

Ignoring the first Vuln is not good imo. Since you can easily throw an Aimed shot and then Barrage --- > Hence getting 1 more Aimed with Vuln more than if you skipped it. And that would make your dmg output higer? Or am I missing something.

I made a post in my thread here on the forums with some "tool-tip based + hobbyist calculations".
So in my book it would be bad to skip the first Vuln window.

Edited September 6, 2016 by mmkay

[Jayeasy 1]

Just now, craazzy said:

I wasn't saying cast 4 on a single vulnerable, I was saying cast 2 under the first vulnerable, then use your marked to cast another two

Yea I know, try it at a dummy. Even starting at max focus, a sw-ai-ai-ms-ai-(small delay waiting for focus)-ai costs you 230 focus and you may just barely have Vuln fall off as you finish. Even if you can fit it in with enough haste, your next "cycle" will have you start so low on focus that you will not be able to cast 4 or even 3 again, you'll probably only be able to pull off 2. So it would even out basically. Being so focus starved trying to do that also leaves you in a bad spot for using barrage on cooldown as well.

[craazzy 0]

Ya I edited the post, misunderstood what you were saying.

 

So what do you suggest as a rotation instead of trying to sw>as>as>ms>as>as?

Edited September 6, 2016 by craazzy

[craazzy 0]

15 minutes ago, mmkay said:

Ignoring the first Vuln is not good imo. Since you can easily throw an Aimed shot and then Barrage --- > Hence getting 1 more Aimed with Vuln more than if you skipped it. And that would make your dmg output higer? Or am I missing something.
 

This makes sense, you might as well squeeze in one buffed AS prior to using your barrage. Ill try leading with this opener tonight:
WB>AS>Barrage>SW>AS>AS.

Im not entirely sure how this will work out focus wise though, currently at work...

[Jayeasy 1]

Either combination of 3 aimed shots usually. Not really safe to nail down either 2-1 or 1-2 because you're going to change it depending on movement (SW-Ai-move if needed-MS-Ai-Ai). The default is to simply say SW-Ai-MS-(Ai as much as you can) which should be 2 aimed shots after ms.

[craazzy 0]

Just now, Thejazz said:

Either combination of 3 aimed shots usually. Not really safe to nail down either 2-1 or 1-2 because you're going to change it depending on movement (SW-Ai-move if needed-MS-Ai-Ai). The default is to simply say SW-Ai-MS-(Ai as much as you can) which should be 2 aimed shots after ms.

Ok so youre saying as a general rule try to cast 3 AS in the time that you cast 1 SW and MS.

Any way you could lay out a simple rotation, from opener through the first 30 sec maybe? I realize nothing is set in stone, but just a general idea for me to work with.

[Jayeasy 1]

Earlier it was said to try a WB-Ai-Barrage before your first sidewinder. That means you're sitting on capped SW for like 5 seconds and missing Marked Shot possibilities. Just follow the guide's priority for opening. It will depend on whether you have Lust or not, either 3 or 4 Market Shots are possible in the opener. You're not as worried about following the "normal" cycle in the opener because every SW is a guaranteed MS and haste is so high, so you can pop your MS right away then. As long as you finish TS with 0 charges on SW, never capped focus, and landed everything with vulnerability up, you maximized your potential damage.

The important thing is that you follow those rules throughout: do not cap SW, do not cap focus, land everything while Vuln is up. If those are met, which should be easy with the mentioned 3 Ai per cycle, there is no such thing as wasted vulnerability time or downtime or whatever.

Edited September 6, 2016 by Thejazz

[craazzy 0]

14 minutes ago, Thejazz said:

Earlier it was said to try a WB-Ai-Barrage before your first sidewinder. That means you're sitting on capped SW for like 5 seconds and missing Marked Shot possibilities. Just follow the guide's priority for opening. It will depend on whether you have Lust or not, either 3 or 4 Market Shots are possible in the opener. You're not as worried about following the "normal" cycle in the opener because every SW is a guaranteed MS and haste is so high, so you can pop your MS right away then. As long as you finish TS with 0 charges on SW, never capped focus, and landed everything with vulnerability up, you maximized your potential damage.

The important thing is that you follow those rules throughout: do not cap SW, do not cap focus, land everything while Vuln is up. If those are met, which should be easy with the mentioned 3 Ai per cycle, there is no such thing as wasted vulnerability time or downtime or whatever.

this is pretty convoluted to me and partially why I started this post to begin with. If I understood the guides priority clearly I wouldn't be asking these questions haha, maybe im stupid. If you could be so kind as to lay out your opening sequence with/without lust it would really help me out.

By "Normal Cycle" are you referring to the SW>AS>MS>AS>AS?

Edited September 6, 2016 by craazzy

[Jayeasy 1]

At any moment you could have to move or a lnl could proc and throw anything solid off, but it can basically be simplified to SW - MS - Ai until no focus - repeat until TS ends. If by doing that you do not cap SW, cap focus, or cast anything without Vulnerable, then you're fine.

Edited September 6, 2016 by Thejazz

[mmkay 0]

I might be retarded here, but shouldent SW > AS > AS > MS > AS be better than SW > MS > AS > AS?

[Jayeasy 1]

7 minutes ago, mmkay said:

I might be retarded here, but shouldent SW > AS > AS > MS > AS be better than SW > MS > AS > AS?

As long as you're following the rules I mentioned, it won't matter in theory because you don't lose anything (you'd still get 3 Ai after first MS). It actually will though because of Marked for Death so you'd want those Aimed Shots buffed by it.

Edited September 6, 2016 by Thejazz

[craazzy 0]

1 minute ago, mmkay said:

I might be retarded here, but shouldent SW > AS > AS > MS > AS be better than SW > MS > AS > AS?

This was my original question and the reason for this thread. I started by running SW>MS>AS>AS but felt I was wasting the vuln proc from SW Basically using it only for the hunter mark proc felt like I wasn't utilizing all my tools.

[Jayeasy 1]

4 minutes ago, craazzy said:

This was my original question and the reason for this thread. I started by running SW>MS>AS>AS but felt I was wasting the vuln proc from SW Basically using it only for the hunter mark proc felt like I wasn't utilizing all my tools.

Are you still talking opener or not? Outside of the opener, SW>MS is really not a good idea unless you have windburst or barrage to use after your 2 Ai. Otherwise you're going to run into problems managing your resources.

[craazzy 0]

I guess im talking about both situations. If I understand you correct, you saying open with SW>ms>AS>as, then once youre into your normal rotation go sw>as>ms>As>as?

[Jayeasy 1]

That's about the safest way to do it.

[craazzy 0]

Thanks ks for the help bud, sorry if it got confusing,i think this is a solid starting point and might help Few people. I'll give it a shot tonight.

[Azortharion 60]

Good discussion.

The important thing to understand is that there are hundreds of different ways to do the rotation, some of which have been discussed, and neither are generally more correct than the others, though there are very subtle differences that may make you wanna pick one over the other.

Casting Marked directly after Sidewinders is entirely valid. It gets the same amount of Aimed Shot Vulnerables as putting Aimed Shots in between, but you'll run out of stuff to do faster because you're not really milking the duration of your Vulnerable buff. This isn't necessarily a bad thing, but it can be because you'll generally be spending your focus faster than Sidewinders can recharge, meaning that you'll more often end up unable to cast the Sidewinders with a proc when you need it (when AoE or priority targets spawn especially). That's why the guide recommends to fill the "gaps" with Aimed Shots, because you're kinda taking the same rotation that you'd otherwise have and "dragging it out", making it take longer (but ultimately doing the same damage).