Official Artifact Traits Mythic+ and Raiding?

[jmaster299 5]

None of the guides, here or on mmo-champ, officially stat how many artifact traits we should focus on for Mythic+ and Raiding. There is a post, buried within a thread, that suggested putting 14 traits into BM and then about 20 into MM. But that post was from before the actual launch of Legion, or right at launch, if I remember correctly.

The main reason why I am looking for more information is the BM guide specifically goes all the way up to 18 traits in the first two sections, red and green, of the progression. But the 14 traits that the random post mention would have you stopping before then after maxing out Furious Swipes. I really do want to focus on Mythic+ as well as raiding, so I am trying to do that in the most optimal way.

Where the confusion comes in for me is the fact that the MM guide has the first two progression paths ending exactly at the 20 traits mentioned in the post I mentioned. But, as I just mentioned, putting only 14 traits into BM as the post suggested stops you before reaching the end of the second tier of progression into BM.

I know I'm likely in the minority, but I am genuinely enjoying BM. So I really don't mind doing more work to invest in it further while making sure I have enough invested into MM for raiding. But if investing to 18 traits in BM really isn't worth it over the 14 mentioned in the post, I won't worry about it. But as those extra 4 points buffs Beastial Wrath and gives you additional AoE at your pet, I would think they would be well suited for the monster cleave damage that BM is supposed to offer for Mythic+

[Iridar 80]

I think you were supposed to put 13 or 14 POINTS not, TRAITS, essentially stopping at the trait that makes Hati benefit from Bestial Wrath / Kill Command / etc.

[Orthios 271]

No, the initial goal is to have 1 or 2 points in the Furious Swipes trait for BM, and have Bullseye, Rapid Killing, and Legacy for MM.  This is, of course, if you decide to main MM for raiding and keep BM for Mythic dungeons.

[jmaster299 5]

16 hours ago, Iridar said:

I think you were supposed to put 13 or 14 POINTS not, TRAITS, essentially stopping at the trait that makes Hati benefit from Bestial Wrath / Kill Command / etc.

Points are Traits. 

 

9 hours ago, Orthios said:

No, the initial goal is to have 1 or 2 points in the Furious Swipes trait for BM, and have Bullseye, Rapid Killing, and Legacy for MM.  This is, of course, if you decide to main MM for raiding and keep BM for Mythic dungeons.

That's what I figured, but the lack of anything official within the guide is what made me want to be certain. Especially since the guide is set up so the 2nd tier of progression for MM stops at Legacy at 20 points/traits while the BM guide, the second tier of progression goes past that 13 point/trait mark of putting points into Furious Swipes.

So, to me, it looks like 13 points/traits into BM, 20 into MM for raiding, then get up to Surge of the Stormgod in BM. Sounds right, sounds good, just wanting to make sure my thinking is correct.

[Ridzekt 0]

way im reading it is , BM is the prefered spec up to mythic dungeons then switching to MM for 20 points before u start raiding but if u enjoy BM and want to raid as BM  then u dont need to put any points into MM,

[Iridar 80]

2 hours ago, Ridzekt said:

way im reading it is , BM is the prefered spec up to mythic dungeons then switching to MM for 20 points before u start raiding but if u enjoy BM and want to raid as BM  then u dont need to put any points into MM,

I honestly see no point in going BM just for dungeons. I've done a few regular mythics as Piercing Shot MM, and it already seems to perform exceptionally well, I was decidedly top DPS in vast majority of encounters. 

I haven't tried BM outside soloing, but it can't be that much better than MM.

Just seems like a lot of unnecessary min/maxing for vague benefits.

Edited September 8, 2016 by Iridar

[chicken 4]

I started as MM until my next upgrade was 6840 artifact power. At this point, I just wanted to try BM because I didn't play the beta. I have not had a reason to switch back. I feel BM performs in both single target, AoE, and it is more mobile. Especially with bosses when there is quite a bit of movement, I felt my DPS suffered on MM not being able to cast Aimed Shot while moving. The only time I can think BM DPS suffers is switching targets to pick up adds because the pets have to run back and forth. Other than that, BM is awesome to me. Not to mention I love having an extra Battle Resurrect or Lust depending on the pet I choose.

I will say, if Aimed Shot could be casted while moving and Barrage wasn't an annoyance I definitely would have stayed MM. MM would be king with those changes.  

The question for me is, do I stack the single target Kill Command relics or do I stack the AoE Beast Cleave relics? I want to do both Raiding and Mythic+.

[jmaster299 5]

12 hours ago, Iridar said:

I honestly see no point in going BM just for dungeons. I've done a few regular mythics as Piercing Shot MM, and it already seems to perform exceptionally well, I was decidedly top DPS in vast majority of encounters. 

I haven't tried BM outside soloing, but it can't be that much better than MM.

Just seems like a lot of unnecessary min/maxing for vague benefits.

Anecdotal experiences don't replace hard facts, you are also focusing on the entirely wrong point in the MM vs BM debate for Mythic+ Dungeons. The BM spec for Mythic+ is not designed around single target damage, so it winning or losing against MM on boss encounters in Mythic or Mythic+ is irrelavent. Also, your personal performance tells us nothing because we know nothing about the people you were playing with. Their class, spec, gear, skill, etc. 

The entire point of running Mythic+ as BM, with the gear, talent and Artifact build as described in the guide is because if you follow the guide, you will excel at clearing trash. And it's clearing trash that takes the most time in any dungeon, especially Mythic+. Not that my own anecdotal evidence means much, but to give you an example, I've been running Mythics with a Hunter in my guild who is better geared than I am but only plays MM. I'm 834 and last I checked he was like 845. On pulls with 1 or 2 mobs he typically beats me, but 3 or more mobs and I completely destroy him. By like 100,000 DPS. 

So, with better gear and a Artifact weapon much further progressed than my BM one that I stopped at 13 traits, I wipe the floor with him on trash packs with 3 or more mobs. I also have a MUCH easier time handling boss mechanics that require a lot of movement and end up beating him on certain single target fights. That's where the strength is for BM in Mythic Dungeons.

As for the solo'ing, since I leveled as BM I can't speak for how it compares to MM because I don't really know what it's like to level in this expac as MM. I've tried it a few times, and couldn't do nearly as much as I can as BM. I know BM fights my personal play style for leveling better, in that I can pull massive amounts of mobs and never have to worry about kiting or anything else for that matter. Just keep my pet healed, and I'm pulling 10+ mobs at a time. 

It's doubly useful as a Skinner, I can loot and skin as stuff dies, this helps prevent the snot nosed brats who like to steal skins. It also helps with quests that require you click on various things to interact with them or collect them. Pull all the mobs in an area, let my pet hold them while I run around and complete the quest objective. Tossing the occasional Multi-Shot and Dire Beast at the mobs to keep the damage going.

[Iridar 80]

3 hours ago, jmaster299 said:

Anecdotal experiences don't replace hard facts, you are also focusing on the entirely wrong point in the MM vs BM debate for Mythic+ Dungeons. The BM spec for Mythic+ is not designed around single target damage, so it winning or losing against MM on boss encounters in Mythic or Mythic+ is irrelavent. Also, your personal performance tells us nothing because we know nothing about the people you were playing with. Their class, spec, gear, skill, etc. 

The entire point of running Mythic+ as BM, with the gear, talent and Artifact build as described in the guide is because if you follow the guide, you will excel at clearing trash. And it's clearing trash that takes the most time in any dungeon, especially Mythic+. Not that my own anecdotal evidence means much, but to give you an example, I've been running Mythics with a Hunter in my guild who is better geared than I am but only plays MM. I'm 834 and last I checked he was like 845. On pulls with 1 or 2 mobs he typically beats me, but 3 or more mobs and I completely destroy him. By like 100,000 DPS. 

So, with better gear and a Artifact weapon much further progressed than my BM one that I stopped at 13 traits, I wipe the floor with him on trash packs with 3 or more mobs. I also have a MUCH easier time handling boss mechanics that require a lot of movement and end up beating him on certain single target fights. That's where the strength is for BM in Mythic Dungeons.

As for the solo'ing, since I leveled as BM I can't speak for how it compares to MM because I don't really know what it's like to level in this expac as MM. I've tried it a few times, and couldn't do nearly as much as I can as BM. I know BM fights my personal play style for leveling better, in that I can pull massive amounts of mobs and never have to worry about kiting or anything else for that matter. Just keep my pet healed, and I'm pulling 10+ mobs at a time. 

It's doubly useful as a Skinner, I can loot and skin as stuff dies, this helps prevent the snot nosed brats who like to steal skins. It also helps with quests that require you click on various things to interact with them or collect them. Pull all the mobs in an area, let my pet hold them while I run around and complete the quest objective. Tossing the occasional Multi-Shot and Dire Beast at the mobs to keep the damage going.

By "encounters" I meant clearing trash as well. MM has exceptional multi-target DPS, especially burst.

I leveled as MM, and it was just fine. MM gets a pet as well, and you can misdirect a pack of mobs with Barrage all the same, and then burst them all down. MM pet is way worse at holding aggro, though, so I had both a pet and Black Arrow.

To be honest, I have just looked up that mythic+ puts you on a timer. With that in mind, of course more consistent stacked AOE DPS of BM is important. 

[jmaster299 5]

4 hours ago, Iridar said:

By "encounters" I meant clearing trash as well. MM has exceptional multi-target DPS, especially burst.

I leveled as MM, and it was just fine. MM gets a pet as well, and you can misdirect a pack of mobs with Barrage all the same, and then burst them all down. MM pet is way worse at holding aggro, though, so I had both a pet and Black Arrow.

To be honest, I have just looked up that mythic+ puts you on a timer. With that in mind, of course more consistent stacked AOE DPS of BM is important. 

Yep, that's the TL:DR version of why BM > MM for Mythic+. As I mentioned before, trash is the most time consuming part of dungeons, clearing that trash quickly and effectively is more important than shaving a few seconds off a boss kill with better single target DPS. 

Edited September 9, 2016 by jmaster299
Added info *Edit seems broken, can't add what I'm trying to edit. If you are leveling MM with a regular pet, you are literally hurting yourself. The only benefit to MM while leveling is it's supposed to do more damage, but can't if u don't take Lone Wolf.

[Iridar 80]

6 hours ago, jmaster299 said:

Yep, that's the TL:DR version of why BM > MM for Mythic+. As I mentioned before, trash is the most time consuming part of dungeons, clearing that trash quickly and effectively is more important than shaving a few seconds off a boss kill with better single target DPS. 

I wasn't trying to make a point that MM > BM in anything. I said BM isn't THAT much better than MM in mythic+ dungeons to warrant a spec change for those who don't want to play BM. 

Believe it or not, not everyone is min-maxing everything 100% of the time, some people just want to play a certain spec, which is the reason I leveled as MM, not because I thought it was better in anything. 

Here are some sims for my gear. "Simple APL" stands for "Piercing Shot MM". 

5 targets:

7 targets:

It's unbelievable how close they are. Of course, BM would probably pull further ahead with more artifact points invested, I've gotten only up to Master of Beasts for soloing. And in general it has a bit more consistent AOE damage. For example, you can't always rely on being able to safely use Barrage, which is where a lot of MM's AOE budget is invested.

BM is better - yes, that's a given, but I don't see anything here that would scream "OMG BM IS GODLIKE SWITCH NOW".

Edited September 9, 2016 by Iridar

[jmaster299 5]

7 hours ago, Iridar said:

I wasn't trying to make a point that MM > BM in anything. I said BM isn't THAT much better than MM in mythic+ dungeons to warrant a spec change for those who don't want to play BM. 

Believe it or not, not everyone is min-maxing everything 100% of the time, some people just want to play a certain spec, which is the reason I leveled as MM, not because I thought it was better in anything. 

Here are some sims for my gear. "Simple APL" stands for "Piercing Shot MM". 

5 targets:

7 targets:

It's unbelievable how close they are. Of course, BM would probably pull further ahead with more artifact points invested, I've gotten only up to Master of Beasts for soloing. And in general it has a bit more consistent AOE damage. For example, you can't always rely on being able to safely use Barrage, which is where a lot of MM's AOE budget is invested.

BM is better - yes, that's a given, but I don't see anything here that would scream "OMG BM IS GODLIKE SWITCH NOW".

You need provide a lot more information than that for those sims to be valid. You give zero information as to things like Artifact progression or pull duration or CDs used. There is no "min/maxing required either to play BM. It has the exact same stat priority as MM Agi>Mastery>Haste, so the gear and gem choices are the same. And the BM Artifact only requires 13 traits/points put into it for it to beat MM. And without any effort at all you should have relics for it as well. I know this because I have +36 ilvl or higher relics with good bonuses for MM, even though I am doing dungeons as BM.

As I don't have 20 traits into my MM Artifact yet, any sims I do for myself would not be a fair comparison. But I know Azortharion has done all the sims, with 13 traits into BM and 20 into MM, and BM comes out on top. And, again, not only does BM beat MM in pure numbers, but is less likely to pull additional mobs and is easier to handle mechanics with on bosses. All 3 of those things combined make it the superior choice for Mythic+

Yes you can still get the job done as MM, but there is literally zero extra work required to play BM for Mythic+. The 6000 or so AP required for the first 13 traits is obtainable in a single day at 110. Hell, with just my first Research bonus I picked up over 11,000 AP in just 24 hours yesterday.

Edited September 9, 2016 by jmaster299

[Iridar 80]

6 hours ago, jmaster299 said:

You need provide a lot more information than that for those sims to be valid. You give zero information as to things like Artifact progression or pull duration or CDs used. There is no "min/maxing required either to play BM. It has the exact same stat priority as MM Agi>Mastery>Haste, so the gear and gem choices are the same. And the BM Artifact only requires 13 traits/points put into it for it to beat MM. And without any effort at all you should have relics for it as well. I know this because I have +36 ilvl or higher relics with good bonuses for MM, even though I am doing dungeons as BM.

As I don't have 20 traits into my MM Artifact yet, any sims I do for myself would not be a fair comparison. But I know Azortharion has done all the sims, with 13 traits into BM and 20 into MM, and BM comes out on top. And, again, not only does BM beat MM in pure numbers, but is less likely to pull additional mobs and is easier to handle mechanics with on bosses. All 3 of those things combined make it the superior choice for Mythic+

Yes you can still get the job done as MM, but there is literally zero extra work required to play BM for Mythic+. The 6000 or so AP required for the first 13 traits is obtainable in a single day at 110. Hell, with just my first Research bonus I picked up over 11,000 AP in just 24 hours yesterday.

Finally realized what people mean by "13 traits", up to Beast Cleave-enhancing traits. Didn't make sense to me before.

The question was never "if it's better", it was "better by how much". If DPS difference is too small, there's no point in playing a spec I don't like. Spec switching IS min/maxing.

Azor is a great authority when it comes to DPS, but he would give an arm and a leg if it increased his DPS by half percent. Not everyone has the same philosophy. At the end of the day, it's a game, and there's no point in playing a game you won't enjoy.

I've redone the sims. Again, my gear, standard simcraft rotation, 20 traits MM, 13 traits BM. Long fight duration so as not to complicate things.

3 targets:

5 targets:

Apparently, standard simcraft APL doesn't include Volley, had to add it. BM uses Volley by default, but it makes only for 4% of AOE damage, while MM relies on Barrage doing 26%. 

So again, BM is technically ahead, and it has less DPS variance as can be seen on the graph. It's also safer than Barrage MM while doing roughly the same AOE damage. BM would likely pull slightly further ahead with better relics, especially the Beast Cleave-oriented ones, since it holds about 35% of AOE damage for it.

Yeah, I can see a point in switching to BM for hardcore Mythic+ progression, but it's not an unquestionable dominance, and it shouldn't force players to switch to BM if they don't want to.

 

Edited September 10, 2016 by Iridar

[Azortharion 60]

Your sims are flawed, as is evident by the fact that you said "Volley isn't in the default APL", which it has been for months (indicating your version is ancient). I am also going to throw in a wild guess and say that while you optimized MM for AoE, you did not do the same for BM. And yeah, then there's the Furious Swipes relic thing.

19 MM vs 13 BM using my gear. MM artifact is significantly higher iLvl. Both have 3 relics, BM has 1 furious swipes relic.

3 targets

5 targets.

 

Not to mention that the BM AoE APL is pretty terrible (doesn't get the KC's off while maintaining Beast Cleave that I could), while the Marksmanship one is really quite good.

Aaand not to mention that MM won't have Trueshot for every pull which carries its multi-target damage. If you remove long cooldowns like that, BM is gonna be further ahead

[Iridar 80]

7 hours ago, Azortharion said:

Your sims are flawed, as is evident by the fact that you said "Volley isn't in the default APL", which it has been for months (indicating your version is ancient). I am also going to throw in a wild guess and say that while you optimized MM for AoE, you did not do the same for BM. And yeah, then there's the Furious Swipes relic thing.

19 MM vs 13 BM using my gear. MM artifact is significantly higher iLvl. Both have 3 relics, BM has 1 furious swipes relic.

3 targets

5 targets.

 

Not to mention that the BM AoE APL is pretty terrible (doesn't get the KC's off while maintaining Beast Cleave that I could), while the Marksmanship one is really quite good.

Aaand not to mention that MM won't have Trueshot for every pull which carries its multi-target damage. If you remove long cooldowns like that, BM is gonna be further ahead

I used a fresh version of simcraft (703-02), with APLs from sample profiles. They DO NOT have Volley. I didn't touch APLs beyond adding Volley. I'm on a quest for truth, not trying to force my point, so no foul play.

With a default fight length of 450s +/- 20% we should be looking at average DPS that doesn't depend too much on burst cooldowns, though I guess putting it on like 1 hour fight would give a better average.

Either way, thanks for clearing this up, we all trust your sims more than anyone else's.

The difference seems to grow with the number of targets, and while I'm not sure how much time we're gonna spend on 5+ targets, BM seems like a trivial spec with little to no investment cost, so I guess it couldn't hurt to switch to it for mythic+. 

I'm curious, did you run MM with Sidewinders or Piercing Shot?

[jmaster299 5]

19 hours ago, Iridar said:

-snip-

 

Yeah, the right relics really do make a difference, and would put BM ahead again at 3 targets. Those relics have a bigger impact on BM than they do for MM, as MM favors ilvl over specific bonuses. And you are right that playing what you like is important, but switching to a spec that requires zero additional work on the part of the player is not really Min/Maxing. At least IMO it's not, because, again, there is no extra work involved.

I'm gearing up for and leveling up my Artifact weapon for MM, all while playing BM. That, to me, is the big benefit of BM. I have an easier time in Mythic dungeons due to better mobility, and can offer more utility via things like pet taunts to save my tank on occasion, all while focusing on gearing up MM for raiding. And none of it hurts my performance in dungeons since the stat priority is the same for both specs.